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mwhouston

Single driver speakers, DIY or commercial

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Yes, every design could be hit or miss, but classic designed Voigts like this one ar emaybe 1 in 10 a success, modeled ones have more like a 9 out of 10 chance or better. Unless mass loaded a Voigt typically has a lot of low frequency ripple. And without modeling you have no real idea of the volume needed to agequitly load the driver.

 

Matching a speaker to amplification, at least in the LF, is largely determined by getting an output impedance of the amplifier to match the speaker/box. In most real worl cases this means low output impedances because of crossovers causing a wild impedance. Single driver speakers with their typically benign impedance curves often are a much better match with higher output impedance amplifiers — some like the FE1xx6 series really demand it.

 

In the end the only thing that matters is YOUR enjoyment of the music, the connection it allows to the emotion of the music. If you are heepy you are happy.

 

[quotr]The other link I forwarded was just for the guys considering a design for the Visaton Driver.[/quote]

 

The linked BR box is alctually going to be an ML-TL and is likely not well tuned. It also has the braces running in the least effective orientation (and given it is chipboard — not adequately braced). We can do a lot better.

 

dave

 

PS: Google is pretty good at tranlating German.

Edited by planet10

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Hi All,

 

Loving this thread, so here is my current story.

 

My full range speaker journey began about August 2017 when I started studying and reading threads on DYIAudio.com.  After thinking through a number of possibilities, including tall line arrays, I elected to make a pair of Frugel-Horn Mk3’s, a small form transmission line loudspeaker system that most typically uses a 4” full range driver.  I knew that the they would fit into the little nib walls that separate the living room from the family room.

 

The absence of crossovers, and therefore avoiding the attendant issues they bring, was an acceptable compromise over the lack of ultimate power handling and the level of cone breakup that a small 4” cone inevitably brings to the audio table.  To power the boxes I organised with Dave, (after several emails back and forth with pestering queries!), from Planet 10 in Canada to freight me a pair of matched, Enabled Marks Audio Alpair 7Pen 4” drivers. He also supplied me with helpful advice as well so it is especially welcome to see him contributing to Stereonet and this thread.

 

I downloaded the plans from Dave’s website for the 18mm material versions and then sent the info to my friend John at Aranmar Acoustics and asked him to supply me with the raw bits so I could put them together and finish them properly. He sourced some Finnish sourced Russian low void ply for the cut. I say raw, but John CNC’d the parts required and the sanded them and I picked them up taped together.

 

This was April 2018 and I put them together over the next few weeks experimenting with loading the front chamber and lagging the internal sides and also hand rasping a chamfer away from the edge of the back face of the baffle board to let the throat “breathe”. I used them for a few months in their raw state until I reluctantly took them apart, sanded them properly and put a 2mm chamfer on all edges. My son then sprayed them satin white plus top coat lacquer (about 15 coats all up, I lost count) and I put them back together.

 

I initially tried some Cat cable (5, 6 & 7) as speaker cable, but although I liked some aspects of the sound the 10 metre lengths would appear to be a little lossy and thin sounding so I settled for some 20AWG twin insulated Belden speaker cable, although I will experiment further down the track.

 

The sound? Well they got better every few months until now about a year and a half in I think they have settled down and been run in.  I would estimate, in the particular part of the lounge they are in and where I listen from , I would not get anything useable under around 60 to 70hz, but I never expected to.  One of the remarkable aspects of these speakers, apart from the sound stage and stereo imaging, is that they sound great at low levels, in fact I have taken to listening to them at lower levels than I have in the past with other speakers as they exhibit a level of detail and blend throughout a large part of the frequency spectrum that I find particularly  involving.  Many speakers, in my experience, require you to move a reasonable amount of air to become involving.

 

The next step is to take them apart again to give them a final cut and polish, but I am not sure when I want to stop listening long enough to do that even if it is only a couple of hours work!

 

All in all I am very happy with the build and subsequent sound quality and find it is always more satisfying when your enjoyment of your hobby is not just governed by your hip pocket. Given that in the past I have often owned big, multi driver speakers (Polks, Magneplanars, Klipsch etc…) I have rearranged my thinking and find if I do want to play music more loudly I will choose use my headphones. However I do play them at a surprising good volume from time to time.

To be continued….

 

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Frugel-Horn Mk3’s, a small form transmission line loudspeaker

 

A rear mouth tapped horn. It has a choke (thanx Mr Klipsch). The rear moth loaded by a wall/floor gives a virtual 4x increase in the moth size. Corner load gives 8x. The rear curved mouth developed by Ron Clarke makes the rectangualr mouth acoustically look a lot more like an ideal circualr mouth.

 

Damping helps with tuning making it suitable for many different drivers and kill some ripple. There are also a larger and smaller one. And an XXL relative is in beta.

