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Serentity

AV Receiver Upgrade/Advice

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Background info: Within the next 3 months I will be doing a major upgrade to the components in the home theatre room. One of the upgrades is the Av receiver.

Room size is 6m Long 4.1m Wide, and roughly 3m in Height (Step down 2 levels)

Components staying: Elektra Theatre HD2 5 Channel Amp, Oppo 105D (Mod), Home Theatre Computer,  Adelaide Speakers - Central Speaker and Subwoofer and Emotiva (Similar to) Airmotiva E1 surround speakers.

Buying Soon: Timberwolf Series Front speakers (Adelaide Speakers) plus Kriz Ceiling Speakers Atmospherix A20 either 2 or 4 speakers, leading towards 2 due to room size.

Wish-list/ Buying Soonish 4k Player (Panasonic Brand)and 4k Projector (JVC or Epson) 

Sound setup will be either 7.1.2 or 7.1.4. (I will not be going any bigger due to room size)

 

Budget up to $4000.00 for receiver

 

Question: I'm looking at either the Denon AVR-X3600 or Marantz SR6014?> Your Thoughts or advice?> Have discarded the Marantz AV7705 as I think its overkill and Anthem MRX-720 as I believe it needs a update.

 

Will be pairing the receiver with my Elektra for Front duties and thinking of getting the  Emotiva BASX A-5175 for the rear duties unless people think its a overkill, as I'm in two minds on this, as i know the internal Amps on the receiver should do an ok job for the rears and ceiling speakers.. ?>>

 

Thanks for taking your time in reading this..

 

 

 

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Hi, I would wait a little longer for the HDMI 2.1 48GBps receivers coming next year so you can future proof as IMO they are around the corner.

In regards to running internal amp for rear is a good idea however if insufficient, you can always add another amp to the receiver’s Pre-outs if supported.

Cheers

 

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well that mid level denon now has 11 pre-outs..outstanding vs say the yammy rxa2080. the denon is on special just over $1800 so that saves a bit on the marantz at $2500.

 

that room you should look at 4 atmos ceiling.. the avr saving helps toward the extra 2 atmos speaker cost.

 

very light reading https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/marantz-sr6014-vs-denon-avr-x3600h.115456/

Edited by hopefullguy

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1 hour ago, hopefullguy said:

well that mid level denon now has 11 pre-outs..outstanding vs say the yammy rxa2080. the denon is on special just over $1800 so that saves a bit on the marantz at $2500.

 

that room you should look at 4 atmos ceiling.. the avr saving helps toward the extra 2 atmos speaker cost.

 

very light reading https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/marantz-sr6014-vs-denon-avr-x3600h.115456/

Thanks

 

Another good read: https://www.zkelectronics.com/compare/denon-avr-x3600h/usa/marantz-sr6014/usa/

The SR6014 just wins on that review site.

 

That's a good price on the Denon as well.

 

Just need to work out if buying Emotiva BASX A-5175 is overkill....

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1 hour ago, vinni9284 said:

Hi, I would wait a little longer for the HDMI 2.1 48GBps receivers coming next year so you can future proof as IMO they are around the corner.

In regards to running internal amp for rear is a good idea however if insufficient, you can always add another amp to the receiver’s Pre-outs if supported.

Cheers

 

Thanks for the info, but unless I wait for all the components to be 2.1 HDMI, to my knowledge I wont see the benefits.

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hmm a 2nd 5 channel amp at around $2000. the Elektra is a bit of a power house and powering fronts/centre and ? (surrounds?). so thats 5 of the 11.

 

then there is 2 rears and 4 atmos, all are 6 and 8ohm so yes the avr should do fine but depends on what your mind tells you as it controls your thinking, forget the ears haha.

 

personally that emotiva seems nothing special, i would save the $$ and look for something like a 2nd hand rotel rmb1075, they go for $650 and have the same power as the emotiva at lower THD.

 

just puts money back in your pocket and you are only powering speakers for HT effects. anyway why not just wait until you see how things go with avr?

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"Emotiva BASX A-5175 for the rear duties unless people think its a overkill"

It's overkill me think. $2k AVR + 5ch power amp is enough. 

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4 hours ago, Serentity said:

...and Anthem MRX-720 as I believe it needs a update.

