Timing and rhythm

[stereo coffee]

2 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

Apart from being a (possibly) cleverer way of providing power, how does it improve timing and rhythm?

If we review the use of feedback control systems shown here:   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback  a rather nice comparison to a car cruise control system is provided that shows, many individual comparisons are being made to correct  road disturbance on our bumpy road . 

 

If however we have no control systems, and lets say no springs in the car - we get what we get everything there is from the very potent engine and lots of passenger discomfort as well. Ride em Cowboy !  

 

Back to our power supply if we begin to address from the output ( the ride in the above example ) when the supply is to actually do its task related to what it is actually doing , we begin to separate the lets call it a  mad raw supply, addressing the topping up of pulses from rectifiers feeding capacitors  used by the circuitry  we arrive at a  solution instead, that the AC supply  be only called upon discretely, when and timed to be actually needed.  Sort of like now seeing the ghost in the room the AC supply becomes a element of control rather than being previously unseen. 

 

Our interpretation when such a power supply is  applied to certain circuitry, is somehow then  a better resemblance of  timing and rhythm in music, we enjoy the view from the passenger window  - our comfort level has risen appreciably. 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by stereo coffee

[DJGopal]

On 13/12/2019 at 5:12 PM, A9X said:

And your empirical evidence is?

Don't get smart with me.  I have no time for ignorant denialists.

[FR DRew]

I've never been ale to understand how a class A amplifier which draws a constant amount of current from the power supply needs a "fast supply" or one that responds quickly to change in demand, let alone a different brand of power cord.

 

If the current draw remains constant then there shouldn't be a change required to respond to.

 

Same, how much diode switching noise gets through a choke filtered pi filter?  So a tube rectified class A cct sounds different to a diode rectified class a cct.

 

There's certainly a massive wad of anecdotal evidence that suggest that this is the case, but the scientific/engineering part of my brain sure as hell can't explain it...

 

Anyone?

[Ittaku]

15 minutes ago, FR DRew said:

I've never been ale to understand how a class A amplifier which draws a constant amount of current from the power supply needs a "fast supply" or one that responds quickly to change in demand, let alone a different brand of power cord.

 

If the current draw remains constant then there shouldn't be a change required to respond to.

None of them do, and they all sound the same to me. But people hear all sorts of things, is my explanation.

[sir sanders zingmore]

2 hours ago, stereo coffee said:

If we review the use of feedback control systems shown here:   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback  a rather nice comparison to a car cruise control system is provided that shows, many individual comparisons are being made to correct  road disturbance on our bumpy road . 

 

If however we have no control systems, and lets say no springs in the car - we get what we get everything there is from the very potent engine and lots of passenger discomfort as well. Ride em Cowboy !  

 

Back to our power supply if we begin to address from the output ( the ride in the above example ) when the supply is to actually do its task related to what it is actually doing , we begin to separate the lets call it a  mad raw supply, addressing the topping up of pulses from rectifiers feeding capacitors  used by the circuitry  we arrive at a  solution instead, that the AC supply  be only called upon discretely, when and timed to be actually needed.  Sort of like now seeing the ghost in the room the AC supply becomes a element of control rather than being previously unseen. 

 

Our interpretation when such a power supply is  applied to certain circuitry, is somehow then  a better resemblance of  timing and rhythm in music, we enjoy the view from the passenger window  - our comfort level has risen appreciably. 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

To be honest I’m even more confused now  

[robmid]

18 hours ago, stereo coffee said:

Evoking one of the other senses we possess, other than sight, might prove beneficial.  

DIYers seem to have an advantage here, because they are not shackled to prebuilt products and spend a large amount of time just listening, in their never ending quest for perfection.

[stereo coffee]

35 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

To be honest I’m even more confused now  

Perhaps that is just too easy replying without any effort, and showing I think a strange minimal effort in another direction altogether, related to maximum effect in forums .    Why not try it yourself ,  you can let us know then, rather than being confused.  parts are MPS06 x2 bridge rectifier,  2x MCR100-6 ,2x TL431   2x BC557 , 1x BT137  2x  2k resistor and a 1000uf capacitor.  

 

 

[sir sanders zingmore]

6 minutes ago, stereo coffee said:

Perhaps that is just too easy replying without any effort, and showing I think a strange minimal effort in another direction altogether, related to maximum effect in forums .    Why not try it yourself ,  you can let us know then, rather than being confused.  parts are MPS06 x2 bridge rectifier,  2x MCR100-6 ,2x TL431   2x BC557 , 1x BT137  2x  2k resistor and a 1000uf capacitor.  

 

 

My electronic skills are zero. I wouldn’t know where to start. 

 

Maybe I’ll try to understand your analogy better. 

A car with with adaptive suspension (one that senses road conditions, speed etc) might ride better than one that has a one size fits all type of suspension?

