Ethernet switches for audio - Part B: why a regular switch will suffice.

[Ittaku]

7 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

Con, you have an extremely expensive DAC very specifically engineered to deal with these sorts of issues. If I'd paid what you paid for yours and a $4 Ethernet cable way upstream made a snot of difference, I'd be an extremely aggrieved customer. This said the market for people with your DAC is small.

I heard the audophile ethernet switch in a system where the ethernet cable went straight into the speakers themselves and were actively amplified in a system that cost much less than mine and should have been the most prone to the effect of network based noise possible, AND had had rave reviews about the improvements that it caused. The owner of the system graciously allowed me to audition his system with and without the switch and I heard no difference in any configuration which means it can only be one or two of the following:

1. I'm too deaf to hear the difference - which is possible given my right ear impairment.

2. The owner suffered from positive expectation bias.

3. I suffered from negative expectation bias.

Given that was in a system that had a mechanism for possibly benefiting from isolation, it rips my heart out to see people obsessing about changes that cannot benefit from isolation, and fussing over a myriad of other ethernet things that can't possibly affect sound, but then this is for the same market that is... well whatever, I've started ranting now so I'll butt out again.

[Guest rmpfyf]

10 minutes ago, Dacman said:

i didnt say i have no idea how they work....i do....however what i did say is listen before you make a call... like it or not leave it to your ears. again i stand by my products and if you listen to them and dont like them then so be it....

OK then - purely to foster a discussion here - how do you think they work?

[Guest rmpfyf]

10 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

I heard the audophile ethernet switch in a system where the ethernet cable went straight into the speakers themselves and were actively amplified in a system that cost much less than mine and should have been the most prone to the effect of network based noise possible, AND had had rave reviews about the improvements that it caused. The owner of the system graciously allowed me to audition his system with and without the switch and I heard no difference in any configuration which means it can only be one or two of the following:

1. I'm too deaf to hear the difference - which is possible given my right ear impairment.

2. The owner suffered from positive expectation bias.

3. I suffered from negative expectation bias.

Given that was in a system that had a mechanism for possibly benefiting from isolation, it rips my heart out to see people obsessing about changes that cannot benefit from isolation, and fussing over a myriad of other ethernet things that can't possibly affect sound, but then this is for the same market that is... well whatever, I've started ranting now so I'll butt out again.

 

There is nothing intrinsic about the combination  you mention that suggests it's 'most prone' to network-based noise. 

 

All three outcomes are possible. 

 

Audible differences are possible. Whether so in a given scenario... TBD.

[dbastin]

On ‎30‎/‎01‎/‎2020 at 5:01 AM, recur said:

I’m semi tempted to get some white box Broadcom switches

I'd be interested to try this, maybe not necessarily broadcom, we were discussing Ubiquiti earlier, and there's others.

 

How about choose a switch with a SFP port and DC input, configure it the best possible, and worh out the cost including expert time..

 

We could use this thread to reach consensus about the selection of a switch and configuration settings etc, tapping into the experience of SNA members.

 

Then actually try it ... rather than talk/debate about it.

 

We'd need to choose a total cost too. It may be a gamble - audiophile switches may perform better at similar cost.

 

I'd suggest aim for a total cost under AU$600, bearing in mind the cost 'audiophile' switches.  

 

Who's in?

Edited January 31, 2020 by dbastin
typo

[Dacman]

2 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

I heard the audophile ethernet switch in a system where the ethernet cable went straight into the speakers themselves and were actively amplified in a system that cost much less than mine and should have been the most prone to the effect of network based noise possible, AND had had rave reviews about the improvements that it caused. The owner of the system graciously allowed me to audition his system with and without the switch and I heard no difference in any configuration which means it can only be one or two of the following:

1. I'm too deaf to hear the difference - which is possible given my right ear impairment.

2. The owner suffered from positive expectation bias.

3. I suffered from negative expectation bias.

Given that was in a system that had a mechanism for possibly benefiting from isolation, it rips my heart out to see people obsessing about changes that cannot benefit from isolation, and fussing over a myriad of other ethernet things that can't possibly affect sound, but then this is for the same market that is... well whatever, I've started ranting now so I'll butt out again.

theres a fourth option IT ACTUALLY MADE NO DIFFERENCE...and im not yelling lol.....i dont know your system but if you are using tidal and roon and are willing to hear my switches i will endorse your opinion provided we have consensus on the day and an independent uninterested/unbiased listener should be present.