 

dave

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1 minute ago, planet10 said:

 

 

 

A rear mouth tapped horn. It has a choke (thanx Mr Klipsch). The rear moth loaded by a wall/floor gives a virtual 4x increase in the moth size. Corner load gives 8x. The rear curved mouth developed by Ron Clarke makes the rectangualr mouth acoustically look a lot more like an ideal circualr mouth.

 

Damping helps with tuning making it suitable for many different drivers and kill some ripple. There are also a larger and smaller one. And an XXL relative is in beta.

 

dave

Thanks Dave, you are the expert on this model.  Actually I did know that it was a horn, mainly becuase you have told me so previously!

 

Cheers

 

Mark

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32 minutes ago, Linolad said:

Hi All,

 

Loving this thread, so here is my current story.

 

My full range speaker journey began about August 2017 when I started studying and reading threads on DYIAudio.com.  After thinking through a number of possibilities, including tall line arrays, I elected to make a pair of Frugel-Horn Mk3’s, a small form transmission line loudspeaker system that most typically uses a 4” full range driver.  I knew that the they would fit into the little nib walls that separate the living room from the family room.

 

The absence of crossovers, and therefore avoiding the attendant issues they bring, was an acceptable compromise over the lack of ultimate power handling and the level of cone breakup that a small 4” cone inevitably brings to the audio table.  To power the boxes I organised with Dave, (after several emails back and forth with pestering queries!), from Planet 10 in Canada to freight me a pair of matched, Enabled Marks Audio Alpair 7Pen 4” drivers. He also supplied me with helpful advice as well so it is especially welcome to see him contributing to Stereonet and this thread.

 

I downloaded the plans from Dave’s website for the 18mm material versions and then sent the info to my friend John at Aranmar Acoustics and asked him to supply me with the raw bits so I could put them together and finish them properly. He sourced some Finnish sourced Russian low void ply for the cut. I say raw, but John CNC’d the parts required and the sanded them and I picked them up taped together.

 

This was April 2018 and I put them together over the next few weeks experimenting with loading the front chamber and lagging the internal sides and also hand rasping a chamfer away from the edge of the back face of the baffle board to let the throat “breathe”. I used them for a few months in their raw state until I reluctantly took them apart, sanded them properly and put a 2mm chamfer on all edges. My son then sprayed them satin white plus top coat lacquer (about 15 coats all up, I lost count) and I put them back together.

 

I initially tried some Cat cable (5, 6 & 7) as speaker cable, but although I liked some aspects of the sound the 10 metre lengths would appear to be a little lossy and thin sounding so I settled for some 20AWG twin insulated Belden speaker cable, although I will experiment further down the track.

 

The sound? Well they got better every few months until now about a year and a half in I think they have settled down and been run in.  I would estimate, in the particular part of the lounge they are in and where I listen from , I would not get anything useable under around 60 to 70hz, but I never expected to.  One of the remarkable aspects of these speakers, apart from the sound stage and stereo imaging, is that they sound great at low levels, in fact I have taken to listening to them at lower levels than I have in the past with other speakers as they exhibit a level of detail and blend throughout a large part of the frequency spectrum that I find particularly  involving.  Many speakers, in my experience, require you to move a reasonable amount of air to become involving.

 

The next step is to take them apart again to give them a final cut and polish, but I am not sure when I want to stop listening long enough to do that even if it is only a couple of hours work!

 

All in all I am very happy with the build and subsequent sound quality and find it is always more satisfying when your enjoyment of your hobby is not just governed by your hip pocket. Given that in the past I have often owned big, multi driver speakers (Polks, Magneplanars, Klipsch etc…) I have rearranged my thinking and find if I do want to play music more loudly I will choose use my headphones. However I do play them at a surprising good volume from time to time.

To be continued….

 

IMG_2738.jpg

IMG_2765.jpg

IMG_2844.jpg

IMG_2709.jpg

IMG_2759.jpg

IMG_2935.jpg

IMG_2939.jpg

IMG_2942.jpg

IMG_3031.jpg

IMG_3028.jpg

Great story and outstanding results. Had a big long chat with John just last week. We have known each other for nearly forty years. 

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3 minutes ago, mwhouston said:

Great story and outstanding results. Had a big long chat with John just last week. We have known each other for nearly forty years. 

Cheers mwhouston,

 

I think I first met John in the middle to late 80's becuase we did some commercial work together, great bloke!

 

 

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Watched a YouTube vid. last night from PS Audio about single driver speakers. He spoke of the Doppler effect on treble. That is as the cone is going forward or back and of course producing treble at the same time the treble frequency is changed. It will be higher pitch or lower pitch. 

