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Uptone Audio EtherREGEN Owners & Discussion Thread


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1 hour ago, HumanMedia said:

IsoAcoustics Aperta 300 stand

Widely available from many Hifi retailers.

 

However, I find the pro audio range just as good (have compared Aperta with ISO stands)

https://www.storedj.com.au/brands/isoacoustics

 

Have tried the ISO Puck on the ER, improved the body of music, currently using Aperta 100 which was spare.

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I had the chance to listen to an EtherRegen yesterday for a few hours due to the fantastic generosity of an SNA member along with some exotic ethernet cables also on loan from another SNA er.  Ha, luc

Here is my review after burn-in and extended listening:   Current Setup   A simple UPnP setup using a MinimServer to get music from a NAS and serving to a pair of Devialet Ph

Uptone Audio have released an Ethernet switch specifically designed for the audio market.   Useful Links: EtherRegen product information EtherREGEN User Guide Uptone Audio Spo

12 hours ago, dbastin said:

 

The short answer is ... most probably Yes ...

 

... unless you're very fortunate like Stereophilius who has a freakin awesome system which includes a Mola Mola endpoint that is pretty well immune to upstream network according to his experience.  I'd guess that is a very rare situation.

 

I'd guess my situation is more common in that my Devialet Pro is not immune, so my ethernet system has evolved to be quite elaborate. 

 

When I put ER upstream of EX (as roon server/core), there was a clear improvement -overall, not just preferable sound qualities.

 

Do your gear justice and address these:

 

- Wifi is inferior, generally. 

- The zerozone and its power cord are a weak link. 

- The mesh device will be generating noise too.

 

ER will help, but there is more to gain.

 

For example, my ER is presently between EX and Devialet Pro (that is, between Core and renderer), with $4k of LPS, power cord and Ethernet cables connected to it ... and even so, changing the power cord on the router's LPS to another equivalent value cord made an obvious improvement.

 

Enjoy the rabbit warren, one hole at a time.  🙃

Kind words @dbastin.  Thankyou.  
 

From what I can surmise, there are 2 key areas that need addressing to help “immunise” a system.

1. The streamer to DAC link is critical.  It needs to be as short as possible and as noise free as possible.

2. Grounding and ground loops seem important.  Wherever possible make sure each network component including the DAC is fed from a clean power source with a common ground.  I believe this is why routers can matter.

 

I still use my ER due to its ability to provide a common ground link.  I now only notice slight audible differences between the different PSUs supplying the ER.  Interestingly, I prefer the Gieseler Gold Tune Kraftwerk LPSU to the Uptone JS-2.

 

I think it is particularly important to ensure all hifi components downstream from ER “B”side are kept electrically separated from anything upstream.  So for me, I have the ER, Antipodes CX and Makua all fed from a Shunyata Denali power conditioner which is on a dedicated circuit on a separate power phase to the rest of the house.  My Kaluga power amps are on the same circuit.  But, the router feeding the ER “A” side via standard cat 6 Ethernet is powered on a completely different circuit and on a different phase from the hifi gear.

 

Back when I used USB into the Makua, even with a very similar setup and power arrangement, I could hear difference with USB cables and regenerators, and Ethernet tweaks.  So good power alone is not the answer.  But if you combine good power with a short, “optimised for audio” link between streamer and DAC, then you are going to be happy.

 

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1 hour ago, Stereophilus said:

a short, “optimised for audio” link between streamer and DAC,

 

1 hour ago, Stereophilus said:

The streamer to DAC link is critical.

Yes!  I note both of us now use gear with renderer integrated with DAC.

 

Given the impact cables can have, I'd guess an external/seperate renderer would need to be extraordinary and have excellent link (USB, i2s) to DAC to be better than integrated.  In my Devialet, the renderer is directly connected to the DAC board, no wires.

 

This was highlighted to me when I was still able to improve SQ with tweaks between EX and Devialet, even though EX has a very low noise direct ethernet link to endpoint.  And I got my EX from Stereophilius when he concluded the integrated renderer in his DAC performed better than the CX-EX solution.

 

Based on my experience, I am a strong believer in the affect of cables, so much I endeavour to minimise the need for them.

 

Now back to topic, it would be great if someone could integrate a MOAT into the output of a server and input of a render.  And produce a very high quality very short ethernet cable.

 

1 hour ago, Stereophilus said:

the router feeding the ER “A” side via standard cat 6 Ethernet is powered on a completely different circuit and on a different phase from the hifi gear.

And this sounds better than powering router from Denali?  My router power comes from my hifi Triton v2 with Sigma power cord on dedicated circuit.  Nbn box is on the house circuit, I intend to isolate nbn box from router with fibre or Gigafoil.

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8 minutes ago, dbastin said:

And this sounds better than powering router from Denali?  My router power comes from my hifi Triton v2 with Sigma power cord on dedicated circuit.  Nbn box is on the house circuit, I intend to isolate nbn box from router with fibre or Gigafoil.

Unfortunately there is no easy way to power my router via the Denali, due to physical separation between them.

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19 hours ago, HumanMedia said:

You have motivated me to do the same.

 

Where did you get these from?

IsoAcoustics Aperta 300 stand

@HumanMedia

 

Another long post from me 😀, though the stuff I mentioned previously does relate to improving the benefits of the ER (just as much as LPS and different SFP's) ... I need to bear in mind this an ER thread, and I fear going off topic as I do tend to make long detailed posts. So, thought I would do one more detailed comphrensive post and wrap up my thoughts on experimenting with ERs, with a focus on heat absorption, shielding and vibration/resonance control (while they are still fresh in my mind from experimenting).  Hope this helps. 

 

 

IsoAcoustics Aperta 300 stands

Selby (Australian supplier), got 3 of them for 25% off during the Black Friday sales.

https://www.selby.com.au/brands/isoacoustics.html?product_list_order=price

 

I also have a similar IsoAcoustics stand from the Pro Audio range, called ISO-430.