[Ittaku]

Just now, Dacman said:

theres a fourth option IT ACTUALLY MADE NO DIFFERENCE...and im not yelling lol.....i dont know your system but if you are using tidal and roon and are willing to hear my switches i will endorse your opinion provided we have consensus on the day and an independent uninterested/unbiased listener should be present.

Number 2 implies that. I'm sorry for not explicitly saying so.

[Assisi]

7 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

@Assisi

 

I have no doubt what you're hearing is legitimate. None whatsoever. I run some Ethernet conditioning myself, and for the tweakers out there I have some nice good Rakon 25MHz OXCOs that could work a treat for many switches.

 

All I'm suggesting is to consider what they're actually doing and whether there are more direct means.

 

Lower noise - conducted from source and EMI - and better packet timing. That's it. If I've missed any other mechanisms of operation it'd be a great discussion point.

 

The noise bit - nothing is going to beat optical. Ever. Physically not possible. There may be bits to optimise at the device ends (what it plugs into) and some people just can't do it as they've devices that simply won't accommodate it. But I can't in good conscience spend megadollars on Ethernet cabling when a solution exists for this. It's a super bandaid. Most of us use CAT8 and other STP forms poorly for this.

 

The timing part sure, I get it. It's the same fundamental mechanism that drives audiophile software builds - jitter. Others eg @recur suggest industrial grade switches with separate PHY per port and dedicated ASICs are the way. They are not wrong - similar principles are used on audiophile USB transports, and on the etherREGEN. You could crack one open and go for better clocks or linear supplies I guess, but the Paul Pang method - putting the same on consumer grade hardware - whilst directionally correct is simply akin to putting lipstick on a pig. Not bad but there's better.

 

The etherREGEN is designed so as not to be perfect but to reflect the usual compromises associated with a home system. I'd go optical into it simply as to resist any temptation to spend silly money in that cable, and then as short a run as possible into whatever streams. A quarter metre, literally.

 

If you're going into a customisable PC it's optical all the way! But most of us... Aren't.

 

I take it you dropped speed to 100Mbps for your tests?

 

There have been many posts on this forum and others that deny the benefit of Audio quality switches etc.  For some time now I have not posted on Stereonet about things that I have tried and the results.  Too often the responses were, that is just opinion, where are the measurements or you are just biased.  I posted previously purely so that people could aware of my experience which to me is as valid any other.  I posted yesterday about the switches purely because the experience was just palpable.  If I go down the path of getting a serious switch based on yesterday experience, I predict that it will be the best cost Vs performance outcome for my system that I have ever done.  My DAC which is a Weiss Medus, is in the serious league, as is the rest of my system. 

 

I do wonder how many who post rely on either theory or their particular technical networking expertise without having tried quality audio switches?  It seems to me posters with the technical knowledge or networking experience seem to be focussed on the why it can’t be so.  Maybe the focus could be more towards if it is so why.  Just have a look at the Roon forum and the thread. 

“Do router and ethernet cables affect sound quality?”

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-router-and-ethernet-cables-affect-sound-quality/92544/15

I have read many of the posts about networking on forums, understood some but as a consequence of the reading I had a reasonable degree of scepticism as to what to expect with the two switches trialled yesterday.  I said in my previous post I know virtually nothing about the technical aspects of switches etc.  I had to find out what an OCXO and TCXO.  I think I mixed up which Paul Pang switch has to which clock has what  in my previous post.

I do not know what:

"...separate PHY per port and dedicated ASICs are the way." means.

I just try things and listen and form my own position on what I hear.

I am certain that anybody on Stereonet who listened to my system would be impressed.  Three people have recently heard my system and each was very positive about the result that I have achieved.  I am sure that the switches did not fix any discernible inherent problem in my system.  The switches somehow provided a serious but totally unexpected benefit.

     You asked the question "I take it you dropped speed to 100Mbps for your tests?"

No.  Why

 

 

John

 

[Assisi]

15 hours ago, dbastin said:

n case you havent seen this, go here.  If I missed a switch in the list, let me know.

@dbastin,

 

I am very aware of your list and thank you for preparing it.  I have read many of the links that are on the list and more.  The matter of an audio quality switch for me is work in progress.  The SoTM interests me because of the AudioBacon review and it has 2 optical ports whereas the Paul Pang do not  

 

John

[Ittaku]

19 minutes ago, Dacman said:

great so how can you comment on the impact of a switch on tidal?

