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Timing and rhythm

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Guest Muon N'

I think when some talk about the timing of the signal it is not to do with speaker time alignment, but the timing of the signal in the circuit of each component, and when we have a system comprised of a number of components that becomes just a larger circuit as a whole.

 

This type of timing is dependent on the circuit design and the interactions of components used and the relationship from one stage to the next, parameters like voltages applied, impedance's ect'.

 

Meh....

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5 hours ago, Irek said:

One thing that is happening is some amps don't send signal at the same time for high, mid and bass frequency. In consequence usually the bass is behind/late.

Shall we say there are 3 instruments (flute piccolo, violin and double bass).  On some parts of music all instruments have to have even timing, if the double bass is late it means that either the musician can't keep up or the system makes the double bass sound like it can't keep up.  

It can happens in 2.1 systems as well (bookshelves + subwoofer). If the subwoofer is late the reason might be slow amp , not the sub. 

No well designed amps are slow - their slew rates are plenty high enough for music.

And within the pass band of the amp (say 10Hz - 100kHz or so) all audible frequencies will pass through the amp with no impact on timing.

 

All filters cause delay - and the steeper/lower the filter, the more delay - crossover filters and the natural low pass filter rolloff of a woofer in a a box cause delay - not amplifiers.

 

A well designed HiFi system caters for the delays inherent in the filters necessary for multi driver speakers and separate sub/s...often requiring the mains to be delayed more than the subs.

 

Filters muck with timing - amps don't...

And the audibility of the timing is questionable - IMHO target a smooth frequency response as the first priority - you'll hear lumpiness in the FR before any timing differences.

 

Mike

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8 hours ago, almikel said:

All filters cause delay

 

6 hours ago, Steve M said:

Phase Coherence = Accuracy = Better Timing in music reproduction.

 

A phase shift , to me, would not be described as a timing issue.  I think timing, as a description of sound, implies some delay of a greater magnitude.

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If you want to hear a good example of bad timing just listen to the Rolling Stones. On most of their recordings the rhythm section is all over the place and not keeping time with each other .This has been termed the Rolling Stones wobble and it sounds like bad wow and flutter. Some people seem to like that sort of sound however. Or are at least indifferent to it. I just find it annoying. Especially when on some recordings they have played tightly together so they can do it.Start Me Up for example. 

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15 minutes ago, THOMO said:

This has been termed the Rolling Stones wobble and it sounds like bad wow and flutter.

Another example is Ray Davies' singing for the Kinks

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The following schematic shows on the left a standard bridge single rail rectifier common to 99% of circuits in that basic form , and on the right also a bridge rectifier, however one developed purely from listening, designed to meet the requirements of resulting audio, being correctly timed. It is used presently in a low current application which has been reviewed very enthusiastically in the forum.  

 

"I have heard it in his system and I found it to be amazing, clearly better than other preamps tested at the time.

 

"a really excellent wide sound stage, stereo imaging, height, depth, separation between instruments and between vocals and instruments, realism, dynamics, rhythm"

 

Parts D4 and D5 are TL431 and Pnp transistors BC557 , the thyristors are MCR 100-6 and the Triac is BT137. There is further circuitry on the ground side, to enable the cathode load to be assessed. and on the positive side current regulation using Vref/R devices.    

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

standard vs listened bridge rectifier.jpeg

Edited by stereo coffee
moved the clearer schematic to original post

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6 minutes ago, stereo coffee said:

The following schematic shows on the left a standard bridge single rail rectifier common to 99% of circuits in that basic form , and on the right also a bridge rectifier, however one developed purely from listening, designed to meet the requirements of resulting audio, being correctly timed.

standard vs timed bridge rectifier.png

That diagram is reeaaally small and hard to make out.

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2 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

That diagram is reeaaally small and hard to make out.

Here it is as a jpeg 

standard vs listened bridge rectifier.jpeg

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On 13/12/2019 at 10:51 AM, aussievintage said:

 

This just another example of people struggling to describe, non-scientifically, what they are hearing.  Like when I asked what is "warm" sound.  If you take the terminology literally it does not make sense.  You have to be prepare to substitute your own terms for the ones they are using, and because not everyone agrees on what they mean, it results in confusion.  There is no agreed upon lexicon for this hobby :) 

You'll find warm sound as in winter, the heating inside the house is on.

Now cold and analytical, well, ... I reckon that'll be in Adelaide this coming week with all the air cons laying pipe in the heat wave ....

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8 hours ago, aussievintage said:

 

 

A phase shift , to me, would not be described as a timing issue.  I think timing, as a description of sound, implies some delay of a greater magnitude.