 

if that’s sort of what you mean, I still don’t get how power supply (suspension) translates into timing and rhythm ? 

Is timing and rhythm determined by the “ride” of the power supply?

[stereo coffee]

6 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

My electronic skills are zero. I wouldn’t know where to start. 

 

Maybe I’ll try to understand your analogy better. 

A car with with adaptive suspension (one that senses road conditions, speed etc) might ride better than one that has a one size fits all type of suspension?

 

if that’s sort of what you mean, I still don’t get how power supply (suspension) translates into timing and rhythm ? 

Is timing and rhythm determined by the “ride” of the power supply?

You need to read in context of the Wikipedia article, which I  exampled might make the concept of electronic feedback easier to visualise 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feedback    As i see you are unfamiliar in your reply, with electronics parts and skills, so fortuitous I chose hopefully  a more familiar comparison in the first place.    

 

"As an example of negative feedback, the diagram might represent a cruise control system in a car, for example, that matches a target speed such as the speed limit. The controlled system is the car; its input includes the combined torque from the engine and from the changing slope of the road (the disturbance). The car's speed (status) is measured by a speedometer. The error signal is the departure of the speed as measured by the speedometer from the target speed (set point). This measured error is interpreted by the controller to adjust the accelerator, commanding the fuel flow to the engine (the effector). The resulting change in engine torque, the feedback, combines with the torque exerted by the changing road grade to reduce the error in speed, minimizing the road disturbance." 

 

In electronics if the load can address the input it similarly creates a powerful force to control the circuit that otherwise goes missing. It is seen as a advantage in circuitry, to have any such control element.    

 

The upside, is its possible for any one to embrace DIY ... ( I spent over 8 years studying in a public library, Christiansen and Fink was a favourite book  https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/000222724 )  which is a matter of finding within yourself a thirst for knowledge and adaption of applying the skills you have and perhaps at the same time  learning new ones. It should create a new level of appreciation when the needle hits the groove - or the alternative when one presses play.     

 

 

 

[aussievintage]

and noone is game to say anything?  That's the downside of all the complaining about arguments that happen when people with the appropriate knowledge try to straighten things out.

[Ittaku]

4 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

and noone is game to say anything?  That's the downside of all the complaining about arguments that happen when people with the appropriate knowledge try to straighten things out.

Sure. Still can't see how that can translate into better timing. Sounds nice full of analogies and stuff, but nothing really concrete. Having more than enough current all the time is not anything like any car analogy, nor can I see how it's disadvantageous. I trust where he said it sounded better, that's about the only concrete thing I saw, though that has as much value as any other subjective comparison.

[aussievintage]

Just now, Ittaku said:

Still can't see how that can translate into better timing.

It can't.

 

Just now, Ittaku said:

Sounds nice full of analogies and stuff, but nothing really concrete.

Exactly.  Design by intuition.

 

1 minute ago, Ittaku said:

Having more than enough current all the time is not anything like any car analogy, nor can I see how it's disadvantageous.

It isn't.

 

1 minute ago, Ittaku said:

I trust where he said it sounded better, that's about the only concrete thing I saw, though that has as much value as any other subjective comparison.

All I can say is the usual, I believe he believes it sounds better.    

[sir sanders zingmore]

23 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

Sure. Still can't see how that can translate into better timing. Sounds nice full of analogies and stuff, but nothing really concrete. Having more than enough current all the time is not anything like any car analogy, nor can I see how it's disadvantageous. I trust where he said it sounded better, that's about the only concrete thing I saw, though that has as much value as any other subjective comparison.

Yes that’s what I’m trying to understand too

[MattyW]

On 14/12/2019 at 9:43 AM, THOMO said:

If you want to hear a good example of bad timing just listen to the Rolling Stones. On most of their recordings the rhythm section is all over the place and not keeping time with each other .This has been termed the Rolling Stones wobble and it sounds like bad wow and flutter. Some people seem to like that sort of sound however. Or are at least indifferent to it. I just find it annoying. Especially when on some recordings they have played tightly together so they can do it.Start Me Up for example. 

Explains why for the most part I've never understood why people love the Rolling Stones... I do like a few of their songs though not many 

[MattyW]

On 14/12/2019 at 5:23 PM, Steve M said:

A phase shift will cause smearing, which will lead to blurring and a loss of accuracy - including a sense of loss of timing in the music.

 

The timing that I am talking about is difficult to express in electro-mechanical terms. You need to listen to the music, good timing is where you can easily discern, make sense and follow the performance as the artist intended ...the very real sense that the musicians are timing their individual performances on the stage very well (or not so well).

 

This sense of timing is not revealed by a low resolution less accurate sound system. I find that a highly resolved well-timed system almost seems to ‘slow down’ the music, where you clearly notice the rhythm and timing in the music. It’s an accuracy thing, but also increases the level of musical enjoyment, in my experience.

