Avantgarde & Audio Research

[haygeebaby]

That's great that it's sounding good already. Most guys complain that they can't get the balance correct between the bass section and the horn section even with the stock woofers.

I love the look of the ref160. It's not a common choice for horns - how do you find them with your horns? Do you get much noise/hiss from them?

Edited December 12, 2019 by haygeebaby

[Ittaku]

46 minutes ago, haygeebaby said:

That's great that it's sounding good already. Most guys complain that they can't get the balance correct between the bass section and the horn section even with the stock woofers.

I love the look of the ref160. It's not a common choice for horns - how do you find them with your horns? Do you get much noise/hiss from them?

The current Audio Research power amps are extremely quiet amplifiers from my experience with my own (different models.) From Stereophile's measurements on the 160M:

 

[Eggmeister]

@GroovyGuru

 

Did you ever consider a low watt tube amp  ?

 

(not to correct what you currently believe you are lacking, but as an alternative of the amplifiers you currently use )

Edited December 12, 2019 by Caelian

[andyr]

33 minutes ago, GroovyGuru said:

 

For some reason, people seem to think I'm getting bad sound and I need to rearrange setup.  For the record, I'm getting good sound and don't need to do anything but pair up with a higher reaching sub.

 

 

I'm sure it sounds great, Peter - but you yourself said the Trios don't go much below 200Hz.

 

That hole is not something you can solve by 'rearranging' your gear, I suggest?

 

Andy

 

[WorkinClassAudio]

12 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

@GroovyGuru one thing I’ve always wondered about the trios is whether the horns are fixed in position on the frame? Can you “fine tune” the sound by moving the horns?

The Trios can be tilted to fine tune the sound.  They are delivered with socks on the feet which can be slid.  When set up is complete then you take the feet socks off. 

[WorkinClassAudio]

7 hours ago, haygeebaby said:

That's great that it's sounding good already. Most guys complain that they can't get the balance correct between the bass section and the horn section even with the stock woofers.

I love the look of the ref160. It's not a common choice for horns - how do you find them with your horns? Do you get much noise/hiss from them?

No problem with noise.  I've been in audio 40 yrs.  I've experienced valve gear before. The Ref 6 & 160m are the quietest valve gear I have heard. 

[Bunno77]

It must sound incredible. I have heard Zeros, Unos and Duos a few times now and they are amazing enough

The Ref6 is a big jump over Ref5SE too

Edited December 12, 2019 by Bunno77
.

[haygeebaby]

39 minutes ago, GroovyGuru said:

No problem with noise.  I've been in audio 40 yrs.  I've experienced valve gear before. The Ref 6 & 160m are the quietest valve gear I have heard. 

No hiss is very good. I still get some minor hiss with a pass Labs xa 30.8 on my horns. Paired with the ref6 and ls28 in both cases.

How will you solve this bass problem groovy? Did the supplier make any suggestions? 
When I had the rel 5sho in my system I could never get the sub bass level correct. Some tracks worked well but most did not. Hard to fine tune in my experience. introducing a crossover box was going to be next but I never got that far. 
Auto calibration on the xd units is a big win in my opinion. 

[WorkinClassAudio]

8 minutes ago, haygeebaby said:

No hiss is very good. I still get some minor hiss with a pass Labs xa 30.8 on my horns. Paired with the ref6 and ls28 in both cases.

How will you solve this bass problem groovy? Did the supplier make any suggestions? 
When I had the rel 5sho in my system I could never get the sub bass level correct. Some tracks worked well but most did not. Hard to fine tune in my experience. introducing a crossover box was going to be next but I never got that far. 
Auto calibration on the xd units is a big win in my opinion. 

I've had Threshold gear.  Nelson Pass is not a low noise designer.  There was hiss on his Fet 10e phonostage and preamp with low output MC.  The tone on his gear is among the best in SS.  

 

I have everything under control or I wouldn't have posted this thread.  