Do we have to go down that rabbit hole again? Some of us are scientists, engineers, software engineers... and know how this stuff works. I also was open enough to auditioning it on a system that had it in spite of myself.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Ittaku

[Guest rmpfyf]

48 minutes ago, dbastin said:

I'd suggest aim for a total cost under AU$600, besring in mind the cost 'audiophile' switches.  

 

Bespoke engineering and that these are enterprise-grade hardware might not make for that limit  

[Dacman]

1 minute ago, Ittaku said:

Do we have to go down that rabbit hole again? Some of us are scientists, engineers, software engineers... and know how this stuff works. I also was open enough to auditioning it on a system that had it in spite of myself.

wow very impressive scientists engineers software engineers....great.... please read my other posts in this thread and attend the actual demo, back to @Assisi 's comment on his observations....are they not valid? and btw your qualifications still do not qualify you to comment on the impact of an audio ethernet switch on tidal. lets see scientists, they conduct actual tests dont they? if you dont like rabbit holes dont comment

[Ittaku]

7 minutes ago, Dacman said:

wow very impressive scientists engineers software engineers....great.... please read my other posts in this thread and attend the actual demo, back to @Assisi 's comment on his observations....are they not valid? and btw your qualifications still do not qualify you to comment on the impact of an audio ethernet switch on tidal. lets see scientists, they conduct actual tests dont they? if you dont like rabbit holes dont comment

Like I said, let's not go there. Feel free to wander off in whatever direction you want. In the audiophile world science and facts take a back seat at all times and you're not allowed to argue them so I won't bother since auditioning is king (which as I said earlier, I did in spite of myself.)

[Guest rmpfyf]

33 minutes ago, Assisi said:

 

There have been many posts on this forum and others that deny the benefit of Audio quality switches etc.  For some time now I have not posted on Stereonet about things that I have tried and the results.  Too often the responses were, that is just opinion, where are the measurements or you are just biased.  I posted previously purely so that people could aware of my experience which to me is as valid any other.  I posted yesterday about the switches purely because the experience was just palpable.  If I go down the path of getting a serious switch based on yesterday experience, I predict that it will be the best cost Vs performance outcome for my system that I have ever done.  My DAC which is a Weiss Medus, is in the serious league, as is the rest of my system. 

 

 

I do wonder how many who post rely on either theory or their particular technical networking expertise without having tried quality audio switches?  It seems to me posters with the technical knowledge or networking experience seem to be focussed on the why it can’t be so.  Maybe the focus could be more towards if it is so why.  Just have a look at the Roon forum and the thread. 

 

“Do router and ethernet cables affect sound quality?”

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-router-and-ethernet-cables-affect-sound-quality/92544/15

 

I have read many of the posts about networking on forums, understood some but as a consequence of the reading I had a reasonable degree of scepticism as to what to expect with the two switches trialled yesterday.  I said in my previous post I know virtually nothing about the technical aspects of switches etc.  I had to find out what an OCXO and TCXO.  I think I mixed up which Paul Pang switch has to which clock has what  in my previous post.

 

I do not know what:

 

"...separate PHY per port and dedicated ASICs are the way." means.

 

 

I just try things and listen and form my own position on what I hear.

 

I am certain that anybody on Stereonet who listened to my system would be impressed.  Three people have recently heard my system and each was very positive about the result that I have achieved.  I am sure that the switches did not fix any discernible inherent problem in my system.  The switches somehow provided a serious but totally unexpected benefit.

 

     You asked the question "I take it you dropped speed to 100Mbps for your tests?"

 

No.  Why

 

 

 

 

John

 

 

 

John, 

 

IMHO at what the Medus costs it'd be fair to expect a better effort in clocking signals. 

 

I'd drop the speed because your effective jitter should fall usefully, which can be audible. 

[dbastin]

30 minutes ago, Assisi said:

It seems to me posters with the technical knowledge or networking experience seem to be focussed on the why it can’t be so.  Maybe the focus could be more towards if it is so why. 

Thanks for your observations and experiences.

 

I set this thread up for these debates to occur.  In hindsight I should have included in my opening thread ...