 

Mr PS said he didn’t like that and a number of others didn’t either. The solution is a tweeter and a woofer or woofer/mid. Well I’m not convinced it’s so bad but maybe he is Mr Golden Ears. It DOES exist and DOES happen. Weather you get it or hear it and it effects you or not is another matter.

 

On the side of the single driver he did say every Xover is the big problem with multi driver speakers (even two driver) and the problem can only be and will always be a compromise. It can never be fixed or perfect. Mr PS said they think they get it right as it can be but it will never be perfect.

 

So one for single driver speakers. No Xover. 

 

He also pointed out that coherency is the big draw card for single driver speakers but also said coaxial speakers can give you that (I’m extending the point here) and take away the Doppler effect but (yes you guessed it) adds the compromising Xover. 
 

I still think single driver speakers have there place in our music world. Like all hifi gear (absolutely with no exceptions) they are compromise. 

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7 hours ago, mwhouston said:

Watched a YouTube vid. last night from PS Audio about single driver speakers. He spoke of the Doppler effect on treble. That is as the cone is going forward or back and of course producing treble at the same time the treble frequency is changed. It will be higher pitch or lower pitch. 

While this is real, and has been discussed a lot, the advanced hearing journals/texts i have read tend to dismiss it. Like many things audio, a specific compromise may or may not be audible (or an issue) be important. FR drivers bring a certain set of assets to the choice a designer has to make when deciding what compromises must be made in the loudspeaker. 

 

If you worry about this, then adding  helper woofers (ie build a WAW) to a FR eliminates most of this since the FR no longer has to do bass, where higher excursions occur. A tweeter helps little and typically brings 2 big problems — the inevitable larger than quarter wavelength driver to driver distance (c-c), and it puts an XO (usually > 1st order) right where the ear is most sensitive exacerbating the evils caused by that XO. A coax can, technically, solve most of those issues, but really needs   a digital XO with time delay and time coherent XO points/

 

As with most everything, YOU have to listen and decide.

 

No XO, only a single driver also brings a simplier, often cheaper, build for the same sort of emotional return when listening to the music.

 

dave

Edited by planet10

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10 hours ago, mwhouston said:

Watched a YouTube vid. last night from PS Audio about single driver speakers. He spoke of the Doppler effect on treble. That is as the cone is going forward or back and of course producing treble at the same time the treble frequency is changed. It will be higher pitch or lower pitch. 

Being a musician, I always relate it to musical pitch.   I am also very sensitive to musical pitch.  I must admit to not hearing any problems.

 

2 hours ago, planet10 said:

If you worry about this, then adding  helper woofers (ie build a WAW) to a FR eliminates most of this since the FR no longer has to do bass, where higher excursions occur.

Doppler effect is worse when an object is moving fast, not when it is moving the most distance.  This means the bass excursions will effect the frequency of the high end less than mid and treble excuresions will affect it.

 

10 hours ago, mwhouston said:

He also pointed out that coherency is the big draw card for single driver speakers but also said coaxial speakers can give you that (I’m extending the point here) and take away the Doppler effect but (yes you guessed it) adds the compromising Xover. 

Exactly.  I always regard coaxial speakers as multi-way speakers, just with everything squeezed in together. Different compromises.

 

Edited by aussievintage

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I guess genuine single driver speakers are a bit like SET amps. They both  have their draw backs but their overall benefits out way all other issues. By benefits I’m talking overall sound, simplicity, coherency etc. Weigh that against (any) Doppler effect, lack of deep bass and high treble and possible power handling. 
 

As always it’s a compromise but still worth the effort of a good listen. In the end it’s all about the music and if it sounds good to you, it is good. 

Edited by mwhouston

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20 minutes ago, mwhouston said:

I guess genuine single driver speakers are a bit like SET amps. They both  have their draw backs 

True about any piece of audio kit, but more on the fringe with greater care needed with system synergy.

 

dave

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A touch off thread but speaking of synergy; I took my latest Holton 300W DIY amp to a friend’s place who has the Osborn Grand Monuments now with upgraded XOver. It was the best I’ve ever heard the Monuments. They really lifted and delivered an expansive And commanding sound.
 

The owner has a powerful SS amp but for some reason the Holton/Monument combo truely synergised. 

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What is the buddy’s amp?

 

dave

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19 minutes ago, planet10 said:

What is the buddy’s amp?

 

dave

PM me. 

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Perhaps. AFAIC more of Decware’s bluster. A Dayton PS220 (a not bad driver) with a passive transformer based EQ, and a huge mark-up.

 

dave

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This new SB Acoustics FR looks good on paper! I don't think it will be too expensive, as it looks based off the budget woofer line of drivers. I'd like to try this one when it's available...