 

Got that via Manny's (another Australian supplier) via eBay store, noticed Snoopy8 posted a direct website link to Manny's store. Similar to Snoopy8, I find no real sound difference between the Home Audio & the Pro Audio ranges. Personally, my thoughts, not enough to warrant the cost delta in price from a performance perspective. If it was not for the Black Friday sale at Selby's for Home Audio range, would have gone to Manny's for the Pro Audio range. Price differences aside between the two IsoAcoustics ranges (Home Audio and Pro Audio), found both retailers excellent, IME and would certainly deal with both again. For me, as I found little performance difference, it would be what is the right size for the application, then what's the best current deal at the moment.

 

Also previously owned from the Pro Audio range, had a set of IsoAcoustics ISO-PUCK Mini.

https://isoacoustics.com/iso-puck-series/

 

Benefits of all three IsoAcoustic products were the same ... decided to standardise on the stands as I already owned 10 pieces of 10mm thick Aluminium plate in various sizes, and thought it was easier to make platforms using the stands (plus I got some cable management clips from Bunnings, to eventually place under the rear edges of the aluminium plates to hide excess cable, so eventually when my system settles down, I can do some tidying up).  Plus with my experimenting I kept knocking the ISO-Puck Minis out of alignment (the logo should face forward as manufacturer recommends ... though found this more important under speaker).

 

19 hours ago, HumanMedia said:

Black 10mm Aluminium plate

 

Went to the local metal shop (back in 2009, found them very helpful) and ordered 10 pieces of 10mm thick raw Aluminium in various size, from 50cm wide by 30cm deep, to 20cm wide by 30cm deep.

https://metalbythemetre.com.au/product/ally-flat-bar/

Back then the 10 pieces of Aluminium cost me about $600, so averaged about $60 each.

Price would be more now, maybe a lot more.

 

Anodising ... it was not available at the time, though from the link above it now appears to be an option. If I was starting from scratch, knowing what I know now, I would ask them if Black Anodising was available (plus I would not have had to do any painting).

 

Benefits of Aluminium is that it has a very narrow band of resonance, which range apparently reduces further by Anodising (just remembering reading a long diatribe on the subject from one of Arcam designers, probably why anodised aluminium is used in hifi gear, plus it is more scratch resistant, along with heat absorption). Also, Black for the IR heat absorption Swenson mentioned.  

 

Also, though ALU does not rust, it does get slight corrosion if left raw ... so when I got the 10 pieces out of the cupboard recently noticed a slight corrosion, so rubbed them back, then went off to Bunnings to get some primer and Black Matte paint. It was a great job ... until I ran out of Black Matte paint ... and so did my local Bunnings. Had to redo it all with Black Satin paint. 

 

Only problem with thick Aluminium that I have found, is that it rings like a bell, very long decay time ... so it needs just a little dampening. Though not too much (tried some silicone elastomer Acoustifeet Anti-Vibration Feet, and it just sucked the life out of the music). Get the damping right and IME, it is the best support surface for gear.

 

Anyway, found that damping problem solved by using IsoAcoustics stands (pucks will do the same job) with the 10mm thick Aluminium plates.

 

Heat of the ER is often mentioned, so maybe this might help someone.

 

Plus, it is possible to go too far.

 

One thing I mentioned in previous post was that I tried turning one of my ERs upside down directly on top of the Black Aluminium ... well it became just a little warm to the touch, could barely feel warmth from the ER and sound quality dropped a bit ... it was too much of a drop in temperature, maybe brought the temp down too much so the clocks are not operating in best temperature range.

 

From my perspective, I found the ER normally very hot when sitting on top of the glass, then tried upside down with direct contact to the Black Aluminium too cool ... the goldilocks or just right method was to leave it on its rubber feet above the black aluminium ... then the temperature was just very warm.

 

 

19 hours ago, HumanMedia said:

Townshend Audio Seismic Pods

 

Overseas seller as no OZ distribution or retailer.

 

TradeMe (NZ equivalent of eBay), got the last two sets from an Audio retailer, parmentersound, for a good price.

 

I'm kind of toying with the idea of floating my whole Network rack, getting another piece of Aluminium cut (and black anodised, so I do not have to go thru painting fiasco again), and ordering some "D" type springs from either of the following :

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa7652-townshend-audio-seismic-isolation-pods-set-of-4-sizes-a-b-c-d-e-f-1-200kg-free-shippi-tweaks

https://www.futureshop.co.uk/townshend-seismic-isolation-pod-individual

 

What I will probably do, is move the ERs and current pods to a shelf on the AV rack, and get another set of "D" type springs from the Audiogon listing above, for the AV rack (for the incoming Holton 3000W BPS), that way all 3 levels of the AV rack will be floated with a combo of Townshend Pods/IsoAcoustics Stands, and I will have less chance of "mechanical shorts" (where heavy cables reduce the effectiveness of the isolation, especially on the Pods).

 

Townshend Audio Seismic Pods, well from my perspective (at least for my budget) are expensive, though they do that seismic isolation the best. The benefits they describe IME are valid.

https://www.townshendaudio.com/hi-fi-home-cinema-equipment-vibration-isolation/seismic-isolation-pods/

I tried them (previously when I was more of an audiophile, than an AV guy just tweaking his system), under Focal Micro Utopia speakers, Benchmark DAC1 Pre, Pass Labs integrated amp, various sources, various power conditioners & balanced power supplies. Back then it was speakers and DAC, the other stuff not much (and the Pass Labs showed no change whatsoever, it was tweak resilient).

 

This time around (as an AV guy with a simple system), it is still the speaker that benefits the most, the shelf/platform I made for both of the ER's and Roon Nucleus was a lesser, though still beneficial improvement. My first thoughts when I floated the ERs & Nucleus were ... I now have PRAT, a bit longer with this configuration has also shown the sound field projected wider to me, rather than a point source.

 

19 hours ago, HumanMedia said:

What other vibration controls do you find effective?