What update are you talking about?

4 hours ago, Serentity said:

Will be pairing the receiver with my Elektra for Front duties and thinking of getting the  Emotiva BASX A-5175 for the rear duties unless people think its a overkill, as I'm in two minds on this, as i know the internal Amps on the receiver should do an ok job for the rears and ceiling speakers.. ?>>

With Atmos, it is better to use decent amps.

 

As a general observation, ignore the so-called power for 2 channels for AVRs. Use the total power consumption to compare different AVRs and pick models with higher total power consumption. Better still, companies such as NAD, Arcam publishes power when multiple channels are driven.

 

You should also consider room correction. Anthem Room Correction and Dirac Live makes a difference. With your budget, you can consider Anthem, NAD, Arcam, Emotiva.

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Another thought might be to pick up say a used Oppo 203, and combine with a used  Marantz AV8802A if you can make it, along with another power amp of a good used variety, Yes to four Atmos speakers but don't forget to look at the way Monitor Audio do there setup could be saving to be had in theirs, make sure your Atmos's come with sealed rear boxes if you can too.

 

Good Luck with the upgrade sounds like fun.... pun intended.

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3 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

What update are you talking about?

With Atmos, it is better to use decent amps.

 

As a general observation, ignore the so-called power for 2 channels for AVRs. Use the total power consumption to compare different AVRs and pick models with higher total power consumption. Better still, companies such as NAD, Arcam publishes power when multiple channels are driven.

 

You should also consider room correction. Anthem Room Correction and Dirac Live makes a difference. With your budget, you can consider Anthem, NAD, Arcam, Emotiva.

Currently the Anthem 720 has:

11.2 Pre-Amplifier & 7 Amplifier Channels

  • Dolby Atmos®
  • DTS:X™
  • ARC® Anthem Room Correction
  • 4 Speaker Profile Memories
  • Quad Core Digital Signal Processing
  • Two Sub Out Jacks (parallel)
  • Premium 32-bit / 768 kHz Differential-Output D/A Converters
  • Wireless Network Connection
  • DTS Play-Fi® + "Works with Alexa" certification – Local and Streaming

HDMI & Video

  • HDMI 2.0a
  • HDCP 2.2
  • 4:4:4 Subsampling at 4K60 (18.2 Gbps)
  • High Dynamic Range (HDR)
  • Dolby Vision™ Compatible
  • Hybrid Log Gamma (HLG)
  • BT.2020 Color Gamut
  • On-Screen Display with 4K 50/60
  • 4K 50/60 Switching

While the other 2 have:

SR60.14

Key Features:

  • 9.2 channel AV Receiver with 110 W per channel - Enough power to fill big rooms with renowned Marantz sound
  • Works With - Amazon Alexa, Google Assistant, Apple Airplay2
  • Built-in WiFi with 2.4GHz/5GHz dual band support; built-in Bluetooth - Improved network stability especially in WiFi-crowded homes
  • 4K/60 Hz full-rate pass-through, 4:4:4 colour resolution, HDR and BT.2020, plus Dolby Vision compatibility and Hybrid Log Gamma (HLG) - Full compatibility with the latest video standards for best picture quality
  • 8 HDMI inputs (incl. 1 front) with full HDCP 2.3 support; 3 HDMI outputs, with 1 HDMI output supporting eARC - Extended connectivity; 2 main zone HDMI outputs + 1 zone output
  • Analogue to HDMI conversion and full rate 4K Upscaling - Full HD and even Ultra HD video quality from existing video sources
  • Audyssey MultEQ XT32, Dynamic Volume and Dynamic EQ, LFC, Sub EQ HT - Delivering the most advanced equalization for your individual room
  • Premium entertainment experience with IMAX Enhanced - New standard for imaging, sound, scale and clarity
  • Dolby Atmos (up to 7.1.4 with add. 2ch amplifier) and DTS:X - Immersive 3D sound with effects from overhead
  • Audiophile AKM AK4458 32-bit D/A converters; HDAM; Current Feedback - For the most accurate and detailed audio reproduction
  • AirPlay 2, Bluetooth, Internet Radio, Spotify Free and Premium, Network Audio Streaming - Access to almost unlimited online music sources
  • DSD (2.8/5.6MHz), FLAC, ALAC and WAV support - High Resolution audio streaming, even gapless
  • Integrated high-quality Phono input - Connect your turntable and listen to your beloved Vinyl Records
  • HEOS Built-in - Wireless Multi-room audio, voice control and digital music streaming
  • Extended multi-room capabilities - Enjoy native surround in main room while distributing same source as 2ch downmix in second zone
  • Colour-coded speaker terminals, Setup Assistant, Marantz AVR Remote App - Hassle-free installation, setup and operation

