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A completely new direction for me, so I'm starting a new thread.  Adding this to the old thread did not make sense. 

 

Said I'd stay away from valve pwr amps; and had reservations about horns, but stuff comes up and I made a change to what I never envisaged.  It sounds good, but still more changes to come.  

 

From Magneplanar 20.7 to Trio XD.  From AVM MA 8.2 to AR Ref 160M.  From Koetsu Onyx to Ortofon MC Anna.  The Onyx had a low output resulting in the phonostage running out of gain on the MG20.7.  The MC Anna has even lower output, but luckily the change to Trio XD gives me plenty of gain to easily cover the low output of the MC Anna. 

 

For over two decades I have not been happy with my analog set up.  It has under performed.   I think I needed to use a step up transformer for the Onyx and have the Onyx retipped by Koetsu.  With the MC Anna I love my analog sound. 

 

The Trio is not flat to 100hz.  The REL does not go much above 120hz.  We have a problem Houston.  No midbass in the current setup.  I've been moving the subs around, but there is no cure for component limitations. (See Later, I changed Trio setup).

 

These pictures are ugly, but I'm an audiophile not a bloomin' home decorator. 

 

The setup is Ortofon MC Anna on Graham 1.5t on Aura tt.  AR ph8 phonostage. AR Ref 6 preamp. AR Ref 160M pwr amp. Trio XD maiin speakers. REL 212se subs.  Cables are Audioquest and Synergistic Research.  Two dedicated 20A circuits and 2 dedicated 15A circuits.  Custom fuses on any component that needs them.  They do reduce noise floor. 

 

 

DSC_0021.thumb.JPG.51be5b3c6e330dc3ab8e54d128eeff73.JPG

 

 

DSC_0018.thumb.JPG.4aa8176cb1b8902aae7d88b2715ec1fb.JPGDSC_0022.thumb.JPG.837981e3c5635621a92d0052c8cd672f.JPGDSC_0006.thumb.JPG.8a580a2e807628221ff0f1f7e39271c0.JPG

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A completely new direction for me, so I'm starting a new thread.  Adding this to the old thread did not make sense.    Said I'd stay away from valve pwr amps; and had reservations about horn

COVID-19 late night Lockdown cure:     All sonic problems solved.  The problem was that diffusers were set up for dipoles.  I moved two diffusors from the front wall to the back w

Yes, the upper limit on subwoofer crossovers as determined by the quality of bass above that frequency.  You want quality not just quantity from subwoofers, otherwise they are a rubbish product.  In f



WOW - Brilliant. Congratulations mate. 

 

Looking forward to hearing how you solve that mid bass issue. 

 

Do you plan on hanging onto the Ref 160M's given the efficiency of the XD's?

Edited by Galactic Soap
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The subwoofer will be capable of much higher frequencies than 120Hz.... if the electronics will allow it.

 

 

I thought there might be a chance that your subwoofer bypassed it's crossover (low pass filter, which can only be moved up to 120Hz) if you used its LFE/.1 intput

 

.... so I looked in the manual.      To say "the manual is unclear about this" seems a comical understatement.

 

Give it a go and see what happens (if you haven't already).

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6 hours ago, GroovyGuru said:

A completely new direction for me, so I'm starting a new thread.  Adding this to the old thread did not make sense. 

 

Said I'd stay away from valve pwr amps; and had reservations about horns, but stuff comes up and I made a change to what I never envisaged.  It sounds good, but still more changes to come.  

 

From Magneplanar 20.7 to Trio XD.  From AVM MA 8.2 to AR Ref 160M.  From Koetsu Onyx to Ortofon MC Anna.  The Onyx had a low output resulting in the phonostage running out of gain on the MG20.7.  The MC Anna has even lower output, but luckily the change to Trio XD gives me plenty of gain to easily cover the low output of the MC Anna. 

 

For over two decades I have not been happy with my analog set up.  It has under performed.   I think I needed to use a step up transformer for the Onyx and have the Onyx retipped by Koetsu.  With the MC Anna I love my analog sound. 

 

The Trio does not go much below 200hz.  The REL does not go much above 120hz.  We have a problem Houston.  No midbass in the current setup.  I've been moving the subs around, but there is no cure for component limitations.

 

These pictures are ugly, but I'm an audiophile not a bloomin' home decorator. 

