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mwhouston

Single driver speakers, DIY or commercial

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Dave, the horn's are based on Brociner compact corner horn's (rear section) the front part of the horn is what i have added, my take on front loading.

As for the sound for such a small speaker what comes out is hard to get my head around (Stunned actually) just So much detail, and yes they do not go down very low but still am surprised the amount they do produce, with a sub helper they would be pretty hard to beat.

The Plans i have scaled down (Broncier) and added the front horn section strait on to a piece of MDF board as a template. I don't have dimensions so to speak, I would be happy to transfer a copy of the plans onto a piece of paper and send you a copy if you like.

I built these small horn's as a test build, construction verification to nut out how to construct the compound curves and used scrap ply and second hand timber which i had before buying the material to build the large set. There is around 25 to 30 hours of time to build each box. I have at this time only the one horn built but will take photos of the details as i build the other horn and post them.

Steve.

(PS) How are you getting on health wise Dave.

 

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21 minutes ago, kranky said:

(PS) How are you getting on health wise Dave.

I have in general been on an upward trend, but pushed too hrd and strained something earlier this month, so having to take it easy for a bit.

 

Thanx for asking.

 

No need for exact dimensions… if i was to do something like this, i’d u sketch the general idea, snd then get Scott (Woden) to look at the detail with his modelers (and experience)

 

dave

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1 hour ago, kranky said:

...Brociner compact corner horn...

http://www.itishifi.com/2010/12/brociner-corner-horn-model-4c.html

 

This horn is basically the same as the Jensen Compact Horn. I knew i had seen this “shape” before, took me a while, but i did a 3D visualization:

 

JensenCompactHorn3D.gif

 

The big Woden Horns use the same topology (with an added twist to fire the horn out the rear) and adds the trick from Olson (and popularized by the Nagaoka designs) of using a folded-stepped horn where the corners act as low pass filter keeping the higher frequency stuff from getting to the horn mouth. This one Maeshowe for your driver.

 

maeshowe-c-3D.gif

 

You have added a front horn, but given the flare and the very large throat might act more as a waveguide, as you go down into the lower midrange — i’d expect most useful to keep things off the walls with the boxes pushed into the corner.

 

dave

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Dave yes that is the horn in question, i found a version at the Lansing forum with the dimensions on it.

I think Brociner worked for Jensen and Voight but just what i have read.

Steve.

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Anyone know of a 2-way speaker with the "highs" crossed over to a woofer at a low frequency, say 500hz? Maybe using a large AMT/ribbon? This seems like it'd have most of the benefits of a single-driver speaker.

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No such thing as ultimate. This box has its compromises too.

 

1/ a line array suffers from high frequency combing, causing the top to have to be hot to compensate Frequency wise, but that sytill leaves the time arrival smear

2/ it is open baffle up top with a monopole sub. That causes issues with blending the 2 drivers, and one has to deal with the dipole response in room.

 

Those compromises are fine for some, not for others,

 

I prefer a WAW with a sorce closer to a point source for no time smear. Here is the one i am listeniny to at the moment. About $1,400 USD worth of parts (including passive XO) plus a substantial box.

 

A12pw-MTM-comp.jpg

 

2 6.5” in an ML-TL and a 4” FR in a midTL. Response something like 25-20k. XO at 250 Hz (determined by where bafflestep occurs and keeps the XO below the 1/4 wavelength of the centre-centre driver disytance, eliminating many of the evils of an XO. Currently used with a SIT-3, but (as long as you don’t need to crank it), works fine with an ACA, so don’t need a whole lot of power. 

 

dave

Edited by planet10

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Anyone tried this point source driver Lii Audio Crystal 10? Looks to be a nicely done modern take of the classic Coral Beta 10 which I’ve tried before and quite liked. The Crystal 10 sells for $1K USD/pair and I am a bit tempted to get the Fast 10 model to try out @$450, they are essentially the same driver with the Crystal being an updated version.

 

https://www.lii-audio.com/index.php/product/new-top-hifi-audio-speaker-driver-10-full-range-crystal-cone-high-end-crystal-10-in-pair/


On DiyAudio.com it is said that the Lii Audio drivers are on par if not better than Lowther, Fostex and even the Voxativs, which is saying something. The Lowther ime are very transparent, but their fragility over time is not good. Whereas, the Lii Audio drivers have treated cloth roll surrounds that will supposedly last 20 yrs+.

 

I have been listening again to my Fostex 206FE drivers in 25L BR boxes with the Eton 11-581 bass modules and the extreme image lock and low level detail retrieval of point source drivers is quite magical, imho.

 

Steve.


image.jpeg.9041a4298dee9337a4ce967d12bdc246.jpeg

 

 

 

Edited by Steve M

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2 hours ago, Steve M said:

Anyone tried this point source driver Lii Audio Crystal 10? Looks to be a nicely done modern take of the classic Coral Beta 10 which I’ve tried before and quite liked. The Crystal 10 sells for $1K USD/pair and I am a bit tempted to get the Fast 10 model to try out @$450, they are essentially the same driver with the Crystal being an updated version.

 

https://www.lii-audio.com/index.php/product/new-top-hifi-audio-speaker-driver-10-full-range-crystal-cone-high-end-crystal-10-in-pair/


On DiyAudio.com it is said that the Lii Audio drivers are on par if not better than Lowther, Fostex and even the Voxativs, which is saying something. The Lowther ime are very transparent, but their fragility over time is not good. Whereas, the Lii Audio drivers have treated cloth roll surrounds that will supposedly last 20 yrs+.

 

I have been listening again to my Fostex 206FE drivers in 25L BR boxes with the Eton 11-581 bass modules and the extreme image lock and low level detail retrieval of point source drivers is quite magical, imho.