[Rocketfrogs]

52 minutes ago, GroovyGuru said:

I have everything under control or I wouldn't have posted this thread.  

Awesome!

[WorkinClassAudio]

I've fixed most of the bass issue by throwing away the REL rule book and adopting the GroovyGuru rule book.  REL 212se is set at 120hz and volume is at 3 o'clock.  

 

I think I had previously set the REL volume too low.  They were loafing.  They now can do room lock where there is low bass. 

[Grant Slack]

Hello Peter, love the term "room lock", I have never before heard it.    cheers, Grant

[Steve M]

1 hour ago, GroovyGuru said:

I've fixed most of the bass issue by throwing away the REL rule book and adopting the GroovyGuru rule book.  REL 212se is set at 120hz and volume is at 3 o'clock.  

 

Peter,

 

Sometimes this is the ‘right’ thing to do. I find that my own attempts to marry large outboard bass units with either my Edgar Horns or the Orange Direct Drive ESLs it is better to run the woofer settings higher up the frequency range and increase the volume level to get the woofers moving and be reactive. This better keeps up with the impact and speed of the horn section.

 

Btw, AlistairM or Tax/Taksil on this forum are good people to pick their brains about bass settings with Avantgarde. Both are long term Trio users, Tax was using a pair of sealed 10” Duo woofer boxes to good effect in his pseudo Trio/Azurehorn spkrs, similarly Alistair with a true Trio set-up. You can make these speakers sound however you like by adjusting the bass output, Tax’s was strong and impactful while Alistair’s accurate and lighter on its feet.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve.

 

 

 

 

.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Steve M

[WorkinClassAudio]

1 hour ago, Steve M said:

Peter,

 

Sometimes this is the ‘right’ thing to do. I find that my own attempts to marry large outboard bass units with either my Edgar Horns or the Orange Direct Drive ESLs it is better to run the woofer settings higher up the frequency range and increase the volume level to get the woofers moving and be reactive. This better keeps up with the impact and speed of the horn section.

 

Btw, AlistairM or Tax/Taksil on this forum are good people to pick their brains about bass settings with Avantgarde. Both are long term Trio users, Tax was using a pair of sealed 10” Duo woofer boxes to good effect in his pseudo Trio/Azurehorn spkrs, similarly Alistair with a true Trio set-up. You can make these speakers sound however you like by adjusting the bass output, Tax’s was strong and impactful while Alistair’s accurate and lighter on its feet.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve.

 

 

 

 

.

It helped the RELs that I repositioned my Trios.  I didn't think I had the Trios on the 1/3 room node.  They were too far back.  I pulled them closer by a few centremetres and now the Trios have bass.  

[Steve M]

Amazing looking system btw, Peter. 

[WorkinClassAudio]

Fixed the bass problem.  Switched the tweeters to the outside.  The sound is much better than having the tweeters on the inside.  The drivers are better integrated, giving a much fuller sound linking midrange driver better with the woofer.  More air is being moved.  The bass is now that much better I can play Massive Attack.  And the REL 212 had to be wound back.  Crossover at 100hz and volume taken back a little.   

 

With the tweeters on the inside the sound was too lean with a tendency to be shrill.  The tweeters swamped the other drivers. 

 

[Ittaku]

7 minutes ago, GroovyGuru said:

Fixed the bass problem.  Switched the tweeters to the outside.  The sound is much better than having the tweeters on the inside.  The drivers are better integrated, giving a much fuller sound linking midrange driver better with the woofer.  More air is being moved.  The bass is now that much better I can play Massive Attack.  And the REL 212 had to be wound back.  Crossover at 100hz and volume taken back a little.  

That's great, but how did it make the avantgardes go lower?

[WorkinClassAudio]

1 minute ago, Ittaku said:

That's great, but how did it make the avantgardes go lower?

I think it's to do with having the mids closer in the middle changing the time alignment of the speakers.  It changed the way the air moves in the room.  Probably mids and bass overlapping to create reinforcement.  There is now air moving.  Somehow the sound grew gonads. 