 

Please share you suggestions for optimising regular switches for audio, and experiences with their sound quality, ideally in comparison to switches on the list in Part A.

 

I am hopeful this thread can generate some solid recomnendations for those not interesred in the switches listed in Part A.  Such as, good switches, configurations, tweaks, etc.

 

Maybe the thread should be called ... how a regular switch will suffice.

[dbastin]

6 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

But how do they work?

Do we really need to understand how they work? To mimic?

 

All I need to understand is If I hear a benefit. 

[Guest rmpfyf]

56 minutes ago, Dacman said:

the components are upgraded and they have good quality clocks installed....as opposed to standard switches

What's upgraded, exactly? Clocks are a jitter argument. How far do you recommend people install them from their transport?

 

52 minutes ago, dbastin said:

Do we really need to understand how they work? To mimic?

 

All I need to understand is If I hear a benefit. 

Mimic, no. Some of us can't spend so easily in lieu of understanding is all. Not a critique of others.

[Dacman]

1 hour ago, Ittaku said:

Like I said, let's not go there. Feel free to wander off in whatever direction you want. In the audiophile world science and facts take a back seat at all times and you're not allowed to argue them so I won't bother since auditioning is king (which as I said earlier, I did in spite of myself.)

"lets not go there"  'feel free to wander off in whatever direction" very scientific lol why are you even commenting if you cant use one of these switches in your system?

[Assisi]

1 hour ago, rmpfyf said:

 

John, 

 

IMHO at what the Medus costs it'd be fair to expect a better effort in clocking signals. 

 

I'd drop the speed because your effective jitter should fall usefully, which can be audible. 

I have no idea as to the degree of clocking level that the Medus achieves.  All I know is that the outcome from the DAC is wonderful.  For me it is about everything that is on my local network  before any signal reaches the DAC. 

 

How do I reduce the network speed?  I am sure that it may be simple matter for you Ric but not so for me.  There are 5 devices networked plus a Netgear switch and the optical couplers that do have dip switches for speed. 

 

John

[Guest rmpfyf]

2 hours ago, Assisi said:

I have no idea as to the degree of clocking level that the Medus achieves.  All I know is that the outcome from the DAC is wonderful.  For me it is about everything that is on my local network  before any signal reaches the DAC. 

 

How do I reduce the network speed?  I am sure that it may be simple matter for you Ric but not so for me.  There are 5 devices networked plus a Netgear switch and the optical couplers that do have dip switches for speed. 

 

John

 

Depends what you've got

 

What's the last switch before the DAC? You may be able to login and set a maximum speed on a given port. Shoot over a make/model and let's dig into a manual together.

[dbastin]

So you could be comparing:

- Netgear (base)

- EtherRegen

- Paul Pang x 2

- EX/CX internal switches.

 

Sounds fun, I wish I wasn't so far away.  Any chance one of you can try to get a Melco S100 to try too?

Given the switches being compared, maybe report your findings in Part A.

[Stereophilus]

2 minutes ago, dbastin said:

So you could be comparing:

- Netgear (base)

- EtherRegen

- Paul Pang x 2

- EX/CX internal switches.

 

Sounds fun, I wish I wasn't so far away.  Any chance one of you can try to get a Melco S100 to try too?

Given the switches being compared, maybe report your findings in Part A.

No problem.  Anyone got a Melco switch who can help out, or wants to join the fun?

[Dacman]

12 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

Lol, yes, I know.  My comment “I will contact Dacman...” was addressed to the forum, but I flagged it poorly.
 

Im looking forward to the comparison.  Thanks for accomodating this.

yes sorry i took the opportunity for my gladiator moment 

[dbastin]

15 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

Anyone got a Melco switch who can help out

See my post yesterday at 10.27am.  BMC Distributors.  They may not have one in Australia.  They cost $3500.

[Stereophilus]

2 minutes ago, dbastin said:

See my post yesterday at 10.27am.  BMC Distributors.  They may not have one in Australia.  They cost $3500.

Noted, although I don’t think I’ll be buying one at that price tbh.

[frednork]

21 minutes ago, dbastin said:

So you could be comparing:

- Netgear (base)

- EtherRegen

- Paul Pang x 2

- EX/CX internal switches.

 

Sounds fun, I wish I wasn't so far away.  Any chance one of you can try to get a Melco S100 to try too?

Given the switches being compared, maybe report your findings in Part A.

looking forward to the reports