 

The setup is Ortofon MC Anna on Graham 1.5t on Aura tt.  AR ph8 phonostage. AR Ref 6 preamp. AR Ref 160M pwr amp. Trio XD maiin speakers. REL 212se subs.  Cables are Audioquest and Synergistic Research.  Two dedicated 20A circuits and 2 dedicated 15A circuits.  Custom fuses on any component that needs them.  They do reduce noise floor. 

 

 

DSC_0021.thumb.JPG.51be5b3c6e330dc3ab8e54d128eeff73.JPG

 

 

DSC_0018.thumb.JPG.4aa8176cb1b8902aae7d88b2715ec1fb.JPGDSC_0022.thumb.JPG.837981e3c5635621a92d0052c8cd672f.JPGDSC_0006.thumb.JPG.8a580a2e807628221ff0f1f7e39271c0.JPG

Looks great @GroovyGuru.

I like the Avantgardes.

Was always curious to hear the high end Ortofons.

 

I'm surprised about the Trio's only going down to 200 hz, I would have thought they'd go a lot lower.

How do Avantgarde go about running these speakers?

Do they run separate woofers?

 

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4 minutes ago, Martykt said:

Looks great @GroovyGuru.

I like the Avantgardes.

Was always curious to hear the high end Ortofons.

 

I'm surprised about the Trio's only going down to 200 hz, I would have thought they'd go a lot lower.

How do Avantgarde go about running these speakers?

Do they run separate woofers?

 

 

header-trio.jpg

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8 hours ago, Bunno77 said:

Very nice.

Do you need Avantgarde's own subs to fill the gap? 

Avantgarde subs don't go very low, but they do go into the midbass.

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2 minutes ago, GroovyGuru said:

Avantgarde subs don't go very low, but they do go into the midbass.

It looks like you can use the bass section from the Uno and Duo's too. Maybe they cover it all? Surely Avantgarde wouldn't leave out a section of the spectrum?

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4 hours ago, Martykt said:

Looks great @GroovyGuru.

I like the Avantgardes.

Was always curious to hear the high end Ortofons.

 

I'm surprised about the Trio's only going down to 200 hz, I would have thought they'd go a lot lower.

How do Avantgarde go about running these speakers?

Do they run separate woofers?

 

Yes, the Trio needs to be paired with Avantgarde subs.  I was hoping the REL would cope.  It doesn't do a bad job. 

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11 hours ago, GroovyGuru said:

A completely new direction for me, so I'm starting a new thread.  Adding this to the old thread did not make sense. 

 

Said I'd stay away from valve pwr amps; and had reservations about horns, but stuff comes up and I made a change to what I never envisaged.  It sounds good, but still more changes to come.  

 

From Magneplanar 20.7 to Trio XD.  From AVM MA 8.2 to AR Ref 160M.  From Koetsu Onyx to Ortofon MC Anna.  The Onyx had a low output resulting in the phonostage running out of gain on the MG20.7.  The MC Anna has even lower output, but luckily the change to Trio XD gives me plenty of gain to easily cover the low output of the MC Anna. 

 

For over two decades I have not been happy with my analog set up.  It has under performed.   I think I needed to use a step up transformer for the Onyx and have the Onyx retipped by Koetsu.  With the MC Anna I love my analog sound. 

 

The Trio does not go much below 200hz.  The REL does not go much above 120hz.  We have a problem Houston.  No midbass in the current setup.  I've been moving the subs around, but there is no cure for component limitations.

 

These pictures are ugly, but I'm an audiophile not a bloomin' home decorator. 

 

The setup is Ortofon MC Anna on Graham 1.5t on Aura tt.  AR ph8 phonostage. AR Ref 6 preamp. AR Ref 160M pwr amp. Trio XD maiin speakers. REL 212se subs.  Cables are Audioquest and Synergistic Research.  Two dedicated 20A circuits and 2 dedicated 15A circuits.  Custom fuses on any component that needs them.  They do reduce noise floor. 

 

 

DSC_0021.thumb.JPG.51be5b3c6e330dc3ab8e54d128eeff73.JPG

 

 

DSC_0018.thumb.JPG.4aa8176cb1b8902aae7d88b2715ec1fb.JPGDSC_0022.thumb.JPG.837981e3c5635621a92d0052c8cd672f.JPGDSC_0006.thumb.JPG.8a580a2e807628221ff0f1f7e39271c0.JPG

I have MC Anna on a Helix 2 with Schroder CB arm.  It is some kind of magic...