[Grant Slack]

I can only think it would be because you have moved the Trio bass units about a foot outwards, which has changed their room modes enough to be noticeable.

 

cheers

Grant

[WorkinClassAudio]

2 hours ago, Grant Slack said:

I can only think it would be because you have moved the Trio bass units about a foot outwards, which has changed their room modes enough to be noticeable.

 

cheers

Grant

that's not the case.  I had the Trios wider than this.  I had these f***king Trios everywhere except up my khyber.  Somehow they also sound more dynamic with the revised setup.

 

I think it's to do with time alignment.  The drivers sound better integrated.

Edited December 18, 2019 by GroovyGuru

[Grant Slack]

 

 

Hello Peter, I'm not sure why you were so antsy in your reply to my post. I was only trying to help with a logical explanation for the change in bass that you reported.

 

And I was only basing my comment on your photos. Either your rug has shrunk, or you have moved both the Trio bass and the subs outwards. Which would certainly explain a big change in the bass.

 

Perhaps I'll butt out. I tend to think as these sharing threads as welcoming of the readers' thoughts, but I could be wrong.

 

Regards

Grant

[WorkinClassAudio]

31 minutes ago, Grant Slack said:

 

 

Hello Peter, I'm not sure why you were so antsy in your reply to my post. I was only trying to help with a logical explanation for the change in bass that you reported.

 

And I was only basing my comment on your photos. Either your rug has shrunk, or you have moved both the Trio bass and the subs outwards. Which would certainly explain a big change in the bass.

 

Perhaps I'll butt out. I tend to think as these sharing threads as welcoming of the readers' thoughts, but I could be wrong.

 

Regards

Grant

Sorry if I was testy.  I pretty much had a gutful of trying to get the Trios to sound the way I wanted.  I thought I may have made a mistake buying them.  I was even thinking of putting the MG 20.7 back on and removing it from sale.  

 

I had tried them in every position with the tweeters inside.  Same goes for tweeters on the outside.  On the outside, I had to push them further apart because there was too much midrange/bass making the sound closed in.  

 

With the tweeters on the outside, the tweeters are set further away from the listener.  I believe it is a time alignment issue.  Set tweeters on the inside if you want bright sound. 

[haygeebaby]

Hang in there. These horns take time to get setup right. My optimum setup for room/speaker/listening chair took about 2 weeks to get right. During this time I kept thinking I had made the wrong purchase.

I also moved from panels to horns. And would say advantgarde horn setup was advanced/more complex than other box and panel speakers I’ve had.

After trying many configurations the ultimate setup for my duo omegas was the original factory recommendations. Including the tilt, horn height adjustments. However it was better to run speaker cables directly to the mids instead of the tweeters. Bass crossover recommendations where better when increased slightly, but similar to factory recommendations.
Time alignment to said to be off in the tweeter, but after correct setup, as the designers intended, I realised that this  increases micro detail. 

I would recommend you stick to the factory recommendations as close as possible and fine tune from there.

just my two cents and I hope it helps.

But yeah - I know your pain with setting up these horns.

good luck
 

[haygeebaby]

I’ve just read through the trio manual and it is the same principle as the duos. 
For page 22 - speaker distancing - the Jim Smith method was excellent as his method takes into account room modes. I started with what the manual recommended then applied the Jim Smith Method.

For page 23 - that tilt is critical for seating height to horn height. When you can get close to what it shows the effect of the timing mismatch becomes evident. Try your best to get the bottom lip of the top horn to reach the back upper end of the tweeter case. This setup is identical to the duos.

i would move the tweeters back to oem position. 
a lot of guys don’t use the stock speaker cables to connect the drivers. I’m not sure if this is the same for the new trio.

 

[haygeebaby]

Sorry I am looking at the method for the non Classico version. That tilt won’t apply the same way for your trio. Let me see if I can find the correct method.

Edited December 20, 2019 by haygeebaby