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Ethernet switches - PartA: Switches List, info & Experience


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1 hour ago, Miyajima Smith said:

Also made another DAC sound Sting Stinggggggg

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These are high up there in the ultra highend spectrum. 
Can you give us infor re your setup and how JCat Switches improve the system?

 

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3 minutes ago, Chanh said:

These are high up there in the ultra highend spectrum. 
Can you give us infor re your setup and how JCat Switches improve the system?

 

The M12 gold switch is Telegaertner Japan...not Jcat Switches, Jcat just distribute for Telegaertner M12 gold switch in Poland 

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3 hours ago, Miyajima Smith said:

The M12 gold switch is Telegaertner Japan...not Jcat Switches, Jcat just distribute for Telegaertner M12 gold switch in Poland 

I was reading Marcin (of JCAT) on Whats Best Forum where he stated JCAT is the only/exclusive distributor of M12 switch in Europe and USA.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/m12-gold-switch.29842/page-11

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47 minutes ago, dbastin said:

I was reading Marcin (of JCAT) on Whats Best Forum where he stated JCAT is the only/exclusive distributor of M12 switch in Europe and USA.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/m12-gold-switch.29842/page-11

Jcat base in Poland , However M12 gold is not Jcat switch 

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The new PhoenixNet switch/reclocker finally arrived in country last week, mine arrived today. I’ll put up first, second, third and by tomorrow arvo possibly even a bloody fourth impression.

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0AEA7D48-C92C-44F2-924F-F1CB517CE22D.jpeg

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Well the Phoenixnet switch /reclocker actually arrived Sunday by Courier, after having had a number of discussions and trying out various switches in my system with Bruce (BAM) recently I decided to ring him and invite him over for the grand plugging in of the much anticipated by me new Phoenixnet.


An hour later Bruce arrived and I plugged the Phoenixnet in.
 

Lesson one always read the manual first, as per normal I didn’t so I plugged it in how I thought it should go and yes it worked but to say it was disappointing was an understatement. The sound had retreated to constrained, even thin sounding with some added sibilance and a little harshness, but with plenty of detail but not that nice, so yes I was disappointed.
 

Bruce is far more organised and patient than I so he read the manual while I sat around complaining and after he pointed out that I had plugged it in incorrectly we plugged it in the way the manual says to and the sq improved but not enough to get excited, out of frustration and some prompting from Bruce I unplugged it and plugged the Paul Pang switch back in, conclusion the Pang switch while less detailed was nicer to listen to. Bugger!

 

So I plugged the Phoenixnet back in and walked off and just left the system playing in the back ground.
Lesson two and a well known one to even an impatient me, never judge a brand new electronic component in the first period of use. 
Six plus hours later I came back and the transition from sounding harsh, sibilant and constrained had greatly improved. The improved detail was there, but even better, the sound stage had started to really open up and that constrained sound delivery had pretty much disappeared. There was still some increased sibilance in one test track in male vocals, not female vocals though.

 

So I have just left it running since and it keeps improving, how much?
By tonight my system had not previously sounded nearly so good. I have never heard this much refined, for the want of a better word almost sweet sounding, detail and depth before from a Streamer.
Previously the Phoenix USB reclocker had made a really impressive improvement to sq with the Zenith, as well as with the Aries G2.1 and because of that I ordered the new Net version as soon as I read about its imminent release and now I’m very glad I did. The Pang switch and yes I only have the entry level one is now not in the running, the sq improvement now the PheonixNet is nearly run in has to be heard to be appreciated.

 

To back this up earlier today I rang the distributor and told him what I had originally found, he told me, like Bruce had, to be patient and that on average it takes a good three days for them to settle and start to sound the way they should from cold.
 

It turns out that Innuos recommend leaving their reclockers on 24/7 and never turning them off, as they work best at a certain internal temperature.
 

So my experience with the PheonixNet started off more than a bit rocky but that was impatience that caused my frustration and it was no fault of the brand new PheonixNet.
I should mention that I am presently running the Zenith with the PhoenixNet through a Mola Mola Makua Pre with the Tambaqui Dac and then to ATC 100 actives, this is a system that delivers detail in spades and doesn’t gloss over any music production imperfections.
Added to that last week I fitted Isoacoustic Gaia 1 footers to the ATC’s and they even further raised the resolution levels the system delivers. This is what I added the brand new PheonixNet to so really I shouldn’t have been surprised that I wasn’t going to like the sound when it was first being run in.