 

Here is a list of what I found effective:

 

Townshend Audio Seismic Isolation Podium (older version)  ... previously owned 

Townshend Audio Seismic Isolation Pods (older version)  ... previously owned 

Townshend Audio Seismic Isolation Pods (new version) ... currently own

 

IsoAcoustics ISO-PUCK Mini ... previously owned 

IsoAcoustics  ISO-430 stand (from the Pro Audio range)  ... currently own

IsoAcoustics Aperta 300 stand (from Home Audio range).  ... currently own

 

 

It is the synergy of combining both products that I am finding special, especially if the Seismic  Pods are at the bottom of the shelf/platform, then the IsoAcoustics above it, with the Aluminium plate on top. Though I also tried reversing the order (IsoAcoustics under the Seismic Pods)and it just sounds wrong. I post another couple of photos of the ER setup that was best, along with another of under a speaker which may show the order a bit more clearly.

 

TL;DR; For the ERs, if I just had to choose one or the other (IsoAcoustics or Townshend Pods), it would be a tough choice, as they brought different benefits. Though it would definitely be 10mm Black Aluminium between either the IsoAcoustic/Pods, just under the ERs.

 

Also from eBay have some inexpensive sets of Black Aluminium Isolation Stand Footers, which are cost effective.

 

Back in 2009 I brought at Bunnings I purchased a heap of Door Stoppers for $1 each, works great on top of some equipment to dampen the chassis. Believe they are now referred to as the "Darko Doorstoppers" tweak.

 

For the ER's, during the Black Friday sales I ordered from eBay some :

Black "Aluminium Desk Vertical Laptop Stand Holder Adjustable Bracket For MacBook New" though still waiting for delivery. Ordered this prior to painting my 10mm Aluminium plates black.

These cost about $25 each. 

I will try them on the ERs (and the MikroTik Switch that finally arrive yesterday) and report how I go. I'll add a photo.

 

What I have tried and has not worked for me, at least it had no synergy with current or previous systems, plus I am very sensitive to any glare in mid/treble range, which is something my glass/steel racks can accentuate if I do not tame them. Tone/timbre is very important to me, while other things like sound staging/imaging, not so much. Just my preferences. So, with that in mind, other things I have tried that did not fit my personal preferences:

10mm thick glass shelves (though 20mm is OK, sounds good 🤷‍♂️), 30mm Marble, 30mm Granite, 30mm Bamboo, 20mm Acrylic, BluTack, Sorbothane, Nordost Pulsar Points, Squash balls cut in half, Ebony wood footers, Acoustifeet Anti-Vibration Feet (though worked great silencing normal stuff like some Dyson fans 🤷‍♂️), and other stuff I have forgotten about.

 

s-l1600.jpg

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IMG_0672.jpeg

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On 18/11/2020 at 11:27 PM, HumanMedia said:

I do have some news, the sound on the PlanetTechs is changing. For at least 8 days no change. Harsh slightly metallic highs. Now the highs are noticeably different, less harsh, but the midrange is now murky where it wasn't before. I will give them a few days until the sound stabilises and stops changing and report back with more detail.  Please post your impressions when you have >10 days on yours.

 

Also kennyb123 who posted early opinions of the PlanetTechs has reported back with some new SFP darlings - the Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL and FTLF1324P2BTL. These are lower range single-mode (4-10km), lower power (lower noise?). He will provide more feedback soon but says that the Finisar are a little more neutral than the PlanetTech, which he still rates highly.

 

Received the MikroTik CRS305 yesterday and setup as a switch, so have gone back to using SFPs (previously I just used the Planet Techs between two ERs for 7 days, then stopped and used ERs  individually, so have not had optical connection with SFPs for awhile).

 

I am on Day 9 with the PlanetTech SFPs ... and it is not good.

 

Your post articulates exactly what I heard regarding treble early on, and now midrange is currently "murky" (not a word I have previously used regarding audio, yet it is the perfect word to describe what is happening in the midrange).  

 

Hope PlanetTech SFPs improves soon (believe you mentioned it can take about 3 weeks for a SFP to burn in), or that the Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL SFPs that I ordered arrive quickly. From your recent posts the Finisar SFPs sound like they are doing a great job, Im really looking forward to trying them. I''ll keep the winner in ER(Audio), and move the next best to ER(Video), as I am just using some FS.COM SFPs in that one ATM. Thanks again for the recommendations and purchase link for the Finisar SFPs :thumb:.

 

Also liked your idea of suggesting an "AudioPhile SFP" to UpTone Audio.

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17 hours ago, dbastin said:

Now back to topic, it would be great if someone could integrate a MOAT into the output of a server and input of a render.  And produce a very high quality very short ethernet cable.

 

What is a "MOAT"?  It has been mentioned a number of times in this thread.

John

 

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2 hours ago, Assisi said:

What is a "MOAT"?  It has been mentioned a number of times in this thread.

John

 

Hey John,

 

Try going back to Snoopy’s first post in this thread and read the product information link.  In summary, the “Moat” is Uptone Audio’s proprietary method for isolating everything on “side B” of the switch from everything on “side A”.

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1 minute ago, Stereophilus said:

Try going back to Snoopy’s first post in this thread and read the product information link.  In summary, the “Moat” is Uptone Audio’s proprietary method for isolating everything on “side B” of the switch from everything on “side A”.

Problem is @Assisi has leapt the moat on all of us with  a Paul Pang quad switch plus at least 1 more switch  😄  

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1 hour ago, Snoopy8 said:

Problem is @Assisi has leapt the moat on all of us with  a Paul Pang quad switch plus at least 1 more switch  😄  

Leapt the moat and built a wall (around his hifi) instead with Paul Pang and Bonn bricks.

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@Snoopy8 & @Stereophilus,

 

Thanks for the answers.  I thought that it may have been an Acronym for some device that I could try.  It is just a metaphor.  It seems to me with the abbreviations that are used sometimes that some posts are written in secret code.  SFP, PoE and LPSU and on it goes.