AVRX3600

FEATURES:

  • 9.2 channel AV receiver with 105W per channel and 11.2 channels of processing (preamp): Nine powerful amplifiers tuned to provide the classic and dynamic Denon sound experience
  • IMAX Enhanced Technology: Delivers a true IMAX theater experience at home
  • Supports Dolby Atmos, Dolby Atmos Height Virtualization Technology, DTS:X and DTS Virtual:X: Enjoy an immersive, three-dimensional audio experience up to 7.2.4 with an additional 2ch amplifier
  • Amazon Alexa, Google Assistant and Apple Siri voice control: Use your voice to control the AVR-X3600H and wireless music services hands-free
  • 8 HDMI inputs with full HDCP 2.3 support, 3 HDMI outputs: Connect up to eight media devices and output to two displays (ex. TV or projector in the living room and another device in the multi-zone)
  • Enhanced Audio Return Channel (eARC): Supports the latest 3D audio formats such as Dolby Atmos and DTS:X from your TV audio signal via HDMI
  • 4K/60 Hz, Dolby Vision, HDR10, HLG, 4:4:4 color resolution and BT.2020: Provides the greatest video quality with exceptional brightness, contrast and color
  • Award-winning Denon Setup Assistant and graphical user interface: Easy and intuitive out-of-box setup experience
  • “ihiji Invision” and “Domotz Pro” remote system monitoring and management technology: Lets custom integrators monitor and troubleshoot remotely, drastically reducing downtime
  • Supports Spotify, Pandora, TuneIn, Deezer and more: Wirelessly stream and enjoy the most popular music services
  • HEOS Built-in wireless multi-room music streaming technology: Listen from any room for a connected, whole-home audio experience
  • Built-in Wi-Fi with 2.4GHz/5GHz dual band support, plus built-in Bluetooth®: Stable wireless network connectivity even in congested environments
  • High-resolution DSD (2.8/5.6MHz), FLAC, ALAC and WAV support: High-resolution audio streaming for Hi-Fi enthusiasts
  • Audyssey MultEQ XT32, Dynamic Volume and Dynamic EQ, LFC and Sub EQ HT: Automatcially optimizes audio for your unique listening environment, including subwoofer equalization
  • Game Mode: Supports Auto Low Latency Mode (ALLM) for lag-free gaming (requires supported 4K display and game console)
  • 12 V Trigger output: Connect a device such as a cooling fan or projector and operate on standby power

Their appears to be a number of improvements over the Anthem 720?>

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

What update are you talking about?

With Atmos, it is better to use decent amps.

 

As a general observation, ignore the so-called power for 2 channels for AVRs. Use the total power consumption to compare different AVRs and pick models with higher total power consumption. Better still, companies such as NAD, Arcam publishes power when multiple channels are driven.

 

You should also consider room correction. Anthem Room Correction and Dirac Live makes a difference. With your budget, you can consider Anthem, NAD, Arcam, Emotiva.

Thanks for the room correction link.

 

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Since you already have the Elektra HD2 5 channel amp, my recommendation is to contact Author and get it upgrade to a 7 channels. It would be cheaper and better than getting a new/used Emotiva. This way all floor 7 channels have the same characteristic. For the 4 atmos channels, I would use the one from your AVR. Unfortunately, the power section of your AVR is still going even if you don't have speakers going to it.

With the AVR, best for you to listen and see if you like the sound of each company and go from there. Some worthy one to consider: 

Denon x3600, x3500, x4500.

Marantz: sr6013, sr6014, sr7012.

 

Haven't use a Yamaha, Onkyo or Athem for the last 5 years so don't really know what they are like. I have tried an Arcam AVR400 few months ago and it is awesome. So maybe try out an Arcam. 