 

Am I glad I went down the PheonixNet path? yes I very much am. Again my system has never sounded nearly so good. To try and put things in perspective, I loaned the demo Phoenix USB reclocker out just after first getting it and yes I missed it, however I’m not sure I would loan the Net version one out as I wouldn’t want to now hear my system without it.

 

Anyway enough of my excited ramblings.

 

 

cheers,

Terry

 

*PS ... 1. How does the PhoenixNet switch compare to all the other top end switches out there? Apart from a bass model Paul Pang and my memories of a Aqvox (?] I can’t say.
2. I’ll report back how the reclocker is going after a few more days of running in.

Edited by TerryO
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First up, my apologies, I wrote most of the above at 3am this morning so I hope it makes sense, and rather than adding another PS about points I forgot to add originally I decided to add another post.

 

I have watched and read various posts with interest about daisy chaining switches and Bruce proved it did make a positive difference when he, a couple of weeks ago, came over with his Aqvox(?) switch and we tried it with the Paul Pang.  One of the reasons I was keen to find out how good the new PheonixNet might be was because, while I understood that daisy chaining could work I didn’t want to end up going down that path.
When announced the PheonixNet instantly got my interest because I was looking for a high end one box solution, which for me I have now found.


Plus, with the start up of GC HiFi in part I am now a Innuos dealer so it was a no brainer to order one.

 

cheers,

Terry

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10 hours ago, TerryO said:

Mola Mola Makua Pre with the Tambaqui Dac

Very interesting to hear of your adventure.

You've got quite a system there.  Do you have the streamer built in too?

What is the signal/data path from source to DAC?  What cables?  Router?

Maybe you should have a GTG with deepthought to compare with the EtherRegen he has. 

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7 hours ago, TerryO said:

I have watched and read various posts with interest about daisy chaining switches

 I have increased my switch chain yet again over Easter.  The chain now is

 

NBN Router Modem > Ethernet Link >Waversa Router/Switch non battery side Port > Waversa battery side Port > Ethernet Link > Renolabs Switch > Ethernet Link > Paul Pang Quad Switch > Ethernet >Silent Angle Bonn N8 >Weiss Man 301 or Weiss DSP 502. 

 

The Renolabs is just over a week old whilst the Waversa is only 3 days out of the box.  Each of them are still settling in.  The Waversa is seriously good.  It is a keeper and if I only used one switch this would be it.  The Silent angle is last in the chain to add just a little sweetening at the end.  The surprising thing to me is that each of the switches has its own signature and the final out come is a combination of the lot. 

 

I was interested in optical hence the Renolbabs was ordered with a FMC stage.  At this time my inclination is that Ethernet only is better.  I did have the opportunity to also include a Melco switch but decided enough is enough for the time being. 

John

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17 minutes ago, Assisi said:

 I have increased my switch chain yet again over Easter.  The chain now is

 

NBN Router Modem > Ethernet Link >Waversa Router/Switch non battery side Port > Waversa battery side Port > Ethernet Link > Renolabs Switch > Ethernet Link > Paul Pang Quad Switch > Ethernet >Silent Angle Bonn N8 >Weiss Man 301 or Weiss DSP 502. 

 

The Renolabs is just over a week old whilst the Waversa is only 3 days out of the box.  Each of them are still settling in.  The Waversa is seriously good.  It is a keeper and if I only used one switch this would be it.  The Silent angle is last in the chain to add just a little sweetening at the end.  The surprising thing to me is that each of the switches has its own signature and the final out come is a combination of the lot. 

 

I was interested in optical hence the Renolbabs was ordered with a FMC stage.  At this time my inclination is that Ethernet only is better.  I did have the opportunity to also include a Melco switch but decided enough is enough for the time being. 

John

 

Is that the Waversa Router you are referring to?  If so, i would get rid of your NBN router and use the Waversa in its place.

 

It sounds like overkill... 7 different audiophile switches in series... the PP quad accounting for 4 of those.  Wow.

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20 minutes ago, Stereophilus said:

I sounds like overkill... 7 different audiophile switches in series... the PP quad accounting for 4 of those.  Wow.

Now, now that is not fair counting the Quad as 4. He does not have SEVEN, only FOUR!  ? ? ? 

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48 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Now, now that is not fair counting the Quad as 4. He does not have SEVEN, only FOUR!  ? ? ? 

@Assisi has left me feeling inadequate with my sole Renolabs!,?

 

I have mixed feelings however on extra links in the chain, and fear I'd be confused by which was providing the most benefit. ?

Very happy with how it's currently sounding, but would be interested in swapping over 1 or 2 only! ?