Edited by acg
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I think trio goes down to 150 and up to  20k hz. I am told the three horns blend together better than the duos which I have.

rel goes up to 150 I think. I’ve tested with the model below the 212se.

tuning is gonna be a *****.

ag subs will recommend a selectable range from 60 to 150 hz for matching the trio. 
 

 

 

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I’d recommend you get some herbies giant gliders for the subs and the speakers. Will give you more clarity and make it easy to move those heavy things around. Which is probably the most difficult thing to do while tuning given the weights. 
At the same time get some herbies tube dampers for your ref6. They will increase clarity as well. 
Immediate upgrade and no burn in time required for both.

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I downloaded and read the through the 212SE subwoofer manual as well and the only thing it says is that the crossover can be set anywhere from 30 to 120Hz. It says nothing more, nor if there's a way to bypass the crossover entirely. 12" woofers should easily do up to much more than that so it is purely an electronic limit unfortunately. Perhaps they know the quality of frequencies those woofers reproduce above that range isn't ideal. My 16" subwoofer goes up to 230Hz with the crossover disabled, but the sound quality from that woofer above 80Hz is pretty bad.

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1 hour ago, Ittaku said:

I downloaded and read the through the 212SE subwoofer manual as well and the only thing it says is that the crossover can be set anywhere from 30 to 120Hz. It says nothing more, nor if there's a way to bypass the crossover entirely. 12" woofers should easily do up to much more than that so it is purely an electronic limit unfortunately. Perhaps they know the quality of frequencies those woofers reproduce above that range isn't ideal. My 16" subwoofer goes up to 230Hz with the crossover disabled, but the sound quality from that woofer above 80Hz is pretty bad.

Yes, the upper limit on subwoofer crossovers as determined by the quality of bass above that frequency.  You want quality not just quantity from subwoofers, otherwise they are a rubbish product.  In fact REL don't even like the 212se at 120hz.   

 

For some reason, people seem to think I'm getting bad sound and I need to rearrange setup.  For the record, I'm getting good sound and don't need to do anything but pair up with a higher reaching sub.   I set up the Trio first, to get maximum bass from it.  Then I set up the sub, which is the way to set up a system. 

Edited by GroovyGuru
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That's great that it's sounding good already. Most guys complain that they can't get the balance correct between the bass section and the horn section even with the stock woofers.

I love the look of the ref160. It's not a common choice for horns - how do you find them with your horns? Do you get much noise/hiss from them?

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46 minutes ago, haygeebaby said:

That's great that it's sounding good already. Most guys complain that they can't get the balance correct between the bass section and the horn section even with the stock woofers.

I love the look of the ref160. It's not a common choice for horns - how do you find them with your horns? Do you get much noise/hiss from them?

The current Audio Research power amps are extremely quiet amplifiers from my experience with my own (different models.) From Stereophile's measurements on the 160M:

 

image.png.c25114d93e47a987cb16c699b5a69d05.png

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@GroovyGuru

 

Did you ever consider a low watt tube amp  ?

 

(not to correct what you currently believe you are lacking, but as an alternative of the amplifiers you currently use )

Edited by Caelian
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33 minutes ago, GroovyGuru said:

 

For some reason, people seem to think I'm getting bad sound and I need to rearrange setup.  For the record, I'm getting good sound and don't need to do anything but pair up with a higher reaching sub.

 

 

I'm sure it sounds great, Peter - but you yourself said the Trios don't go much below 200Hz.

 

That hole is not something you can solve by 'rearranging' your gear, I suggest?

 

Andy

 

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12 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

@GroovyGuru one thing I’ve always wondered about the trios is whether the horns are fixed in position on the frame? Can you “fine tune” the sound by moving the horns?

The Trios can be tilted to fine tune the sound.  They are delivered with socks on the feet which can be slid.  When set up is complete then you take the feet socks off. 

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7 hours ago, haygeebaby said:

That's great that it's sounding good already. Most guys complain that they can't get the balance correct between the bass section and the horn section even with the stock woofers.

I love the look of the ref160. It's not a common choice for horns - how do you find them with your horns? Do you get much noise/hiss from them?

No problem with noise.  I've been in audio 40 yrs.  I've experienced valve gear before. The Ref 6 & 160m are the quietest valve gear I have heard. 

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It must sound incredible. I have heard Zeros, Unos and Duos a few times now and they are amazing enough

The Ref6 is a big jump over Ref5SE too

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39 minutes ago, GroovyGuru said:

No problem with noise.  I've been in audio 40 yrs.  I've experienced valve gear before. The Ref 6 & 160m are the quietest valve gear I have heard. 