John

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1 hour ago, Assisi said:

I thought that it may have been an Acronym for some device that I could try

To be accurate, I should have used the acronym ADIM... Active Differential Isolation Moat ... but most people that engage in ER discussion use the term moat, which is really slang.

 

According to Uptone Audio:

 

The design methods and innovative ADIM™ of the EtherREGEN results in dual, isolated clock/data/power domains, blockage of all external leakage currents, a significant reduction in upstream phase-noise fingerprint, and maximal signal integrity.

 

Moat could be interchanged with what some call a fence.  The meaning is 'isolation barrier' from the enemy, in our case noise.

 

John, your Paul Pang quad switches might still not be as effective, unless they could be interconnected with fibre which has its pros and cons.  Afterdark has a dual fibre switch, however I suspect Gigafoil implements a moat in a much smaller box.

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On 18/12/2020 at 10:24 PM, dbastin said:

 

The short answer is ... most probably Yes ...

 

... unless you're very fortunate like Stereophilius who has a freakin awesome system which includes a Mola Mola endpoint that is pretty well immune to upstream network according to his experience.  I'd guess that is a very rare situation.

 

I'd guess my situation is more common in that my Devialet Pro is not immune, so my ethernet system has evolved to be quite elaborate. 

 

When I put ER upstream of EX (as roon server/core), there was a clear improvement -overall, not just preferable sound qualities.

 

Do your gear justice and address these:

 

- Wifi is inferior, generally. 

- The zerozone and its power cord are a weak link. 

- The mesh device will be generating noise too.

 

ER will help, but there is more to gain.

 

For example, my ER is presently between EX and Devialet Pro (that is, between Core and renderer), with $4k of LPS, power cord and Ethernet cables connected to it ... and even so, changing the power cord on the router's LPS to another equivalent value cord made an obvious improvement.

 

Enjoy the rabbit warren, one hole at a time.  🙃

 

Hi dbastin,

 

Not sure why but the 25m supra cat 8 is in my closet cos I bought it with the expectation from typical negative comment on wifi that it will sound better from router directly to the CX as server and EX as player but it did not vs current setup with the wireless mesh. Perhaps no leakage current that I read somewhere is one key negative impact to sound quality that ER also addresses  in addition to noise aka jitters ?

 

Not sure the expected 12V dc psu needed for router and mesh nodes again previous use of ifi ipower units but I read that zerozone lps based on AMR sigma 11 isn't too bad and zonotone 7nps 5050 powercord used for the zerozone lps to the receiving node to the CX should be ok and in fact an overkill being 3 times the $.

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/31119-power-supply-8-group-test-lps-and-smps/

 

Thanks for the warning of the rabbit hole but I am quite adverse to be spending more than 20% of the accessories, including cablings, power supply etc. It is only because of how much the Antipodes cost that I bought the acoustic tripleC lan cables. However the thought of some technologies on the ER does seems attractive and hence the consideration but still had not learned if it will indeed helps in my use case and why.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

 

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Thank you for your order Richard. You are lucky to have gotten into to the January batch--as the very last available unit for that month!

 

Here is a quick status update for all (I'm supposed to be on vacation and unplugged until the 4th; good thing my wife does not read the forums or I would be in trouble :o😞

 

—All EtherREGENs promised for shipment by December 17th shipped off well ahead of schedule as is always my goal (on the 7th for domestic units, on the 11th for the internationals).

 

—We have zero units left on the shelf, but 250 circuit boards in production and due here about January 13th.  However, we have only about 80 aluminum cases in stock, with our 450 piece order for cases delayed for shipment from Japan around January 28th (hopefully sooner).

 

—Because of the above, you can see that for January we will be able to complete and ship only 80 units. And as of this afternoon those have all been pre-ordered by end-users (our dealers are getting shut out of January; guess I will deal with their unhappiness about this early in the month).

 

—Since we will have plenty of boards and time to program/test/affix heatsinks in advance of more aluminum cases arriving, I feel confident in quoting February 11th as the outside ship date for any new orders that people place now. And a reasonable chance such orders will ship a few days sooner than that.

 

Thank you all for your business and enthusiasm in 2020.  Looking forward not only to our pandemic-stricken world recovering next year, but also to releasing some of the very exciting (and still secret--so don't ask) new products we have been cooking up for a while. [Not Ethernet-related is all I will say. So keep buying EtherREGEN's--is will not change or being superseded in 2021.]

 

Wishing you good health and great music in 2021,

 

Alex Crespi

 

Please note that UpTone Audio’s offices will be closed from December 21st to January 4th. Packages will be received, but no outbound shipments will be made nor will e-mail be answered during this period. We thank you for understanding and wish you a healthy holiday and new year.

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On 20/12/2020 at 2:46 AM, Duke40 said:

IsoAcoustics Aperta 300 stands

Selby (Australian supplier), got 3 of them for 25% off during the Black Friday sales.

https://www.selby.com.au/brands/isoacoustics.html?product_list_order=price

 

I also have a similar IsoAcoustics stand from the Pro Audio range, called ISO-430.

 

Got that via Manny's (another Australian supplier) via eBay store, noticed Snoopy8 posted a direct website link to Manny's store. Similar to Snoopy8, I find no real sound difference between the Home Audio & the Pro Audio ranges. Personally, my thoughts, not enough to warrant the cost delta in price from a performance perspective. If it was not for the Black Friday sale at Selby's for Home Audio range, would have gone to Manny's for the Pro Audio range. Price differences aside between the two IsoAcoustics ranges (Home Audio and Pro Audio), found both retailers excellent, IME and would certainly deal with both again. For me, as I found little performance difference, it would be what is the right size for the application, then what's the best current deal at the moment.

 

Also previously owned from the Pro Audio range, had a set of IsoAcoustics ISO-PUCK Mini.

https://isoacoustics.com/iso-puck-series/

 

Benefits of all three IsoAcoustic products were the same ...

