Power Cables / Power Conditioning

[Guest Muon N']

3 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

If the cable's fat enough, and shielded, it should be good for everything. Product differentiation just creates yet more market for the cable companies.

Just going on what a fair few have found themselves.

 

I make no claims regarding manufactures or from my own experience with this.

Edit: although just from a theory point it may hold water, due to different current draw, but that this just a theory aspect and just my view.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Muon N'

[bob_m_54]

3 hours ago, Ittaku said:

If the cable's fat enough, and shielded, it should be good for everything. Product differentiation just creates yet more market for the cable companies.

And if it complies with Australian Standards, then it is fat enough.

[bob_m_54]

4 hours ago, Muon N' said:

Metallurgy/Dielectrics/Electromagnetic Fields (so construction also worth some interest?) are areas worth looking at IMO. Maybe digging deeper into the physics of it all can be interesting.

At 50Hz, dielectric properties aren't an issue. Insulation is though.

Edited November 6, 2019 by bob_m_54

[RCADees]

Although I truly do not have much experience at all with cables, I can say that I was a total sceptic when it came down to power cables. Except for impedance, I was completely and utterly convinced that it was all a pile of crap.

Nevertheless, I have a Rega Brio-R, I mean, it is very good, but really, it is a $1,000 amp, so why would I need a power cable?

 

So this year I had some spare cash and out of boredom I visited the Hi-Fi shop and they lent me an Isotek  Sequel, I laughed and they just said I could just simply return it if it did nothing. So I seriously left the shop thinking, this is actually more of a pain, because I am 100% sure that I will have to come back tomorrow again to return the bloody thing and tell them how it was all a waste of time.

So I took it home. Me and my partner usually listen on Sunday nights to a particular song on CD from this particular Japanese artist so we know it by heart. I listened with the standard cable. Yes, I knew the song and how it sounds. Then I did the swap for the Isotek cable, I really thought that I was imagining things because I could now hear more and more.

Instruments were so clear, they were just there, so separate and clearly which I just didn't notice, the voice, the sound stage, the whole thing sounded like another system. A much, much better resolving system.

BUT I had to make sure. So without saying much I asked my partner to sit down and did the same test. By the way she just can't be bothered with any of this Hi-Fi, cables etc, crap talk. She likes music and that is about it.

But she just couldn't stop commenting how different the whole thing sounded. How much better. Truly, what a difference! And if she could hear it, then it had to be real. 

 

So I had to eat my words and bought the cable the next day. I am a believer.

Should I spend double the amount on an even better cable? I don't think so. I just like the result so much that I had to get it.

Do I need science to tell me why this is? I don't, it just simply worked.

Nevertheless I have been very curious and I have done some research to understand better why power and power cables have such a profound effect and I can understand now some of it, there is certainly some reasoning behind this madness. 

However, it is unlikely that I would have been in this position if it wasn't because I tried it and it works for me. 

 

One of the things I learned is that the goal of the use of what comes from the wall is what it comes down to.

Are you using power to cook or use for illumination? or are you using a resolving enough sound system that would take advantage of a cleaner line and a better power cable that perhaps can show the difference on what you can hear by removing noise?

 

As already said somewhere before here, try it. If you can't hear any difference then return it. And if it makes a difference that you are happy with, then get it!

 

Ps: this whole thing about power cables seem to be like religion, it does it for some but not for others. Is it worth it to question it?

[Bilbo]

On 06/11/2019 at 11:31 AM, Hydrology said:

I should clarify and say that my electronics engineering background is university qualifications rather than long-term work experience. I deliberately avoid the heated debates regarding power products and even general cables on this (and other) forum as quite honestly it bores me to tears the incessant whinging and back and forth about benefits/gains/losses/contraints. At the end of the day time would be better served listening to music.

I will say this:-

 

1.  Try any/all cables in your own system. Borrow from a friend/store.

2. If you hear a difference, decide if its a difference for the better, or worse.

3. If you like the difference, spend the money.

4. If you don't like the difference, return the product.

5. If someone could PROVE that any difference you hear is purely placebo (like most people on the forums, choose option 3 or 4 above.

 

 

 

 

 Hydrology hits the nail on the head!  Follow his advice from 1 to 5 and you can decide for yourself.

From my experience all cables make a difference - you just have to decide whether they make a difference (in a good way) to you.  

[Ed Sky]

On 06/11/2019 at 8:22 AM, Sime said:

To me, if the debate is ongoing, that’s an answer in itself. 
 

You never see threads titled “do speakers sound different”. 

In fairness there are heated debates on multiple forums (such as AVSForums) that debate:

- whether hi res audio sounds better than 44khz

- whether all level matched amplifiers sound the same

- if all modern CD players sound the same

- if all modern AV preprocessors sound the same

 

In my naive youth a few years ago I made the serious mistake of getting involved in one of these debates. It caused me extreme frustration and the surprise is that I was not debating with fools. One of the proponents of the "amplifiers sound the same" camp was the inventor of MP3.