 

With the money you saved from the Emotiva, consider a second sub and make it into a 7.2.4 system. 

Edited by Soundfever

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@Serenity.  Getting more ticks in a side by side comparison list does not mean an AVR is better.

 

Ignore any video "processing" as the Panasonic 4K player will be better and does the real work.

 

That leaves HT audio as the focus. Power amps on  AVRs are not the best. Ignore marketing BS on power in specs which fudge 2 channels driven.  Instead, take total power consumption, divided by number of powered channels X 50% efficiency  to give a better idea of how much power an AVR can deliver to each speaker. E.g. 660W / 9 CH * 50% = 37W per channel ! Arcam and NAD give real power per channel when driven simultaneously.

 

Hence, better to use multi channel amps if possible rather than AVRs.

 

Room correction improves audio which you saw in article.

 

The other important thing is number of HDMI ports.

 

To me, the rest of a feature list are nice to have, but you may consider some features more important than others.

 

Enough of my sermon.  

 

P/s Have owned Denon, Anthem, NAD AVRs

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@Snoopy8 If they are class D amps which I assume most AVR's have these days rather than class A/B then aren't we talking 80% to 95% efficient?

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Double post..

Edited by Snoopy8

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2 hours ago, Satanica said:

@Snoopy8 If they are class D amps which I assume most AVR's have these days rather than class A/B then aren't we talking 80% to 95% efficient?

Anthem uses Class D for surrounds but have not seen others saying so. Also, I think 80% is more realistic?  They will be using cheap ones only?

 

**  I do not know the economics & technology challenges of using Class A/B vs Class D, better designed ones vs an entry one etc.  All I know is that price is a major driver, especially for entry and mid level models.

Edited by Snoopy8
Added **

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avr powering 9 channels is irrelevant here.

 

op has 5 taken care of 5 speakers already and as suggested the best thing would be to add the 2 extra amps making the elektra 7. then the avr does 4 atmos speakers. not too hard there.

Edited by hopefullguy

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31 minutes ago, hopefullguy said:

avr powering 9 channels is irrelevant here.

 

op has 5 taken care of 5 speakers already and as suggested the best thing would be to add the 2 extra amps making the elektra 7. then the avr does 4 atmos speakers. not too hard there.

I agree that using only 4 channels taxes the AVR  less, but we do not know how the AVR performs with 4 channels. A better designed AVR will allocate power from the unused channels to the ones being driven. A poorly designed AVR may not.  We just do not know because the manufactures publish a big power number in their marketing materials.  WOW, look how much power my AVR can produce!  An AVR is a technogical marvel being able to do so many things but the main difference between an entry level and high end are the amps.  Entry and mid level AVRs hide this difference by fudging.

 

Fudging can be done by using 2 channels driven (and I have seen 1 channel driven), using 4 or 6 ohm speakers, using high THD etc.  Some publish 2 channels driven for front, rear etc.  More marketing...

 

My point is that don't believe those power numbers unless they publish power numbers when simultaneous channels are drive. Arcam, NAD, Cambridge Audio can publish them, why can't others?.   Anthem used to publish them in the MRX-x10 series but chose to fudge in the MRX-x20 series. 

 

Hence my suggestion of using the total power consumption of AVRs as a better guide.  

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21 hours ago, Soundfever said:

Since you already have the Elektra HD2 5 channel amp, my recommendation is to contact Author and get it upgrade to a 7 channels. It would be cheaper and better than getting a new/used Emotiva. This way all floor 7 channels have the same characteristic. For the 4 atmos channels, I would use the one from your AVR. Unfortunately, the power section of your AVR is still going even if you don't have speakers going to it.

With the AVR, best for you to listen and see if you like the sound of each company and go from there. Some worthy one to consider: 

Denon x3600, x3500, x4500.

Marantz: sr6013, sr6014, sr7012.

 

Haven't use a Yamaha, Onkyo or Athem for the last 5 years so don't really know what they are like. I have tried an Arcam AVR400 few months ago and it is awesome. So maybe try out an Arcam. 

 

With the money you saved from the Emotiva, consider a second sub and make it into a 7.2.4 system. 

Thanks, I check for a price to upgrade the Amp through Arthur. Good idea.