Having tried the Isoacoustics ISO stands, ISO Pucks and Aperta stands, I agree there is little if no difference between them.  The only reason that I bought the Aperta was that it was available in silver!  (and when I ordered, even someone at the distributor did not know they came in silver!).  While the ISO Pucks are more versatile, the ISO stands can be tilted which I used for my centre speaker.  Also, I suspect there will be little difference between the ISO Puck and Orea, but I yet to compare them.

 

So that we remain on topic, my ER sits on top of an Aperta 100 stand, with the smallest Ikea bamboo chopping board as the flat surface.

 

2 hours ago, richardloh said:

Thank you for your order Richard. You are lucky to have gotten into to the January batch--as the very last available unit for that month!

Welcome to the rabbit warren!  😄 

 

However it is not necessary to go deep and far into the warren.  Having the ER itself is enough for many people.  Others have chosen to add a PSU.  Then the warren starts with optical units, cables, SFPs, 2xERs, isolators, etc. etc..  (aka dbastin, human media, Duke40 😂).

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2 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

Welcome to the rabbit warren!  😄 

 

However it is not necessary to go deep and far into the warren.  Having the ER itself is enough for many people.  Others have chosen to add a PSU.  Then the warren starts with optical units, cables, SFPs, 2xERs, isolators, etc. etc..  (aka dbastin, human media, Duke40 😂).

 

@Snoopy8 Yes, the rabbit warren is deep ... and vast!

 

I am completely lost 😜😃.

 

This week, my lost wondering in the rabbit warren involves trialling MultiMode SFPs (just some inexpensive $9 SFPs I got from FS.COM) between new MikroTik CRS305 switch via optical to my ER (Audio), something I mentioned a while ago to @HumanMedia that I would give a go.  While lost in the warren I forgot to give them a go. Im on Day 10 or 11 or the Planet Tech Single Mode SFPs, and have moved them to connect switch to my ER (Video) to continue burn in. Then I will switch SFPs back on the weekend.

 

Trying to stay on topic, and reflecting on what I have tried so far, my thoughts in my experimenting with EtherREGEN is that the PSU is most important.  That is what really revealed to me what the ERs are capable of (when I tried with JS-2). The other stuff like optical units, cables, SFPs, 2xERs, isolators, and the support/heat/shielding for the ERs (which I waffled on about previously), all certainly have an impact, though it is LPS (especially the JS-2) from my experience that has the biggest change. My thoughts may change once my balanced power supply BPS arrives, I'll check and revaluate the impact of putting either the whole network, including ERs on the Holton BPS ... or the AV system on the Holton BPS.

 

I suppose I just want to understand ... why 🤷‍♂️ this stuff matters ... and particularly which attributes are more important to focus on. 

 

For example, getting the MikroTik has left me short of quality LPSs, so had to put the ER that I use for video back on the supplied MeanWell SMPS ... and I lost the benefits that I experienced with 4K from the AppleTV 4K, specifically 4K Dolby Vision and that 4K also is best if it is HDR (not SDR) content. While my AV setup is biased towards video, I could not tolerate the drop in audio quality of not having the whole audio path on quality power, so Roon Nucleus -> MikroTik switch -> ER(Audio), are all back using quality power. 

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8 minutes ago, Duke40 said:

 

@Snoopy8 Yes, the rabbit warren is deep ... and vast!

 

I am completely lost 😜😃.

 

This week, my lost wondering in the rabbit warren involves trialling MultiMode SFPs (just some inexpensive $9 SFPs I got from FS.COM) between new MikroTik CRS305 switch via optical to my ER (Audio), something I mentioned a while ago to @HumanMedia that I would give a go.  While lost in the warren I forgot to give them a go. Im on Day 10 or 11 or the Planet Tech Single Mode SFPs, and have moved them to connect switch to my ER (Video) to continue burn in. Then I will switch SFPs back on the weekend.

 

Trying to stay on topic, and reflecting on what I have tried so far, my thoughts in my experimenting with EtherREGEN is that the PSU is most important.  That is what really revealed to me what the ERs are capable of (when I tried with JS-2). The other stuff like optical units, cables, SFPs, 2xERs, isolators, and the support/heat/shielding for the ERs (which I waffled on about previously), all certainly have an impact, though it is LPS (especially the JS-2) from my experience that has the biggest change. My thoughts may change once my balanced power supply BPS arrives, I'll check and revaluate the impact of putting either the whole network, including ERs on the Holton BPS ... or the AV system on the Holton BPS.

 

I suppose I just want to understand ... why 🤷‍♂️ this stuff matters ... and particularly which attributes are more important to focus on. 

 

For example, getting the MikroTik has left me short of quality LPSs, so had to put the ER that I use for video back on the supplied MeanWell SMPS ... and I lost the benefits that I experienced with 4K from the AppleTV 4K, specifically 4K Dolby Vision and that 4K also is best if it is HDR (not SDR) content. While my AV setup is biased towards video, I could not tolerate the drop in audio quality of not having the whole audio path on quality power, so Roon Nucleus -> MikroTik switch -> ER(Audio), are all back using quality power. 

In my opinion the rabbit warren doesn’t need to exist, one ER and good LPSU, careful attention to how the A and B side connections are done, and the right ethernet cables for your situation. Perhaps all these complicated scenarios produce slightly better sound than what I’m getting, but I honestly think it would be marginal at best, IMHO

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18 hours ago, awayward said:

In my opinion the rabbit warren doesn’t need to exist, one ER and good LPSU, careful attention to how the A and B side connections are done, and the right ethernet cables for your situation. Perhaps all these complicated scenarios produce slightly better sound than what I’m getting, but I honestly think it would be marginal at best, IMHO

Fully agree that is what many people will do...