 

On 05/11/2019 at 11:00 PM, Ittaku said:

1. No science can explain how a power cable could affect sound quality, apart from shielding in certain circumstances, and no measurement has ever shown they make a measurable difference. Claims from power cable manufacturers about the mechanism for improvement of their power cables are only published in their publicity material and never in respected peer-reviewed scientific journals where they can be appropriately critiqued.

2. In the absence of a mechanism or measurement showing power cables make a difference, then if there is still a difference, it is something we can't measure and would only show up in a properly conducted blinded trial.

3. Double blind trials in audio seem to have a very poor acceptance rate and there is a lot of debate about whether they have the ability to resolve real differences.

4. Every report of audible improvements with power cables have been done in a sighted fashion without blinding and people who insist there is a difference refuse to participate in blinded trials (see point 3.)

@Ittaku this is the exact rationale used to motivate that CD, amplifiers and preamplifiers all sound the same. People struggle to find properly conducted double blind tests; and ironically there are heaps of double blind tests where people are unable to successfully pick out the differences between amplifiers / CD players (though these tests are not well conducted and usually set up with a biased agenda). I even recall a peer reviewed study with decent sample size that showed that people could not detect differences between 44khz and hi res. I suspect most on this site would disagree with these outcomes but the debates do continue to rage on and they all use the four points you mention as rationale.

[Ittaku]

6 minutes ago, Ed Sky said:

@Ittaku this is the exact rationale used to motivate that CD, amplifiers and preamplifiers all sound the same. People struggle to find properly conducted double blind tests; and ironically there are heaps of double blind tests where people are unable to successfully pick out the differences between amplifiers / CD players (though these tests are not well conducted and usually set up with a biased agenda). I even recall a peer reviewed study with decent sample size that showed that people could not detect differences between 44khz and hi res. I suspect most on this site would disagree with these outcomes but the debates do continue to rage on and they all use the four points you mention as rationale.

The big difference there is at the very least they all measure differently, unlike power cables.

[Ed Sky]

30 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

The big difference there is at the very least they all measure differently, unlike power cables.

https://www.essentialsound.com/power-cable-technology.htm refer to the section on null tests. Granted this test is from a manufacturer that has a vested interest though they do offer their results in digital format for upload and self comparison.

[Ittaku]

1 hour ago, Ed Sky said:

https://www.essentialsound.com/power-cable-technology.htm refer to the section on null tests. Granted this test is from a manufacturer that has a vested interest though they do offer their results in digital format for upload and self comparison.

Advertising blurb unfortunately. None of their claims have been verified by a third party. All their results simply could be the result of shielding, and shielding costs almost nothing to add to a power cable. Stereophile pride themselves on providing measurements in addition to auditioning their components, but never once have provided measurements from a power cable. It's also worth noting that gauges don't have the same meaning when we're on 240V versus the US on 110.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Ittaku

[dbob]

No doubt this is a heated topic about whether expensive power cables make a difference or not. I actually wonder how much the placebo effect has a bearing on people's perception of whether there is an improvement or not.

 

I'm no electrical engineer but I understand that thicker cables, better insulation etc etc will improve the performance of your system. However the power cable is just one link in the power supply chain. As they say, any system is only as good as it's weakest link. You may be paying $100's for better power cables but have you thought about what type electrical wiring is actually running behind your walls? Unless you have rewired your house, I can't see how an expensive power cable is going to improve what is coming through the walls?

 

[Guest Muon N']

Many people highlight the power cabling in the walls, and even all the way back to the substation, I see it as a red hearing myself. Edit: when I say a red hearing I am not meaning it is one that is intentional.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Muon N'

[sjay]

pure snake oil is what they are.

[Gregg Froman]

Speaking of power conditioners and to blow the naysayers heads up (LOL),

Got this High Fidelity PRO Helix Signature Power Conditioner burning in currently.

This is one serious conditioner!!

Reminds me of something Nicola Tesla would have invented!!

 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2020 by Fro

[Gregg Froman]

Edited February 5, 2020 by Fro

[mr_gray]

i hope you write about it and let us know what you think it does for your system.  i would certainly be interested to hear ;-) about it.   i do believe (oh glorious gods of cable) and so the idea of something that retails (on cable.co - and they have good prices) for $50k USD makes me eager to understand how it performs.  also presumably you've tried other power conditioners along the way, would be great to have your thoughts on them in a relative sense.

 

diminishing returns applies at some point so it would be interesting to have your perspective on what the "extra" $ buys you.  like what is the difference between a PS Audio and this amazing HELIX device you feature here?