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mwhouston

Single driver speakers, DIY or commercial

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26 minutes ago, MattyW said:

The FAST-10 are the previous top of the line drivers. While the Crystal-10 are no doubt better I suspect there's not much in it. The sell out pricing of the FAST-10 is hard to pass up 

 

https://www.lii-audio.com/index.php/product/full-range-speaker-10-inch-hi-end-99db-hifi-speaker-driver-for-tube-amplifier-xizi-audio-2pcs-fast-10/

That is great but still comfortably beyond my means right now. Unfortunately, now I’m aware that they have some pretty damn affordable smaller drivers in the fast 8 and the 5" FR I may have to treat myself to a pair of them at some point. Thanks a lot :D 

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5 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

That is great but still comfortably beyond my means right now. Unfortunately, now I’m aware that they have some pretty damn affordable smaller drivers in the fast 8 and the 5" FR I may have to treat myself to a pair of them at some point. Thanks a lot :D 

You won't regret the purpose for a moment.  In fact you'll be kicking yourself you didn't try them sooner. I never knew what I was missing out on until running these.

 

My dilemma now is that I just ordered a pair of Duelund silver bypass caps....  Do I use them to bypass the Miflex KFPM-1 in my DAC, or to bypass the 0.47uf Duelund JAM caps which are in turn bypassing the 1uf Cornell Dubilier 940c caps on my super tweeters in my DIY speakers?  Choices choices.... 

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What a shame that Oskar Heil died before he finished working on a full range AMT - air motion transformer and that no one has taken up this idea, especially since CAD would make this entirely possible today.

 

I listened to an ESS AMT 1 at the home of a member of my old audio forum World Audio Designs who sold me a pair of Great Heils and the ESS passive x/over. The mids and treble were very liquid and organic, not so sure about the bass. Even though there are many modern 'equivalents' none have the quality of the Heils.

 

 

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11 hours ago, MattyW said:

The FAST-10 are the previous top of the line drivers. While the Crystal-10 are no doubt better I suspect there's not much in it. The sell out pricing of the FAST-10 is hard to pass up 

 

https://www.lii-audio.com/index.php/product/full-range-speaker-10-inch-hi-end-99db-hifi-speaker-driver-for-tube-amplifier-xizi-audio-2pcs-fast-10/

Had a look at the specs for the fast 10. Very efficient. Expensive but could make a pair of good sounding speakers. I have a few speaker projects ahead for which I have the drivers and not prepared to buy more drivers especially expensive ones.  Also very impressed with the Mark Audios, though not as efficient, but more affordable. Would like to try their 5”. 

 

Thanks for the link. 

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8 hours ago, Southerly said:

What a shame that Oskar Heil died before he finished working on a full range AMT - air motion transformer and that no one has taken up this idea, especially since CAD would make this entirely possible today.

 

I listened to an ESS AMT 1 at the home of a member of my old audio forum World Audio Designs who sold me a pair of Great Heils and the ESS passive x/over. The mids and treble were very liquid and organic, not so sure about the bass. Even though there are many modern 'equivalents' none have the quality of the Heils.

 

 

I imagine those would have been quite spectacular. I hope to hear a pair of speakers with Heils installed one of these days  :)

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I really do not understand spending too much on wide range drivers.Especially wizzer coned ones.Their appeal lies in being valve amp friendly and offering excellent phase purity and many offer high sensitivity which also can bring sonic benefits.But they are compromised by their nature so will never be perfect.Or even quite close to perfect.They are something that should be enjoyed for their strengths and from what I have heard those strengths are just as apparent in some of the cheaper alternatives.Maybe more so.

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All speaker technology is compromised in some way @THOMO though for myself I've never heard anything better than these.

 

I extend the highs with ribbons and bass with bigger woofers. Due to running open back they'll never extend too low though I guess I could always add a sub.

 

Another strength of full range drivers is being able to create simple speakers with basic crossovers for first time speaker builders such as myself. Besides,  fullrange drivers seem to have a magic other drivers lack. It seems to disappear when used with complicated crossovers so I believe it's due to having nothing between the amp and the driver but speaker wire. I've nothing to back this up mind you 

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1 hour ago, MattyW said:

All speaker technology is compromised in some way @THOMO though for myself I've never heard anything better than these.

 

I extend the highs with ribbons and bass with bigger woofers. Due to running open back they'll never extend too low though I guess I could always add a sub.

 

Another strength of full range drivers is being able to create simple speakers with basic crossovers for first time speaker builders such as myself. Besides,  fullrange drivers seem to have a magic other drivers lack. It seems to disappear when used with complicated crossovers so I believe it's due to having nothing between the amp and the driver but speaker wire. I've nothing to back this up mind you 

Every piece of gear in hifi is a compromise. Find the comprise that you like and suits your budget and enjoy it. 