No hiss is very good. I still get some minor hiss with a pass Labs xa 30.8 on my horns. Paired with the ref6 and ls28 in both cases.

How will you solve this bass problem groovy? Did the supplier make any suggestions? 
When I had the rel 5sho in my system I could never get the sub bass level correct. Some tracks worked well but most did not. Hard to fine tune in my experience. introducing a crossover box was going to be next but I never got that far. 
Auto calibration on the xd units is a big win in my opinion. 

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8 minutes ago, haygeebaby said:


No hiss is very good. I still get some minor hiss with a pass Labs xa 30.8 on my horns. Paired with the ref6 and ls28 in both cases.

How will you solve this bass problem groovy? Did the supplier make any suggestions? 
When I had the rel 5sho in my system I could never get the sub bass level correct. Some tracks worked well but most did not. Hard to fine tune in my experience. introducing a crossover box was going to be next but I never got that far. 
Auto calibration on the xd units is a big win in my opinion. 

I've had Threshold gear.  Nelson Pass is not a low noise designer.  There was hiss on his Fet 10e phonostage and preamp with low output MC.  The tone on his gear is among the best in SS.  

 

I have everything under control or I wouldn't have posted this thread.  

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I've fixed most of the bass issue by throwing away the REL rule book and adopting the GroovyGuru rule book.  REL 212se is set at 120hz and volume is at 3 o'clock.  

 

I think I had previously set the REL volume too low.  They were loafing.  They now can do room lock where there is low bass. 

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1 hour ago, GroovyGuru said:

I've fixed most of the bass issue by throwing away the REL rule book and adopting the GroovyGuru rule book.  REL 212se is set at 120hz and volume is at 3 o'clock.  

 


Peter,

 

Sometimes this is the ‘right’ thing to do. I find that my own attempts to marry large outboard bass units with either my Edgar Horns or the Orange Direct Drive ESLs it is better to run the woofer settings higher up the frequency range and increase the volume level to get the woofers moving and be reactive. This better keeps up with the impact and speed of the horn section.

 

Btw, AlistairM or Tax/Taksil on this forum are good people to pick their brains about bass settings with Avantgarde. Both are long term Trio users, Tax was using a pair of sealed 10” Duo woofer boxes to good effect in his pseudo Trio/Azurehorn spkrs, similarly Alistair with a true Trio set-up. You can make these speakers sound however you like by adjusting the bass output, Tax’s was strong and impactful while Alistair’s accurate and lighter on its feet.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve.

 

 

 

 

.

Edited by Steve M
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1 hour ago, Steve M said:


Peter,

 

Sometimes this is the ‘right’ thing to do. I find that my own attempts to marry large outboard bass units with either my Edgar Horns or the Orange Direct Drive ESLs it is better to run the woofer settings higher up the frequency range and increase the volume level to get the woofers moving and be reactive. This better keeps up with the impact and speed of the horn section.

 

Btw, AlistairM or Tax/Taksil on this forum are good people to pick their brains about bass settings with Avantgarde. Both are long term Trio users, Tax was using a pair of sealed 10” Duo woofer boxes to good effect in his pseudo Trio/Azurehorn spkrs, similarly Alistair with a true Trio set-up. You can make these speakers sound however you like by adjusting the bass output, Tax’s was strong and impactful while Alistair’s accurate and lighter on its feet.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve.

 

 

 

 

.

It helped the RELs that I repositioned my Trios.  I didn't think I had the Trios on the 1/3 room node.  They were too far back.  I pulled them closer by a few centremetres and now the Trios have bass.  

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      Buyer to pay PayPal fees if applicable
      Local pickup available or shipping at buyers expense
      Photos form part of description
      Recently serviced by Chris at Kimil Electronics Sydney - the best in the
      business- balance of 3 months warranty remaining



      From the Audio Research Website:
      We are pleased to introduce the new DAC8 digital to analog converter.
      Although physically similar to its predecessor, the DAC8 represents new
      engineering that advances the state of the art in high resolution USB audio
      and S/PDIF audio.

      Audio Research has maximized the USB capability of the DAC8 by incorporating
      USB 2.0 HS (High Speed) which runs at 480Mbps. USB 2.0 HS has a lower jitter
      specification than USB 2.0 FS (Full Speed 12mbps), consequently the DAC8 is
      capable of reproducing music at higher definition/resolution (up to 24/192)
      than products communicating at USB 2.0 FS speeds (24/96).

