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Topping Owners & Discussion Thread


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2 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

It’s brilliant.
a) The constant objection is that measurements are useless because they don’t tell us what we hear. Then, when in fact they do tell us what we hear, it’s dismissed as bias. 
 

b) The constant objection to ASR is that they never do listening tests. Then, when it’s shown that in fact they do quite a lot of listening tests, they are dismissed as being biased (EDIT 1: @Ittaku I know that's not quite what you said, I'm making a more general point about the objections that are made)

 

EDIT 2: @Muon N', you make an interesting point. Of course it's possible that knowing the measurements of a device may cause a bias - it's almost certain in fact. That's why I think any sighted listening comparison no matter who does it, should admit that it is biased.

On the other hand, many (all?) of the headphone amp listening comparisons done on ASR are done blind 

Boo, you're using me to make your point when you know full well that's not quite what I'm saying, but whatever...

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Sir Sanders - that listening test you cited seems to be a rare exception on that site? Hardly a valid point!

 

Certainly, with the Topping D90 there are only measurements following by a 'strong' recommendation to buy. Then 10 pages of post by followers eager to do so!

 

I find that very funny. But also a bit sad, considering the newbies who are sucked in by the hype.

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19 minutes ago, was_a said:

But also a bit sad, considering the newbies who are sucked in by the hype.

To be fair, newbies will be happy with whatever they buy, if they've done some reading before their purchase. They're reading a site that tells them it measures better than almost anything else on earth and is at an affordable price, and then post-purchase bias will make them love whatever they buy. They'll be happy in the knowledge they read it is the best and they can keep checking the site after they've bought it to continue feeling good about their purchase. And ultimately... there's nothing wrong with the sound of Topping DACs so I can't see them regretting anything. Contrast that with someone who spent a lot more and purchased a PS Audio directstream DAC after auditioning it and being happy with the sound, and then going online to find pages and pages of scathing comments about how badly it measures (and therefore sounds.)

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I understand what you're saying, but I disagree that they wouldn't regret buying the Topping. It's expensive for that budget-orientated brand. These are streamlined products, for want of a better word, with plenty of aesthetic appeal. But at the price of a D90 the competition has decent transformers and fully developed output stages - the basis of good sound. Topping relies on modern chip technology and clever marketing. Their cheaper DACs are great for budget setups and appropriately priced, but having heard the D50 and D70 models it is my strong opinion that these pricier products are over-priced. 

 

Another observation on the D90: first reviews mention the heavier case, so Topping has obviously invested in thicker aluminium...Window dressing, in my mind, when they could have doubled the size and used that to advantage. 

 

 

 

Edited by was_a
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50 minutes ago, was_a said:

Sir Sanders - that listening test you cited seems to be a rare exception on that site? Hardly a valid point!

 

Certainly, with the Topping D90 there are only measurements following by a 'strong' recommendation to buy. Then 10 pages of post by followers eager to do so!

 

I find that very funny. But also a bit sad, considering the newbies who are sucked in by the hype.

I might be wrong but I think they do listening tests on pretty much every headphone amp they measure.

 

In any event, if you believe that beyond a certain level of accuracy, all dacs will sound the same then why should they bother with listening tests? You can't really criticise them for than can you?

I do like ASR (just so you know my bias :) ) but given that so many DACs they measure are "accurate enough" I wish they'd measure more of the other components 

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1 hour ago, Ittaku said:

Boo, you're using me to make your point when you know full well that's not quite what I'm saying, but whatever...

Sure, but you did say that they "always say that everything sounds the same". They certainly don't say that 

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Just now, sir sanders zingmore said:

Sure, but you did say that they "always say that everything sounds the same". They certainly don't say that 

Okay if we're going to get pedantic - they always say everything sounds the same, when it's above the magic thresholds they list as the human hearing limits.

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1 minute ago, Ittaku said:

Okay if we're going to get pedantic - they always say everything sounds the same, when it's above the magic thresholds they list as the human hearing limits.

surely the only contentious thing about saying that is about what those thresholds are?

We aren't really needing to debate that humans can hear things below the limits of where humans can hear things, are we?

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1 minute ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

surely the only contentious thing about saying that is about what those thresholds are?

We aren't really needing to debate that humans can hear things below the limits of where humans can hear things, are we?

Well, with two pieces of equipment with a dynamic range above 90dB and noise/distortion below -90dB, and linearity down to -90dB, do they all sound the same?

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Guest Muon N'

Marketing departments have been using numbers to sell to the public on mass for decades, better numbers means better product they like us to think, and we all know that is often been marketing deception.

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23 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

I might be wrong but I think they do listening tests on pretty much every headphone amp they measure.

 

In any event, if you believe that beyond a certain level of accuracy, all dacs will sound the same then why should they bother with listening tests? You can't really criticise them for than can you?

I do like ASR (just so you know my bias :) ) but given that so many DACs they measure are "accurate enough" I wish they'd measure more of the other components 

Aren't we talking about DACs? 

 

They believe that all DACs sound the same, yet I can't criticise them for that?? 

 

Of course I do!! Don't you??

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6 minutes ago, was_a said:

Aren't we talking about DACs? 

no. The comment was made that they don't do listening tests

 

6 minutes ago, was_a said:

They believe that all DACs sound the same, yet I can't criticise them for that?? 

You can criticise as much as you like, but surely you understand that if they believe that then it makes no sense for them to perform listening tests on DACs. 

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Sorry, Sir Sanders, but you seem to cite others' words and phrases out of context or to suit your argument. You brought up 'criticism', not me! That was a little sneaky of you, wouldn't you say?

 

So, speaking about criticism, you haven't addressed my question: aren't you critical of the fact they believe all DACs sound the same? 

 

 

Edited by was_a
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27 minutes ago, was_a said:

Sorry, Sir Sanders, but you seem to cite others' words and phrases out of context or to suit your argument. You brought up 'criticism', not me! That was a little sneaky of you, wouldn't you say?

 

So, speaking about criticism, you haven't addressed my question: aren't you critical of the fact they believe all DACs sound the same? 

 

 

People certainly do criticise them. If you don’t, then I apologise for implying that you do. 
 

Regarding your question, as per the quote what I quoted from their tests of the PS Audio DAC, they don’t believe all DACs sound the same. 

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11 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

People certainly do criticise them. If you don’t, then I apologise for implying that you do. 
 

Regarding your question, as per the quote what I quoted from their tests of the PS Audio DAC, they don’t believe all DACs sound the same. 

Yikes! It was you who said they think that all DACs sound the same! 

 

Also, I wonder if you could answer my question to you? Or is that not possible?

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Just now, was_a said:

Yikes! It was you who said they think that all DACs sound the same! 

 

Also, I wonder if you could answer my question to you? Or is that not possible?

I think they think that all DACs sound the same if they aren’t “broken” (ie measure sufficiently well ). 
 

I pretty much agree with that 

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Okay so you're of the belief the D10 at $100 sounds the same as say a Chord DAVE at $18k. Why even bother discussing the even better measuring D90?

 

/me tosses more straws at the man

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4 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

Okay so you're of the belief the D10 at $100 sounds the same as say a Chord DAVE at $18k. Why even bother discussing the even better measuring D90?

 

/me tosses more straws at the man

I replaced a level 3 Kitsune tuned Holo DAC with a topping D10. 

I also heard the D10 against a Meitner. 
If there was a sound difference I didn’t feel it was enough to justify the dollar difference. 

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Just now, sir sanders zingmore said:

I’m trying to temper the way I express my opinions lest I upset people :)

"Yes" would have sufficed. I've been trying to set you up to say that, why won't you oblige?

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