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mwhouston

Single driver speakers, DIY or commercial

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1 minute ago, planet10 said:

A multi-way can be directly driven by amplifiers if you have the XO before the amps.

Yep.    I put that in the "active" bucket, at least for this discussion.

1 minute ago, planet10 said:

A better clue to why a good full-rang ehas the “magic” is the single source, pysically & aurally, with superb phase response (adding a whizzer can negate that). No XOs. A coax has the potential to also be such, but that probably requires a DSP XO and a very good dispersion match at the XO.

 

The other is the generally benign impedance curve, one of the reasons a good FR has a greater potential to match with your highe routput impedance amps (such as typical SET/SEP amps).

All of these issues can be addressed in a well designed passive XO.

 

The only thing which can't (the true difference) is, as you kinda touch on ..... is the physical separation of sound sources.

 

Doing it with a coax driver, doesn't necessarily need DSP .... it just needs a well designed XO circuit (using whatever method).

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13 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

All of these issues can be addressed in a well designed passive XO.

 

The only thing which can't (the true difference) is, as you kinda touch on ..... is the physical separation of sound sources.

A passive XO would have to be 1st order and there be little sign of it in the impedance curve. A coax is likely to have to be time aligned (and not just around the XO), not something easy to do.

 

The issue with separation pretty much goes away once centre-centre distance between the drivers being XOed at the XO frequency is less than a quarter wavelength. Not something you can do with a typical dome + cone. It can be taken advantage of in a well designed WAW thou to mostly cure the evils of the XO.

 

This ia why it is possible to successfully mate a woofer to a FR, but much, much harder to get a superTweeter to work right.

 

XO @ 250 Hz:

 

A12pw-MTM-comp.jpg[/img]

 

dave

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1 minute ago, planet10 said:

A passive XO would have to be 1st order and there be little sign of it in the impedance curve. A coax is likely to have to be time aligned (and not just around the XO), not something easy to do.

It possible to "time align" drivers + crossover along way either side of the XO  (eg. 100 to 10,000 in a two way) .....  but "easy", no (or at least subjective).

 

It doesn't need to be 1st order.    The phase rotation from a (for example) 4th order crossover, is not audible ..... as long as the crossover is generally well designed, and that there are no major wiggles, ie. the phase rotation is smooth

 

I wish it was not so.... as then we could add a simple active circuit to correct said phase rotation (and make it linear phase) for a big jump in sound quality.    I still do it, yes... but it's borderline inaudible.

 

1 minute ago, planet10 said:

The issue with separation pretty much goes away once centre-centre distance between the drivers being XOed at the XO frequency is less than a quarter wavelength.

Yes.

 

There is something to be said for a WAW/Fast.   :) 

.... but I think the real issue boils down to it avoid the opportunity to get the 2-way wrong (cone/dome, or whatever) .... as opposed to a 2-way never being able to be good enough.

 

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16 hours ago, MattyW said:

You won't regret the purpose for a moment.  In fact you'll be kicking yourself you didn't try them sooner. I never knew what I was missing out on until running these.

 

My dilemma now is that I just ordered a pair of Duelund silver bypass caps....  Do I use them to bypass the Miflex KFPM-1 in my DAC, or to bypass the 0.47uf Duelund JAM caps which are in turn bypassing the 1uf Cornell Dubilier 940c caps on my super tweeters in my DIY speakers?  Choices choices.... 

Remove the Jam by-pass and use the Duelund Silver, I wouldn't use three different caps together.

 

Edit: that's if you use them in the speakers.

Edited by Muon N'

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13 minutes ago, Muon N' said:

Remove the Jam by-pass and use the Duelund Silver, I wouldn't use three different caps together.

 

Edit: that's if you use them in the speakers.

 

Nah, going to use to bypass the Miflex KFPM-1 output caps in my Muji Studio DAC II. ;)

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29 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

It doesn't need to be 1st order.    The phase rotation from a (for example) 4th order crossover, is not audible ..... as long as the crossover is generally well designed, and that there are no major wiggles, ie. the phase rotation is smooth

That only fixes phase at the XO you still have the issue of the harmonics falling outside of the envelope.

 

Plus with a physical separation greater than a quarter wavelength you run into issues related to where in space you are trying to get things right.

 

dave

Edited by planet10

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55 minutes ago, planet10 said:

That only fixes phase at the XO you still have the issue of the harmonics falling outside of the envelope.

Harmonics?   That's an amplitude (and non-linear distortion) thing, not a phase thing .... so I'm a bit confused.