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2 hours ago, Stereophilus said:

Is that the Waversa Router you are referring to? 

The term Router might not be accurate.  I assume it is this ... which is a dual switch and a streamer as well. 

https://www.kevalinaudio.com/product-page/waversa-wrouter

 

Hmm, this could be interesting.

https://waversasystems.com/archives/6890

 

PS.  @AssisiMaybe try this

 

NBN Router Modem > Ethernet Link >Silent Angle Bonn N8 > Ethernet Link > Renolabs Switch > Ethernet Link > Paul Pang Quad Switch > Ethernet >Waversa Router/Switch non battery side Port > Waversa USB or SPDIF out > Weiss DSP 502. 

 

If you must use the MAN301, plug it into the Waversa.

Edited by dbastin
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This post is in respect a couple of the posts related to my post above about my present setup.  I can easily understand why it may be considered that a number of switches in chain is possibly an overkill.  Without my recent experience I probably would think the same.  I may be deluding myself.  I do not think so.  It is all about the synergy of the sum of the parts.  More is better.  How much more is too much?


 

I haven’t been able to listen to my system for over 24 hours.  I have just turned it on.  It is better than I have every heard it. Probably more settling in has occurred.


 

Networking and switches and cables is topic on which there are various perspectives.  Many network experts are sceptical of the benefits.  Through fortuitous chance I have come across a person with considerable networking knowledge.  He owns a networking company in Melbourne.  More importantly he has a big interest in audio.  His speakers are the same as mine.  He has the same three Weiss boxes as I do, he has Soultions amplification plus numerous switches including a Waversa.  His network setup is far in advance of mine with clocks etc.  I have not heard his system yet but I am told the outcome is seriously special.  I have a lot to learn.


 

With the Waversa whilst it is named as a router, I am just using it as switch.  I know that it can do other things such as ROON ready and act as a NAS.  I had wondered about the Telegartner M12 gold.  The cost put me off.  The Waversa is almost the same cost does more and uses normal ethernet cables.  Which is better?  Who knows?  I still need the NBN router for my home phone.  The network expert above has said to me that the best thing I can do in my situation at the moment is install a separate device for house wifi and turn the wifi off on the NBN router.  Wifi on the router potentially creates noise on my network.  As well wifi slows the router response times.


 

Both my new found networking expert and my system curator are adamant that the Waversa which is the best must come first in the chain.  The DSP 502 has gone way for a couple of weeks for someone  try it.  The MAN 301 is superior into the DAC.  Whilst things are settling in, I will leave things as they are.  Settling in can take weeks.  Meanwhile I may try optical again.


 

I am very happy with where I am now with the networking aspect of my system.  I have said that before though.

John

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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19 hours ago, dbastin said:

Very interesting to hear of your adventure.

You've got quite a system there.  Do you have the streamer built in too?

What is the signal/data path from source to DAC?  What cables?  Router?

Maybe you should have a GTG with deepthought to compare with the EtherRegen he has. 


Hi Dale,

 

Yes the Makua with Tambaqui is a Roon end point, in this configuration with the PheonixNet I am only using Ethernet cables from the PheonixNet to the Zenith, then same to Makua.
 

I am actually using some locally made prototype Ethernet cables in my system, they are very revealing in a good way, Bruce’s Audioquest cable when compared was just a bit smoother, a little less revealing if anything but still very nice, the difference in SQ was small. I do like the Audioquest cable.

 

I just tried the Pang switch feeding into the PheonixNet to see how that turned out, it made a difference, more rounded off, with less detail, not bad sounding, actually some might prefer it but for me it’s hard to lose the level of detail and depth provided by the PheonixNet on its own. To hear either male or female voicing in my system now is so good.
 

I speak with Deep Thought on a regular basis, we often swap gear to try out in each other’s systems, apart from being a good bloke he knows way more about this hobby and tweaking than I ever will.

 

cheers,

Terry

 

PS. Yesterday by chance I played some early Elton John albums by mistake through Roon and since the installation of the PheonixNet they are now very good to listen to. I had given up on listening to any Eltie on either streaming or CD apart from one or two very early Obi pressings. But now I can listen to Madman Across the Water all day long.

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18 hours ago, Assisi said:

 I have increased my switch chain yet again over Easter.  The chain now is

 

NBN Router Modem > Ethernet Link >Waversa Router/Switch non battery side Port > Waversa battery side Port > Ethernet Link > Renolabs Switch > Ethernet Link > Paul Pang Quad Switch > Ethernet >Silent Angle Bonn N8 >Weiss Man 301 or Weiss DSP 502. 