Edited by mwhouston

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29 minutes ago, mwhouston said:

Every piece of gear in hifi is a compromise. Find the comprise that you like and suits your budget and enjoy it. 

More precisely and simply put than my response . I meant the same thing,  though with justification for my purchase also. ;)

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6 minutes ago, MattyW said:

More precisely and simply put than my response . I meant the same thing,  though with justification for my purchase also. ;)

The alternate is gear churning, chasing the next compromise and never realising that all is a compromise and wondering why you are never happy.  

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Just now, mwhouston said:

The alternate is gear churning, chasing the next compromise and never realising that all is a compromise and wondering why you are never happy.  

Yeah, been doing that for years.

 

I believe this is end game for me being ahead of everything else I've ever used in every performance category. Seems to be excellent with every type of music though it really shines with live performances,  jazz, blues and orchestral. :)

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1 hour ago, MattyW said:

so I believe it's due to having nothing between the amp and the driver

Nope, the real reason is simply avoiding the issues inherent in multi-driver speakers .... which if often made worse, by a poor speaker design.

 

Having the driver directly wired the amplifier is often cited as a reason for "awesome sound" (in single driver speakers and active multi-way speakers).   It's almost completely bullshit.

 

 

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43 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Having the driver directly wired the amplifier is often cited as a reason for "awesome sound" (in single driver speakers and active multi-way speakers).   It's almost completely bullshit.

A multi-way can be directly driven by amplifiers if you have the XO before the amps.

 

A better clue to why a good full-rang ehas the “magic” is the single source, pysically & aurally, with superb phase response (adding a whizzer can negate that). No XOs. A coax has the potential to also be such, but that probably requires a DSP XO and a very good dispersion match at the XO.

 

The other is the generally benign impedance curve, one of the reasons a good FR has a greater potential to match with your highe routput impedance amps (such as typical SET/SEP amps).

 

dave

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1 minute ago, planet10 said:

A multi-way can be directly driven by amplifiers if you have the XO before the amps.

Yep.    I put that in the "active" bucket, at least for this discussion.

1 minute ago, planet10 said:

A better clue to why a good full-rang ehas the “magic” is the single source, pysically & aurally, with superb phase response (adding a whizzer can negate that). No XOs. A coax has the potential to also be such, but that probably requires a DSP XO and a very good dispersion match at the XO.

 

The other is the generally benign impedance curve, one of the reasons a good FR has a greater potential to match with your highe routput impedance amps (such as typical SET/SEP amps).

All of these issues can be addressed in a well designed passive XO.

 

The only thing which can't (the true difference) is, as you kinda touch on ..... is the physical separation of sound sources.

 

Doing it with a coax driver, doesn't necessarily need DSP .... it just needs a well designed XO circuit (using whatever method).

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13 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

All of these issues can be addressed in a well designed passive XO.

 

The only thing which can't (the true difference) is, as you kinda touch on ..... is the physical separation of sound sources.

A passive XO would have to be 1st order and there be little sign of it in the impedance curve. A coax is likely to have to be time aligned (and not just around the XO), not something easy to do.

 

The issue with separation pretty much goes away once centre-centre distance between the drivers being XOed at the XO frequency is less than a quarter wavelength. Not something you can do with a typical dome + cone. It can be taken advantage of in a well designed WAW thou to mostly cure the evils of the XO.

 

This ia why it is possible to successfully mate a woofer to a FR, but much, much harder to get a superTweeter to work right.

 

XO @ 250 Hz:

 

A12pw-MTM-comp.jpg[/img]

 

dave

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1 minute ago, planet10 said:

A passive XO would have to be 1st order and there be little sign of it in the impedance curve. A coax is likely to have to be time aligned (and not just around the XO), not something easy to do.

It possible to "time align" drivers + crossover along way either side of the XO  (eg. 100 to 10,000 in a two way) .....  but "easy", no (or at least subjective).

 

It doesn't need to be 1st order.    The phase rotation from a (for example) 4th order crossover, is not audible ..... as long as the crossover is generally well designed, and that there are no major wiggles, ie. the phase rotation is smooth

 

I wish it was not so.... as then we could add a simple active circuit to correct said phase rotation (and make it linear phase) for a big jump in sound quality.    I still do it, yes... but it's borderline inaudible.

 

1 minute ago, planet10 said:

The issue with separation pretty much goes away once centre-centre distance between the drivers being XOed at the XO frequency is less than a quarter wavelength.

Yes.

 

There is something to be said for a WAW/Fast.   :) 

.... but I think the real issue boils down to it avoid the opportunity to get the 2-way wrong (cone/dome, or whatever) .... as opposed to a 2-way never being able to be good enough.

 

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