 

However, let's not spoil the bunny search for the few who clearly relish the hunt!  😁   🙂 

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On 21/12/2020 at 6:52 PM, awayward said:

In my opinion the rabbit warren doesn’t need to exist, one ER and good LPSU, careful attention to how the A and B side connections are done, and the right ethernet cables for your situation. Perhaps all these complicated scenarios produce slightly better sound than what I’m getting, but I honestly think it would be marginal at best, IMHO

For 12 months it didn’t exist for me. I had an ER from the second batch.   I had a linear power supply on every component. I was a happy rabbit. The sound I had from my system was the best I’ve had in my life. The grass was green, the carrots crunchy.

 

However some of the time, on some material the highs were a bit pushed and metallic. It was probably my preamp. Couldn’t be anything upstream of the DAC as that is now all sorted.

 

Dropping into some forums there were lots of rabbits, noses twitching, nattering about esoteric things to do with optical connections, cascading switches, external clocks. Meh not interested, diminishing returns and too much technical for technicals-sake and confusing acronyms. All too much work for splitting hairs.

 

Hmmm, but my highs could be better I guess. I upgraded my ethernet cable from the ER to my streamer and it made audible difference, subtle but better. Maybe there is room for improvement upstream of the DAC...

 

Let’s have a little look down some some of those burrow tunnels. Changed the Blue Jeans CAT6 feeding the A side of the ER, with a Sonore Opticalmodule and PlanetTech SFPs. Many aspects were immediately improved but some were worse. Changed the PlanteTech SFP for Finsars, problems gone. Swapped my streamer for an Optical Rendu, turned the ER around so that it was being fed into its B side with ethernet and the output in the A side was optical to the opticalRendu.

 

Those nattering rabbits I have been ignoring all year were right! With all of these changes the net improvement was significant! And all of these changes are only between the wireless endpoint and the DAC. It sounds like a new, way more expensive system.

 

I couldn’t be happier!


 

...or could I? 🐰

 

 

 

..

Edited by HumanMedia
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12 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

your next warren are master clocks

I have resisted this temptation, mostly because ethernet does not benefit from synchronising to one reference clock.  And my Devialet, being integrated, has a single reference clock within it.

 

I gather ER could benefit from a master clock due to its higher accuracy. That would rack up quite a lot of extra expense (clock, decent power andclock BNC cable).

 

Importantly I note John states:

 

We designed the EtherREGEN making the assumption that the user will have the "master clock" a few feet away ... the best result is obtained with a square wave going directly into the synthesizer.


Which begs the question, which clocks generate a square wave, and are they better than the clock in ER?

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On 21/12/2020 at 6:38 PM, Duke40 said:

This week, my lost wondering in the rabbit warren involves trialling MultiMode SFPs (just some inexpensive $9 SFPs I got from FS.COM) between new MikroTik CRS305 switch via optical to my ER (Audio), something I mentioned a while ago to @HumanMedia that I would give a go.  While lost in the warren I forgot to give them a go. Im on Day 10 or 11 or the Planet Tech Single Mode SFPs, and have moved them to connect switch to my ER (Video) to continue burn in. Then I will switch SFPs back on the weekend


Alrighty, have been spending a few days with FS.COM multi mode SFPs, then back to the Planet Techs single mode SFPs.  Then a back & forth a couple more times.  Multi mode FS.COM SFPs sound a bit muffled, lack of detail & clarity. Now that the Planet Techs have more than 3 weeks on them, i definitely prefer single mode SFPs, and the earlier harshness/strident mid/treble of the Planet Techs has settled down. Has not completely disappeared though.
 

My next 🐰, i mean SFP, is the Finisar single mode SFPs, hopefully they arrive  soon. 

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Have been happily using the ER with the stereo (2CH) for a year.  But, last week, a few of these 🐇 🐇 🐇  popped up! 😂 🤣   


It started when I found that 4K movies from Amazon Prime did improve with the ER. It got worse when I tried it with multi channel (MCH) music on the NAS. I now wanted 3 devices running off the ER.  😢 

 

The ER A side could be used to connect the 3 devices and B side used as input.  This would work, assuming that the 3 devices did not add noise (and I checked!). Note that the fibre port on the same A side as the 3 devices could not be used as input because it would not cross the "moat".

 

The options to connect 3 devices were either to get a second ER, a second Ubiquiti or reconfigure:

  1. Ubiquiti -> fibre -> ER 1 -> wired -> ER2 -> 2CH/MCH/TV 
  2. Ubiquiti 1 -> fibre -> Ubiquiti 2 -> wired -> ER -> 2CH/MCH/TV 
  3. Ubiquiti -> wired -> ER -> 2CH/MCH/TV   

Debated whether to jump deeper into the warren, with more switches, experimenting with various SFPs etc.???  A second ER plus power supply were an expensive way forward.  Alternately, could spend less using a second Ubiquiti.


However, simplifying things was too attractive. After confirming that removing fibre did not materially affect the 2CH sound quality, went Option 3.


The warren became less complicated. 👍   No 🐇 🐇 🐇  were harmed in the process…
 

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2 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

Ubiquiti -> wired -> ER -> 2CH/MCH/TV  

I suggest:

 

Ubiquiti -> fibre -> ER Side A

- ER Side A -> MCH/TV

- ER Side B > 2CH

 

Or with 2 ERs:

 

Ubiquiti 1 > ER1 > 2CH

Ubiquiti 1 > fibre > ER2 >

- ER2 Side A > MCH

- ER2 Side B > TV

 

Happy burrowing.

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53 minutes ago, dbastin said:

Ubiquiti -> fibre -> ER Side A

- ER Side A -> MCH/TV

- ER Side B > 2CH

I did try this scenario. However, having seen the impact of the moat on TV, and hearing the better MCH, it was difficult to continue using the A Side.

 

I understand your thinking behind this i.e. keep 2CH as clean as possible.  However, I get my ultimate 2CH sound quality fix by playing music from RAMDisk using my NUC running SnakeOil.  I thus have little urge to chase more bunnies on the ER side.