This has certainly been my experience. I find a fast system doesn't have to mean hyper detailed (that indicates an issue of some kind) though rather the recording slows down,  flows and sounds more natural.

 

Sometimes a system gives the illusion of naturalness by omitting detail (Zenith 49CZ924 drivers) however unless you're hearing everything what's the point. When done right even the finest details are present in a completely natural,  organic presentation..... Except where that presentation doesn't exist in the recording in the first place. 

[robmid]

Chris has been more than generous to share some of his 'hands on' knowledge of LDR preamp current control with this thread instead of the usual uninformed arguments which don't help anybody and get threads shut down.

 

We all need to learn by *listening to others with more knowledge about common but largely unexplored topics.

 

* I'm older than you so I can say that!

 

If I don't understand something I learn more by trying to emulate it myself than putting it in the too hard basket. 

[davewantsmoore]

10 minutes ago, robmid said:

largely unexplored topics

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that this is "unexplored territory", just because it seems like unexplored territory to you or the people posting here.

 

If Chris was able to communicate about this in less vague terms, I'm sure we would soon discover that there is nothing mystical going on here.    I don't mean to be a wet blanket, or seem closed minded, but people have been designing PS for a century, and while there's plenty of things which have been forgotten by some, and ignored by others, the laws of physics have remained constant.

[stereo coffee]

8 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that this is "unexplored territory", just because it seems like unexplored territory to you or the people posting here.

 

If Chris was able to communicate about this in less vague terms, I'm sure we would soon discover that there is nothing mystical going on here.    I don't mean to be a wet blanket, or seem closed minded, but people have been designing PS for a century, and while there's plenty of things which have been forgotten by some, and ignored by others, the laws of physics have remained constant.

You need to factor in economics with few engineers on the payroll  but many accountants dictating,  that manufacturers supply only what just works.   Once that is factored in, you should find the possibilities, with what physics can actually do,  are largely being ignored.   

Edited December 17, 2019 by stereo coffee

[stereo coffee]

The benefits of using thyristors to improve rectifier circuits has been known for many years, and can be explored here:  

UnControlled Bridge Rectifiers  vs Controlled   https://www.elprocus.com/bridge-rectifier-circuit-theory-with-working-operation/

[sir sanders zingmore]

Maybe I’m missing some connection here but it feels like there are two parallel threads running. 

One is about timing & rhythm and the other is about power supplies. 

 

I’m pleased that there may be progress in developing a better power supply. However, I can’t understand what if any, connection that has with timing & rhythm. 

[aussievintage]

10 minutes ago, stereo coffee said:

The benefits of using thyristors to improve rectifier circuits has been known for many years, and can be explored here:  

UnControlled Bridge Rectifiers  vs Controlled   https://www.elprocus.com/bridge-rectifier-circuit-theory-with-working-operation/

That's a different thing to what you are doing.

[aussievintage]

1 minute ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

Maybe I’m missing some connection here but it feels like there are two parallel threads running. 

One is about timing & rhythm and the other is about power supplies. 

 

 

That's because the (vague) connection has yet to be explained by the proponent.  

[robmid]

12 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that this is "unexplored territory", just because it seems like unexplored territory to you or the people posting here.

 

If Chris was able to communicate about this in less vague terms, I'm sure we would soon discover that there is nothing mystical going on here.    I don't mean to be a wet blanket, or seem closed minded, but people have been designing PS for a century, and while there's plenty of things which have been forgotten by some, and ignored by others, the laws of physics have remained constant.

I actually said 'unexplored TOPICS', like this thread on timing which hasn't been very informative.

 

Yes, people have been designing many different types of PS for a century and they have evolved into the vast number of iterations we see now because designers explored alternatives using constant laws of physics.

 

How did the humble crystal set evolve into a digital radio without exploring?

How did the valve amp evolve into a solid state amp without exploring?

How did the solid state amp evolve into a Class-D amplifier without exploring and bending laws of physics?

 

I am not getting into a fruitless argument about Chris, because after A/B testing more than 10 effective upgrades of his PS designs I am sitting back enjoying my hybrid ESLs, bi-amped nCore Hypexes enjoying the essence of music brought to my ears by the very knowledge that Chris has shared here.

 

Sorry, this is my response and I am going to watch posts to see if I can learn more about timing.

[sir sanders zingmore]

1 minute ago, robmid said:

How did the valve amp evolve into a solid state amp without exploring?

How did the solid state amp evolve into a Class-D amplifier without exploring and bending laws of physics?

All backward steps  

 

[stereo coffee]

8 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

That's a different thing to what you are doing.

Agree, one is simplified and not showing any interaction of the gates to other circuitry, and mine is.