      In addition, the DAC8 employs a low jitter Dual Master Oscillator design
      that will provide superior digital to analog conversion via its USB 2.0 HS
      input as well as via the more traditional S/PDIF (RCA, BNC, Toslink and
      AES/EBU) inputs that are also included on the DAC8. Our USB 2.0 HS audio
      interface is optimized for all six sample- rates currently in popular use;
      44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4 and 192kHz.

      In the past, S/PDIF was the default interface mode for High Resolution music
      files at 176.4 and 192kHz. Now, with Audio Research's Dual Master
      Oscillator, USB 2.0 HS interface, and our Quad D/A converter design, USB
      audio is finally elevated to the status once dominated by S/PDIF.

      Consequently, regardless of whichever digital input you select, the Audio
      Research DAC8 promises to provide a superior listening experience.

      In addition to the High Performance USB design, the DAC8 features:

      "DAC8 HD Audio Device" software drivers, which allow listening to your music
      in its native sample rate as well as assuring BIT PERFECT, low jitter, data
      transfer from the computer to your DAC8. Because PC and Mac operating
      systems do not adequately support sample rates over 96kHz, Audio Research
      has developed ASIO drivers to make the USB audio experience sonically
      transparent at all sample rates. Sample Rate measuring function: Measures
      and displays the correct digital sample rate being sent to the DAC8. This
      works in USB as well as S/PDIF mode. Consequently, at a glance, you always
      know exactly which sample rate is being decoded. The DAC8 employs four
      24-bit D/A converters. Each channel uses dual 24-bit D/A converters running
      in mono mode to lower the noise floor and increase the dynamic range. Dual
      Master Oscillators: When the time base of any DAC is not an integer multiple
      of the digital music sample rate, decoding and quantization errors occur.
      Consequently, the DAC8 uses two low jitter Master Oscillators; one for 44.1,
      88.2 & 176.4kHz sample rates and the other for 48, 96 & 192 kHz sample
      rates. The DAC8 automatically selects the correct Master Oscillator the
      instant digital music is detected at the selected input. All inputs are
      galvanically isolated from the source to reduce or eliminate noise and/or
      jitter from entering the DAC8. The Analog amplifiers in the DAC8 have
      received the same attention to detail as the digital section. Each channel
      of the DAC8 uses a true direct-coupled differential amplifier with a
      bandwidth in excess of 90kHz. The DAC8's USB and S/PDIF inputs are designed
      to accept signals from an HRx, 176.4kHz, 24-bit, High-Resolution music
      server system playing HRx's DVD-R recordings. See
      www.referencerecordings.com/HRxSETUPS.asp for recommended music server
      setups. By virtue of all of the above points and our proprietary software
      drivers, intrinsic jitter has been reduced to less than 10ps.

      DAC8 HD AUDIO DEVICE SOFTWARE DRIVERS:

      The DAC8's USB driver software provides your computer with special
      high-speed audio drivers not supplied by MS Windows or Mac OS. The Audio
      Research USB drivers are specially designed to assure low jitter BIT PERFECT
      data transfer between the server/computer and the DAC8 at all sample rates.
      Our drivers setup the USB interface to guarantee bandwidth, independent of
      active bulk transfers from the hard drive.

      From the ARC icon in your computer's input tray you can set the DAC8 to any
      sample rate from 44.1 to 192kHz and allow the music server/management
      software to up or down convert your music to the selected sample rate.

      Music lovers can use custom sample rate conversion algorithms or other file
      formats provided by third party suppliers such as Windows Media Player,
      iTunes, J Rivers Media Center, Media Monkey, FooBar, and many others to
      optimize your music experience.

      The DAC8 is a fully balanced, zero-feedback, solid-state design utilizing a
      direct-coupled FET output stage with generous regulated power supplies and
      seven stages of regulation. There are separate new digital and audio power
      transformers, and the board material is the same as what we use in our
      Reference products. Dynamic, forceful, immediate, and possessing remarkable
      resolution and transparency, the DAC8 is a sonic knockout that is worthy of
      the finest music systems.

      With a choice of high-resolution 24/192 S/PDIF inputs (RCA, BNC, AES/EBU and
      Toslink) in addition to the highest resolution 24/192 USB available, the
      ability to adjust sample rates, the DAC8 provides the new standard in high
      performance digital music playback.
       

        Photos:
       
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