55 minutes ago, planet10 said:

Plus with a physical separation greater than a quarter wavelength you run into issues related to where in space you are trying to get things right.

Yes, you do... which is the whole point I'm trying to make.

 

When people build multi-speaker crossovers, where the drivers do have significant separation ..... they often bugger it up (IMVHO).

 

So yes, the physical separation issue is a advantage of single driver (or "WAW") speakers ..... but the advantage can be exaggerated depending on what you compare to.

 

Single driver speakers also have natural limitations on how constant their directivity can be, so multi-driver speakers are not without their inherent advantages too, if you do it right (which as mentioned, is complex).

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At the end of day when you have everything right (so you think) and all measures just great and it sound great to you, someone else comes along and does not like the sound.

It is and always will be personal taste that rules.

One reason I do not pay much attention to reviews or personal opinions.

The only thing that counts for me is my own satisfaction.

I love my ZUs

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2 hours ago, Ihearmusic said:

At the end of day when you have everything right (so you think) and all measures just great and it sound great to you, someone else comes along and does not like the sound.

It is and always will be personal taste that rules.

One reason I do not pay much attention to reviews or personal opinions.

The only thing that counts for me is my own satisfaction.

I love my ZUs

Very well reviewed those I believe  :)

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2 minutes ago, Gryffles said:

A while ago now, but, Bastanis Wildhorns

 

IMG_1171.thumb.JPG.25328beb690146a21c8ea5f73d254b60.JPG

 

 

Looks great. Can you say a bit about them? I’ve never seen them before

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14 minutes ago, RankStranger said:

Looks great. Can you say a bit about them? I’ve never seen them before

Agree, they did look great! 12" driver, 100dB and a fantastic tweeter. Very simple box as well.

 

Very fussy about what drives them though and can tear your ears off if not right. I had the larger Matterhorns, 15" driver, on loan for a while too and they are better.

 

They seem to be very expensive now,

 

https://www.bastanis.com/index.php

Edited by Gryffles

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1 hour ago, Gryffles said:

A while ago now, but, Bastanis Wildhorns

 

IMG_1171.thumb.JPG.25328beb690146a21c8ea5f73d254b60.JPG

 

 

Not really single driver but close. Not really. 

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The thread is “Single Driver”. One slipped through but let’s stay on track. Monorail audio that is. 

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29 minutes ago, mwhouston said:

The thread is “Single Driver”. One slipped through but let’s stay on track. Monorail audio that is. 

Fair enough  - although 4 have slipped through 😂

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20 hours ago, MattyW said:

I imagine those would have been quite spectacular. I hope to hear a pair of speakers with Heils installed one of these days  :)

Thing is the Heils don't like to be enclosed, won't say more as this is a single transducer thread.

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Not many commercial postings. I wonder if there is small demand for commercial single driver speakers. Also do multi-driver speakers look more impressive and are easier to sell. As you know I’m all for DIY so it makes me happy. 

 

Zu is the only single driver commercial speaker which comes to mind. Anyone list some others and a link would be nice. 

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Zu aren’t really single driver speakers. I haven’t heard any so can only speculate based on my experiemnets with similar.

 

dave

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17 minutes ago, mwhouston said:

Not many commercial postings. I wonder if there is small demand for commercial single driver speakers. Also do multi-driver speakers look more impressive and are easier to sell. As you know I’m all for DIY so it makes me happy. 

 

Zu is the only single driver commercial speaker which comes to mind. Anyone list some others and a link would be nice. 

There's not many no, though of those which are available a number are rather expensive.

 

I find it odd that mostly the commercial offerings are just a single driver rather than a full range with a super tweeter and bass driver as is fairly common with DIY speakers.

Edited by MattyW

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28 minutes ago, mwhouston said:

Not many commercial postings. I wonder if there is small demand for commercial single driver speakers. Also do multi-driver speakers look more impressive and are easier to sell. As you know I’m all for DIY so it makes me happy. 

 

Zu is the only single driver commercial speaker which comes to mind. Anyone list some others and a link would be nice. 

IMO more to do with they add a tweeter to make them acceptable to the market place and sound better

Edited by Gryffles

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For some reason I associate big full rangers with Tannoy.....

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3 hours ago, planet10 said:

Zu aren’t really single driver speakers. I haven’t heard any so can only speculate based on my experiemnets with similar.

 

dave

I know some models have a tweeter. The ones I’ve seen are single driver.

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