 

1 hour ago, dbastin said:

Or with 2 ERs:

 

Ubiquiti 1 > ER1 > 2CH

Ubiquiti 1 > fibre > ER2 >

- ER2 Side A > MCH

- ER2 Side B > TV

Ditto - no urge to get a 2nd ER...   My 🐇  🐇  🐇 are now sound asleep. 😂 

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Sometimes its better not to know. Have been playing with 2 ER's vs one ER , or one ER with good quality fibre converter on one end.  Annoyingly, 2 ER's connected by fibre is just noticeably better in my setup (this is playing music from a local disk )

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  • 4 weeks later...

Just ordered an EtherREGEN (not expected until mid-march), but quick question on best how to hook up when it arrives.

 

I was thinking:

 

1) Ethernet wall plug via Supra Cat 8 Ethernet Cable to 2) Netgear 8 port GS108 switch via Supra Cat 8 Ethernet Cable to 3) 'A’ side - EtherREGEN - ‘B’ side via Supra Cat 8 Ethernet Cable to 4) Antipodes CX via Wireworld Starlight Ethernet Cable to 5) Devialet 1000Pro.

 

I currently have a Netgear 8 port GS108 switch at my hi-fi unit (receives ethernet signal via cable ran through roof from my Router in another room). Should I connect the one cable from ethernet wall plug to ‘A’ side of EtherREGEN , best Ethernet cable from ‘B’ side of EtherREGEN to my Antipodes CX, and for the other equipment in my hi-fi unit (mac mini, tv, etc.) have another cable from ‘A’ side of EtherREGEN to the Netgear GS108 switch and then the Netgear will feed all my other equipment?

 

Before anyone mentions about feeding fibre from router to ER, my router is in another room in my house, with Cat6 cables ran via wall cavity and in roof attic to ethernet wall plugs.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Celts88 said:

1) Ethernet wall plug to 2) 'A’ side - EtherREGEN - ‘B’ side to 3) Antipodes CX to 4) Devialet 1000Pro.

 

I currently have a Netgear 8 port GS108 switch at my hi-fi unit (receives ethernet signal via cable ran through roof from my Router in another room). Should I connect the one cable from ethernet wall plug to ‘A’ side of EtherREGEN , best Ethernet cable from ‘B’ side of EtherREGEN to my Antipodes CX, and for the other equipment in my hi-fi unit (mac mini, tv, etc.) have another cable from ‘A’ side of EtherREGEN to the Netgear GS108 switch and then the Netgear will feed all my other equipment?

:welcome: to the 🐇 warren!  😁.  On a more serious note, some people take the next step of a LPSU (I use Gieseler) and stop there...  There are of course a few here who enjoy the bunny chase... 🤣

 

Quote

Attach the computer/streamer/renderer endpoint that is directly connected to your DAC*to the ‘B’-side Ethernet port with a copper Ethernet cable. (*DACs that have an Ethernet input can be directly connected to the ‘B’-side port).  From Uptone website.

If your 1000Pro is connected to the Ethernet, then it should be on B side.  Otherwise CX.  But you can experiment (see below).

 

The A side does a bit of cleaning, but not as much as B side.  One port on A side is for Ethernet input.  Connect 3 other devices that could do with an improved signal.  Rest will be on NetGear. So config 1 could be this:

Wall plug -> Netgear -> A side ER B Side  -> 1000 Pro (or CX)

 

If however, you want a clean signal for up to 4 devices, you can reverse the set up and do B to A.  B to A has slightly more noise than A to B, but is still very good.  eg. you could connect the CX and 1000Pro.  I use B to A.

 

Note that B port is a slow port, so avoid large file transfers over it.

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2 hours ago, Celts88 said:

quick question on best how to hook up when it arrives

I have EX and DevIalet Pro 220, similar to you.  Ive been on quite a journey with ethernet.  There is no 'best' answer. Especially with more than 1 endpoint.

 

You need to decide what is the priority endpoint, audio or TV/video.  Having both from Side A, they will spoil each other, I'd guess the mac mini and TV will spoil audio more though.

 

Then be prepared to experiment to find a balance a benefits and trade offs you can live with.

 

I suggest start with everything except ER and Devialet plugged unto the netgear.  Then do ...

 

Netgear > CX > ER A - ER B > Devialet.

 

Based in my experience that will probably be best for audio.  Get a feel for how that sounds as a benchmark of what you'll be trading off.

 

Then do Netgear > ER A - ER B > CX > Devialet.

 

Take note of the audio trade off of this config that you experience.

 

The CX direct out is very low noise, however ER isolation is better if your power and cabling for ethernet will reveal it. 

 

Next, if you wish to improve the TV do this ... 

 

Netgear > ER B - ER A > CX > Devialet ... and also ER A > TV

 

Stream video using the TV, not mac, dvd player etc, except if you get a better picture using say a dvd player with HDMI to the TV, in which case do .... ER A > player > HDMI > TV.

 

Take note of the audio trade off of this config and TV picture quality improvement that you experience.

 

I suggest this approach because its probably easier to experience the trade offs and decide if you can live with them.

 

Leave the mac plugged into the Netgear, assuming it is a media server not an endpoint.

 

Finally, I trust you are using CX as roon core and Devialet as roon ready, and check you are using RAAT rather than Devialet AIR.

 

Welcome to the rabbit warren.  Next hole is better ethernet cables, and then LPSs.

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@Snoopy8 @dbastin

 

Really appreciate both of your replies.

 

4 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

Wall plug -> Netgear -> A side ER B Side  -> 1000 Pro (or CX)

most likely I'll go with A side ER to B side, but not hard to swap round to have a listen with B to A and see if there's much difference.

 

I'll put the ER in my study and connect it to my router when I first get it to give it the required 200 hours burn in, before using it in my hi-fi set-up.

 

1 hour ago, dbastin said:

I trust you are using CX as roon core and Devialet as roon ready, and check you are using RAAT rather than Devialet AIR

Yep, CX is Roon Core, Devialet is Roon Ready and using RAAT (can't remember last time I used Devialet Air). Would be the same if I end up upgrading to a K40.