 

8%20SB20FRPC30-8-pic.jpg8 SB20FRPC30-8-spec.jpg8%20SB20FRPC30-8-graph.jpg

SPECIAL FEATURES:

  • Proprietary cone material with natural fibers made in-house
  • Light weight foam surround
  • Optimized whizzer cone for smooth high frequency extension
  • Phase plug for controlled radiation
  • Large spider for improved linearity
  • Optimized motor system
  • Vented reinforced plastic chassis
  • Non-conductive coil former
  • Long life lead wires
  • Extended copper sleeve on pole piece

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Mushroom01 said:

This new SB Acoustics FR looks good on paper! I don't think it will be too expensive, as it looks based off the budget woofer line of drivers. I'd like to try this one when it's available...

 

8%20SB20FRPC30-8-pic.jpg8 SB20FRPC30-8-spec.jpg8%20SB20FRPC30-8-graph.jpg

SPECIAL FEATURES:

  • Proprietary cone material with natural fibers made in-house
  • Light weight foam surround
  • Optimized whizzer cone for smooth high frequency extension
  • Phase plug for controlled radiation
  • Large spider for improved linearity
  • Optimized motor system
  • Vented reinforced plastic chassis
  • Non-conductive coil former
  • Long life lead wires
  • Extended copper sleeve on pole piece

 

 

Does look good. They are taking orders but I saw no pricing. 

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SB is expanding their range rapidly… some interesting stuff.

dave

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19 hours ago, planet10 said:

SB is expanding their range rapidly… some interesting stuff.

dave

Yes, the Satori 7.5" coaxial is another driver of interest to me. Would make a great top end for a large floor standing speaker!

 

http://www.sbacoustics.com/index.php/coming-soon/7-satori-coaxial/

 

7%20SATORI%20COAXIAL%20-%20pic.jpg

Edited by Mushroom01

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1 hour ago, Mushroom01 said:

Yes, the Satori 7.5" coaxial is another driver of interest to me. Would make a great top end for a large floor standing speaker!

So much.

 

... but I am scared to find out the price.  Anyone know?   (Available now for pre-order)

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A build of some horns i just completed today with a couple of Daves Enabled Alpair 7.3 as a test build for some 15" Tannoy DC drivers from leftover ply and recycled hardwood.

Steve.

7FD84639-F25C-4A2B-8482-EB9B1D74DA27.jpeg

7A46AC07-4292-48B9-9237-56A75C354774.jpeg

2 - 1 (7).jpeg

2 - 1 (6).jpeg

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On 08/12/2019 at 9:25 AM, aussievintage said:

Doppler effect is worse when an object is moving fast, not when it is moving the most distance.  This means the bass excursions will effect the frequency of the high end less than mid and treble excuresions will affect it.

SPL is proportional to cone acceleration. If SPL/acceleration are kept constant, but the frequency is halved, then cone velocity doubles and excursion quadruples. It is perhaps intuitive to think that if the cone is moving back and forth many thousands of times per second, it must be moving very fast compared to doing this only tens of times per second, but this is not true in practice because the coil only moves a tiny distance at high frequencies. Therefore the cone does not have to move nearly as fast to produce the same SPL at kHz as compared to bass frequencies.

Bass is also typically louder than treble in most studio recorded music, therefore the velocity contribution of the bass is much higher than the treble. Bass is therefore the major modulating source in doppler distortion. 

There is a second problem caused by using a single driver across both bass and treble and that is intermodulation distortion. Here the displacement of the coil is the issue as flux density and coil inductance do not remain constant versus the coil position in the magnetic gap. This causes the amplitude of the treble to be modulated as the coil moves in and out. Better driver design can minimise the amount that flux density and inductance change versus excursion (bl(X) and Le(X)). Additionally you have the modulation of flux density and inductance due to current flowing through the voicecoil, bl(i) and Le(i) respectively. In bass heavy content, the voicecoil current will be higher in the bass frequencies, therefore the bass is the major modulating source for this again.

 

Both doppler distortion and IMD manifest as a warbling or shimmering effect on the treble (particularly noticeable in vocals) when large amplitude bass hits in a single driver system.

Edited by TMM

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3 hours ago, kranky said:

A build of some horns i just completed today with a couple of Daves Enabled Alpair 7.3 as a test build for some 15" Tannoy DC drivers from leftover ply and recycled hardwood.

Steve.

7FD84639-F25C-4A2B-8482-EB9B1D74DA27.jpeg

7A46AC07-4292-48B9-9237-56A75C354774.jpeg

2 - 1 (7).jpeg

2 - 1 (6).jpeg

Looks so good. 

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10 hours ago, kranky said:

A build of some horns i just completed today

7A46AC07-4292-48B9-9237-56A75C354774.jpeg

 

Steve,

 

Any comments on the sound? Plans?

 

They aren’t very big so likely don’t go that low (corner would really help, but i expect it is really good in the upper bass.

 

dave

 

Edited by planet10

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