 

Steve.


image.jpeg.9041a4298dee9337a4ce967d12bdc246.jpeg

 

 

 

Looks like a Lowther copy for sure. 

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I think the Coral clone is more accurat ethan Lowther. It only looks like a lowther in terms of a whizzer cone & phase plug.

 

There is a 15” Lil Audio thread on diyAudio, and a 10” one on Audio Circle. 

 

I always take a FR this kind of size with many grains of salt without actually having heard it.

 

dave

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16 hours ago, afa said:

Like this?

https://www.perrymarshall.com/articles/ultimate2way/

 

usually "highs" crossover to a tweeter/high range driver

Rather extreme example but yes, that's basically what I was thinking. Except that the highrange driver would be more reasonably sized and have a higher crossover point, making it much smaller and more practical.

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I was watching the the Decware UTube where the 5” single driver with back loaded horn is being demonstrated. Mr. Decware kept talking about the speed of the driver. Put up your hand if you have seriously contemplated the speed of the driver you are about to use in a single driver speaker (SDS). 
 

Sandra Bullocks knew all about speed but probably couldn’t apply it to speakers. After building a speaker with a (about) a 6” full range Fostex driver and then three with the 8” Fostex I realised the bass was much better with the bigger driver, horns or reflex. But what of speed and what was I loosing to gain some extra bass.

 

Im extremely impressed with the 8” Mark Audio driver in its reflex pencil box. I think a good balance of bass and everything else. Bass is very good. But what of speed.

 

 Mark Audio make 5” drivers, maybe it is what Decware used (not sure, think not) in their back loaded horn, the baby of thier range. Maybe speed is what brings the transparency, naturalism and the “I’m there” feeling from speakers. Decware claim good bass no stubbie required. Maybe I have to try one some time in the future. Until then it’s Altec 511B horns with Italian compression drivers and 12” woofer. At least the horns are quick. 

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7 hours ago, mwhouston said:

… the 5” single driver with back loaded horn...

Alpair A10p (now — at least the 3rd driver he has used in the DNA horn — one of my very favorite MA drivers. We built the DNA horn and it is less than stellar (kinda coloured), but the client who ended up with them (for free), is happy with them.

 

Mar-Ken10pTT.jpg

 

After building a speaker with a (about) a 6” full range Fostex driver and then three with the 8” Fostex I realised the bass was much better with the bigger driver, horns or reflex. But what of speed and what was I loosing to gain some extra bass.

 

FExx6 series drivers… all really need to be in a biggish horn, and driver with a high output impedance amp. These are all about the efficiency.

 

I totally agree with the losses involved higher up when one pushes the driver size in an attempt to get more bass.

 

Im extremely impressed with the 8” Mark Audio driver in its reflex pencil box. I think a good balance of bass and everything else. Bass is very good. But what of speed.

 

As i have remarked before your Mark Audio A12p are 6.5” drivers. The largest MA makes ATM.

 

Speed is a term often misused in audio terms. It is, i believe, an attempt to decribe how quickly a driver can respond (and stop). It is directly related to the frequency being reproduced.

 

Mark Audio make 5” drivers

 

Alpair 10s. We ar enow in the 3rd generation of metal cones and the 1st gen paper cone is what Steve uses in his horn.

 

Maybe speed is what brings the transparency, naturalism and the “I’m there” feeling from speakers. Decware claim good bass no stubbie required… At least the horns are quick. [/quote]

 

Horns provide gain at the frequencies they operate at, so the driver has to travel less distance to reproduce the same volume levels, hence less movement needed.

 

Here, comments on a build of SIlbury — probably th epremiere horn for the Alpair 10/10.2/10.3/p. Alpair 11ms, Pluvia 11.

 

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/347611-silbury-build.html

 

 

dave

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“As i have remarked before your Mark Audio A12p are 6.5” drivers. The largest MA makes ATM”.

 

Yes you have remarked before that the drivers aren’t 8”.  Admittedly the cone area is a lot smaller but that is the same with all drivers. Regardless a very impressive driver.

 

The Utube by Steve is good. I like the way it’s shot from the ceiling looking down. You get to see all. The fact they have setup some high performance mics to catch the sound is good also. I did the same when I Utubed my 15” Beymas. I put studio mics a meter back from the boxes, recorded the sound in. 24/96 then shot the movie on the phone and dubbed the high quality recording on the movie. A few commented the movie sucks but the sound was good. 


 

 

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32 minutes ago, mwhouston said:

A few commented the movie sucks but the sound was good. 

Just like The Phantom Menace :) 

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On 10/11/2019 at 4:40 AM, Southerly said:

What a shame that Oskar Heil died before he finished working on a full range AMT - air motion transformer and that no one has taken up this idea, especially since CAD would make this entirely possible today.

 

I listened to an ESS AMT 1 at the home of a member of my old audio forum World Audio Designs who sold me a pair of Great Heils and the ESS passive x/over. The mids and treble were very liquid and organic, not so sure about the bass. Even though there are many modern 'equivalents' none have the quality of the Heils.

 

 

Here's a full range AMT that is also a refinement on Oskar Heil's design: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AtiTvhqfxI&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

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2 hours ago, planet10 said:

But only in a headphone.

 

dave

Admittedly, but for now this is the only way to get any idea of what a full range AMT speaker might sound like. Apparently Klaus Heinz knew and communicated with Dr Heil, but they had a falling out over conflicting ideas for improving the device. Heinz has continued to improve it over the years, first with Adam monitors and now with his own company: https://www.hedd.audio/en/

 

It is also interesting that two technologies originally envisaged as HF drivers have almost simultaneously emerged as full range transducers in headphones, the other being Raal—the 'Requisite'.

 

Edited by minim

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