 

1 hour ago, dbastin said:

Netgear > CX > ER A - ER B > Devialet.

This sounds the most logical way for myself to go for best audio.

 

Most times I'm using the mac mini, apple tv or tv (Sony X9000E) to watch the tv, and as such the other way around when I'm listening to music via the CX (using Roon) then the mac mini, apple tv and tv won't be getting used. Assume then if these aren't being used then there will be less 'noise' coming from them that would affect the CX attached to the ER (saying that the mac mini may generate noise since it stays on 24/7).

 

1 hour ago, dbastin said:

Stream video using the TV, not mac, dvd player etc, except if you get a better picture using say a dvd player with HDMI to the TV, in which case do .... ER A > player > HDMI > TV.

I use either the tv or apple tv to stream Netflix, etc. to the tv (mostly using apple tv as my wife is more used to using that). Don't have any DVD player, and my Foxtel IQ2 is now redundant so these wouldn't be included in any set-up.

 

1 hour ago, dbastin said:

Leave the mac plugged into the Netgear, assuming it is a media server not an endpoint.

Yep, mac mini is used for streaming Celtic TV to my tv via HDMI cable (Celtic TV is only accessible via a computer).

 

My Sony tv is connected to the Optical on the Devialet so that all sound while watching the tv goes through my 2.1 hi-fi set-up (sounds bloody good with action movies, and not bad with other movies too).

 

1 hour ago, dbastin said:

Netgear > ER B - ER A > CX > Devialet ... and also ER A > TV

Similar to what Snoopy suggested if I want better tv. Saying that I don't watch the tv that much in the lounge hi-fi room as we've now got a new tv in our family room and my wife prefers to watch the tv in there. The only time the tv in the hi-fi room will get used is either if I'm watching Celtic or I don't fancy watching what my wife is watching (most times in the hi-fi room for me and listening to some music).

 

Seems if audio is priority then best option is 'Netgear > CX > ER A - ER B > Devialet', and can plug my mac mini, tv and apple tv into the Netgear so I will have the same ethernet for them that I've always had.

 

I'll give the Netgear > ER B - ER A > all required equipment (CX, Mac, AppTV, TV) and see how this either improves the tv or deteriorates the hi-fi, but in the long run audio is the most important use of the ER for myself so if ER B - ER A is too big a compromise for the hi-fi sound then I'll just go with 'Netgear > Mac, AppTV, TV, CX > ER A - ER B > Devialet',

Edited by Celts88
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10 hours ago, Celts88 said:

This sounds the most logical way for myself to go for best audio.

 

Seems if audio is priority then best option is 'Netgear > CX > ER A - ER B > Devialet', and can plug my mac mini, tv and apple tv into the Netgear so I will have the same ethernet for them that I've always had.

Not necessarily.  @dbastin has done a lot of in depth analysis of the variatiations in his system, but some of us do notice that the direct ethernet output from the CX into the endpoint sounds better than using the ER in between the CX and the endpoint.  I strongly suggest you give this comparison a go and listen very carefully.  I was suprised to find i preferred the CX direct output, it is very good.  I have also heard that the K40 is better again... More rabbits!

Edited by Stereophilus
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Stereophilus, thanks for the reply

 

Ok, so I should also try 'Netgear > ER A - ER B > CX > Devialet'

 

With that set-up I can also try my mac / apple tv / Sony tv either all connected to the Netgear or to the ER A side and see if that affects the 'noise' getting through to the CX (hoping the 'moat' will catch most of it)

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@Celts88, suggest contacting @JDWest.  John from Sublime Hifi has kept things quiet but became an Uptone dealer not long ago.  Maybe you can get the ER earlier from him.  John provides excellent customer support, and local for you!

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Hey all. Yes this is being lazy, but to short cut the last 11 pages of reading, if i'm using a device for audio that connects to the internet via ethernet, one of these things will improve sound quality?

 

I'm not using anything special at the moment for streaming, just a Cullen/W4S modified Sonos in to a Mutec MC3+USB.

 

Everyone here seems to be very happy with these regens so for what is a relatively modest outlay i might have a crack :)

 

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48 minutes ago, wikeeboy said:

Hey all. Yes this is being lazy, but to short cut the last 11 pages of reading, if i'm using a device for audio that connects to the internet via ethernet, one of these things will improve sound quality?

YES (my lazy answer!) 🤣 

 

I'll trade a listen to the A500 (when you get them) for a lend of my ER.

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35 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

YES (my lazy answer!) 🤣 

 

I'll trade a listen to the A500 (when you get them) for a lend of my ER.

 

Ok great. No it seems the problem will be getting my hands on one!

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6 hours ago, Celts88 said:

Stereophilus, thanks for the reply

 

Ok, so I should also try 'Netgear > ER A - ER B > CX > Devialet'

 

With that set-up I can also try my mac / apple tv / Sony tv either all connected to the Netgear or to the ER A side and see if that affects the 'noise' getting through to the CX (hoping the 'moat' will catch most of it)

Yeah, give it a go and see what you think compared to the ER between CX and Devialet.  As there is not consensus regarding this setup on this forum, your thoughts would be appreciated too.

4 hours ago, wikeeboy said:

Hey all. Yes this is being lazy, but to short cut the last 11 pages of reading, if i'm using a device for audio that connects to the internet via ethernet, one of these things will improve sound quality?

 

I'm not using anything special at the moment for streaming, just a Cullen/W4S modified Sonos in to a Mutec MC3+USB.

 

Everyone here seems to be very happy with these regens so for what is a relatively modest outlay i might have a crack :)

 

My hunch is that you would get benefit from adding an ER in your setup.  How much benfit is hard to say.

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Ok well the trigger has been pulled, woohoo! :) 

 

Now i need to understand things like linear power supplies etc. and how to set this puppy up. Time to trawl back through the last 11 pages!

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