 

The Renolabs is just over a week old whilst the Waversa is only 3 days out of the box.  Each of them are still settling in.  The Waversa is seriously good.  It is a keeper and if I only used one switch this would be it.  The Silent angle is last in the chain to add just a little sweetening at the end.  The surprising thing to me is that each of the switches has its own signature and the final out come is a combination of the lot. 

 

I was interested in optical hence the Renolbabs was ordered with a FMC stage.  At this time my inclination is that Ethernet only is better.  I did have the opportunity to also include a Melco switch but decided enough is enough for the time being. 

John

 

Hi John, I absolutely agree with multiple switches. I have an etherregen >  SOTM > CISCO all linked by Shunyata Ethernet cables.  The SOTM and Etherregen are powered by SBooster LPS fed by Shunyata cabling.  The effect is massive. I would love to have less "equipment" but the difference is very significant with the cascading units.  Some forums overseas swear by the method - which is where I got the inspiration to give it a try.  I use it on HT too and the effect on video is remarkable.  An audio dealer friend of mine said that cascading data is very different to multi power and interconnect links where "more" is often detrimental. It is definitely not the case with switches. You get refinement upon refinement. It isn't a cheap exersize but unless you "fix" the source, you cannot adjust it back downstream. Proper power cabling a must. 

 

A quick question regarding the router. I use the stock Telstra Gateway (although fed by an Sbooster and grounded). Would the Waversa  work as a replacement? ie stream netflix, you tube , computer duties etc.... Thx 

 

By the way - very worthwhile to use an LPS /quality PC on the NBN box. Really big gains to be had there.  I use FARAD 3. Awesome. 

Edited by andresz
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As Terry said previously, the recommendation for the two Innuos Phoenix products is to never turn them off, largely due to the Oven-Controlled XO which needs to be at temperature to do its "thang".

Looking forward to having a play with the PhoenixNET next week.

 

Great review for those interested:-

https://www.fairaudio.de/test/innuos-phoenixnet-audiophiler-netzwerk-switch/?fbclid=IwAR2plNQnuAEOYVMHZIIy7swsTyaUfpaVqCsMisJUElnwJ0H0t_pxgrFag8A

 

 

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19 hours ago, Assisi said:

His network setup is far in advance of mine with clocks etc. 

I'm sure many would love to hear about what a network expert audiophile has done to optimise his network for high end audio.  He may have been a 'non-believer' anchored in technical expertise that has been converted.

 

19 hours ago, Assisi said:

Telegartner M12 gold

Apparently the M12 plugs/jacks are superior to RJ45s, which contributes to the M12 switch performance.  Sablon now makes some ethernet cables with M12 fitted.

 

19 hours ago, Assisi said:

The network expert above has said to me that the best thing I can do in my situation at the moment is install a separate device for house wifi and turn the wifi off on the NBN router.  Wifi on the router potentially creates noise on my network.  As well wifi slows the router response times.

I agree.  I have gone a step further ...

 

nbn FTTP > nbn connection box > short ethernet > FMC > single mode fibre > EdgeRouter X SFP > hifi ...

 

Early impressions - its made a positive and noticeable difference, moreso when I used the the ifi Power X  (yes, unfortunately fibre does not make the network immune to poor power supply at the very beginning).  Still some experimenting to do.

 

I will soon be swapping the EdgeRouter for a Mikrotik router with 4 SFPs, so I can run fibre to another switch and plug the wifi Access Point into that.   The the router will be isolated from the rest of the network (and the nbn) by fibre.

 

20 hours ago, Assisi said:

Both my new found networking expert and my system curator are adamant that the Waversa which is the best must come first in the chain. 

That is interesting and counter to the experience of many especially with ethernet cables.  Is there opinion based on theory or actual testing?  I've learned we cant assume anything will be as we expect it to be.

 

6 hours ago, TerryO said:

Yes the Makua with Tambaqui is a Roon end point, in this configuration with the PheonixNet I am only using Ethernet cables from the PheonixNet to the Zenith, then same to Makua.

 

Stereophilius has an almost identical set up to you with Antipodes CX instead of Zenith.  He even had ATC speakers until recently.  Interestingly, he found changing ethernet cables to the endpoint made a difference only on rare occasions.  Have you found this?  Is that what you mean by ....

 

6 hours ago, TerryO said:

Bruce’s Audioquest cable when compared was just a bit smoother, a little less revealing if anything but still very nice, the difference in SQ was small

 

6 hours ago, TerryO said:

since the installation of the PheonixNet they are now very good to listen to

I agree, I now care little about the age of the recording and ore about the quality of the recording.  Even quite 'old' recordings can sound fantastic.