A phase shift will cause smearing, which will lead to blurring and a loss of accuracy - including a sense of loss of timing in the music.

 

The timing that I am talking about is difficult to express in electro-mechanical terms. You need to listen to the music, good timing is where you can easily discern, make sense and follow the performance as the artist intended ...the very real sense that the musicians are timing their individual performances on the stage very well (or not so well).

 

This sense of timing is not revealed by a low resolution less accurate sound system. I find that a highly resolved well-timed system almost seems to ‘slow down’ the music, where you clearly notice the rhythm and timing in the music. It’s an accuracy thing, but also increases the level of musical enjoyment, in my experience.

 

My explanation of timing almost sounds airy-fairy I know, but it is definitely associated with exceptional phase coherence and accuracy in the electronics and mechanics of audio systems.

 

Steve.

 

 

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On 13/12/2019 at 3:17 PM, sir sanders zingmore said:

It's a fascinating question (I think).

I've heard systems that definitely get my toes tapping more than others. But it can't actually be that any timing is out… that would manifest differently - and how could it be possible that the sound of a drum or a snare gets delayed relative to anything else… simply can't happen.

 

So what is happening I wonder?

It's way you are perceiving some other type of defect with the playback fidelity.

 

.... like for example, an error in the frequency response.  An error in the frequency response distorts the sound envelope.  ie. the timing.

Edited by davewantsmoore

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4 hours ago, bzr said:

Maybe someone without a scientifically "show me a graph" reaction to a lucky dip might appreciate this

Amplifier slew rate (as the text you quoted says) isn't unimportant..... but it doesn't sound like "fast" "slow" "the music is a bit off" types of "pace rhythm timing" this thread is talking about.

 

The idea that if it sounds fast/slow to you .... that it must be something to do with the "amplifier fast/slow" ... isn't correct.

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3 hours ago, Steve M said:

A phase shift will cause smearing, which will lead to blurring and a loss of accuracy - including a sense of loss of timing in the music

This is not a widely agreed view.....   although it can depend a lot on which/what/when/how phase shift you are referring to.

 

All else equal, and within some sane limits, we are typically quite insensitive to constant phase errors.

 

One good way to test this is to get a song, edit (only) the phase (as many different ways as you like) and record copies of the song to a CD.    Then you can use the remote to switch through versions of the song on the CD from your chair, and audition the different "phases.

 

 

Alternatively, if you mean the phase of individual drivers in a multi-driver speaker type of "phase coherency".... Then the reason these are audile is not because the phase itself is audible... but that the inter-driver phase errors , result in amplitude errors in overall response.

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On 14/12/2019 at 11:21 AM, stereo coffee said:

The following schematic shows on the left a standard bridge single rail rectifier common to 99% of circuits in that basic form , and on the right also a bridge rectifier, however one developed purely from listening, designed to meet the requirements of resulting audio, being correctly timed.

I accept that good power supply design is essential for audio, but I struggle to see how the design you posted can improve 'timing"?

 

Mike

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16 minutes ago, almikel said:

I accept that good power supply design is essential for audio, but I struggle to see how the design you posted can improve 'timing"?

It depends if he means the "actual timing" .... or if he means "something else" (which might sound like timing).

 

If he means the later ... then, that could be anything..... so it's hard to say his suggestion is meritless.

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44 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

It depends if he means the "actual timing" .... or if he means "something else" (which might sound like timing).

If people do not use an agreed upon definition of the language being used, the conversation is null and void.

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23 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

If people do not use an agreed upon definition of the language being used, the conversation is null and void.

Same for any forum isn't it though? And so very difficult to define.

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1 hour ago, almikel said:

I accept that good power supply design is essential for audio, but I struggle to see how the design you posted can improve 'timing"?

 

Mike

Evoking one of the other senses we possess, other than sight, might prove beneficial.  

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20 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

Amplifier slew rate (as the text you quoted says) isn't unimportant..... but it doesn't sound like "fast" "slow" "the music is a bit off" types of "pace rhythm timing" this thread is talking about.

 

The idea that if it sounds fast/slow to you .... that it must be something to do with the "amplifier fast/slow" ... isn't correct.

I never quoted anything, it was merely a link. I don't need people to tell me what is wrong with what I hear, I'm pretty adept at that with my own "systems"

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Thanks for all the replies and opinions guys.
Lots of info to keep reading.

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11 minutes ago, bob_m_54 said:

smell?

No,  but pretty close in terms of measurement to where they are located Yes plural , we are fortunate in having two of them, and they would be either side of this hat if it was on our head. 🎩   Do you need any more clues ? 

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