 

6 hours ago, andresz said:

Would the Waversa  work as a replacement? ie stream netflix, you tube , computer duties etc.... Thx 

It has a WAN connection, so presumably it could if the user interface enables inputting the ISP parametres.  But that is a big investment for a router because it has a ot more capability.  If only Waversa would make WRouter with without streamer and NAS capability.

 

5 hours ago, Hydrology said:

As Terry said previously, the recommendation for the two Innuos Phoenix products is to never turn them off, largely due to the Oven-Controlled XO which needs to be at temperature to do its "thang".

Looking forward to having a play with the PhoenixNET next week.

I've heard this before about DACs too.  But how long does it take for the OCXO to reach its optimum temp?

 

When do you receive the PhoenixNet?

 

That was a somewhat interesting review.  I think reviewers need to get past the "yes this switch is better than nothing or a crap IT switch" which is now pretty common knowledge (although some still dont believe it).  A comparison with a similar grade switch would be more informative.  It is interesting the reviewer said the EtherRegen is not much better than Bonn 8 when others have concluded ER is similar to Melco.  Melco and PhoenixNET would be a worthwhile comparison and similar price point.

 

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Thx - the routers have different sonic signatures. The latest Testra Gateway is the best I have experienced for audio/video but I use an outboard PS, ground it and then feed it with a very high quality cable. (also the NBN box). If I use it as stock, the difference is significant. As I use for HT as well, it is very noticeable.  I also run this part of the rig off a different power feed.  That also makes a difference re noise. 

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3 hours ago, dbastin said:

which contributes to the M12 switch performance

 It was suggested to me that the battery side of the Waversa may even provide more benefit than the connections on the M12 Gold.  I cannot say.  One day there will be a comparison I am sure.  The advice to me is that battery will always be better.

 

3 hours ago, dbastin said:

I'm sure many would love to hear about what a network expert audiophile has done to optimise his network for high end audio

He is a member of SNA.  He just doesn't want to get caught up in the possible put downs that could arise.  He reads the thread only.

3 hours ago, dbastin said:

I will soon be swapping the EdgeRouter for a Mikrotik router with 4 SFPs, so I can run fibre to another switch and plug the wifi Access Point into that.   The the router will be isolated from the rest of the network (and the nbn) by fibre.

I think that is his approach. Separate the audio from the rest of his network.  No fibre at all on the audio side though.  Copper is always better is the mantra I am told.  On the matter of fibre his advice is always use Multi mode and not Single mode as that is for longer distance.  In the house it is just a short distance.  This opposite to much of what I have read elsewhere and where I have gone recently with fibre.  Maybe a waste of effort.

3 hours ago, dbastin said:

That is interesting and counter to the experience of many especially with ethernet cables.  Is there opinion based on theory or actual testing?  I've learned we cant assume anything will be as we expect it to be.

Definite experience.  Lots of testing.   Their position it is much better to first deal with any incoming problems rather than deal with it later or at the end of the Chain

3 hours ago, dbastin said:

It has a WAN connection, so presumably it could if the user interface enables inputting the ISP parametres

It can be configured to do many things as a router.  However it cannot do the landline that I need.

 

John

 

John

 

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2 hours ago, Assisi said:

I think that is his approach. Separate the audio from the rest of his network.  No fibre at all on the audio side though.  Copper is always better

 

2 hours ago, Assisi said:

Their position it is much better to first deal with any incoming problems rather than deal with it later or at the end of the Chain

 

I have copper from router all the way thru to endpoint, but my last 2 isolators are Gigafoil with use fibre.

 

I have fibre to isolate nbn from router and it sounds much better than Cat5e UTP.  That is how I am dealing with incoming problems.  Its cost =

 

FMC $40

Fibre + SFPs $40

Elecom Cat 8 $15

 

Just that $100 was very cost effective. I went further to add ...

 

ifi iPower X $160

ifi iPurifier $150

Wireworld Starlight Cat 8 $200 (used).

 

Each was a small subtle improvement ... it combines to a better result, but still much less improvement than the FMC and fibre.  May be more worthwhile if I use audio grade outlet instead of $5 garden variety AU outlet.

 

I am inclined to think that minimising copper cable between nbn and router minimises the noise that gets into the cable and the electronics of the FMC or router.  Hence I have 1m copper to FMC then 10m fibre rather than 10m copper and 1m fibre.

 

There is little difference in cost of 10m between Single Mode and Multi-mode.

 

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