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6 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

I agree that using only 4 channels taxes the AVR  less, but we do not know how the AVR performs with 4 channels. A better designed AVR will allocate power from the unused channels to the ones being driven. A poorly designed AVR may not.  We just do not know because the manufactures publish a big power number in their marketing materials.  WOW, look how much power my AVR can produce!  An AVR is a technogical marvel being able to do so many things but the main difference between an entry level and high end are the amps.  Entry and mid level AVRs hide this difference by fudging.

 

Fudging can be done by using 2 channels driven (and I have seen 1 channel driven), using 4 or 6 ohm speakers, using high THD etc.  Some publish 2 channels driven for front, rear etc.  More marketing...

 

My point is that don't believe those power numbers unless they publish power numbers when simultaneous channels are drive. Arcam, NAD, Cambridge Audio can publish them, why can't others?.   Anthem used to publish them in the MRX-x10 series but chose to fudge in the MRX-x20 series. 

 

Hence my suggestion of using the total power consumption of AVRs as a better guide.  

good point snoopy and I will be checking "using the total power consumption of AVRs as a better guide."

 

So far I checked SR6014 680W

                      AVRX3600H 660W

Edited by Serentity

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6 hours ago, Serentity said:

good point snoopy and I will be checking "using the total power consumption of AVRs as a better guide."

 

So far I checked SR6014 680W

                      AVRX3600H 660W

Hi Serentity ; you will notice the 3600h's specified watts/ch drops down to 105W at a substantial THD figure when 2 channels are driven close to clipping[ as below] ; make it 4 atmos and this drops again as Snoopy has indicated. :blush:

 

Another option [if you fancy the advantages of true separates]would be a 7.1.4 pre pro like a anthem av60 or a cheaper Yammie ; sell the 5ch Elektra for a good sum and get an Emotiva XPA11 ; on sale atm [ dual differential ;class H efficiency on the L/C/R and over 3 kW of continuous power ] 

 
Quote

 

Power Output (8 ohm, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% 2ch Drive)
105 W

 

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19 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

I Arcam, NAD, Cambridge Audio can publish them, why can't others?.   

No one would buy them. Most people looking at getting into HT are beginners and look for entry/mid level models. AND most are fixated on how many watts it has thinking that's what makes it louder. Denon/Onkyo/Yamaha/Marantz bring out their best performing mid level 7.2 channel receiver and it truthfully puts out 35w/ch into ALL channels, people would scoff. I've seen it many times while I was on another forum. Suggest a NAD 40w/ch receiver and 'yeah right. You're just a rich audiophile'. 

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3 hours ago, blakey72 said:

No one would buy them. Most people looking at getting into HT are beginners and look for entry/mid level models. AND most are fixated on how many watts it has thinking that's what makes it louder. Denon/Onkyo/Yamaha/Marantz bring out their best performing mid level 7.2 channel receiver and it truthfully puts out 35w/ch into ALL channels, people would scoff. I've seen it many times while I was on another forum. Suggest a NAD 40w/ch receiver and 'yeah right. You're just a rich audiophile'. 

Yep ignorance is bliss, they don’t know what they are missing and don’t care either. The spec sheet says plenty of power, well it must have plenty of power then!

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On 05/11/2019 at 10:47 AM, blakey72 said:

No one would buy them. Most people looking at getting into HT are beginners and look for entry/mid level models. AND most are fixated on how many watts it has thinking that's what makes it louder. Denon/Onkyo/Yamaha/Marantz bring out their best performing mid level 7.2 channel receiver and it truthfully puts out 35w/ch into ALL channels, people would scoff. I've seen it many times while I was on another forum. Suggest a NAD 40w/ch receiver and 'yeah right. You're just a rich audiophile'. 

 

On 05/11/2019 at 2:03 PM, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

Yep ignorance is bliss, they don’t know what they are missing and don’t care either. The spec sheet says plenty of power, well it must have plenty of power then!

I decided to use some actual marketing material in another thread.  I hope it has not upset too many AVR owners.

 

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17 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

 

I decided to use some actual marketing material in another thread.  I hope it has not upset too many AVR owners.

 

Good post Snoopy, Luckily my Elektra will taker care of over half my speakers, and most likely i upgrade it to run 7 speakers, then down the track if needed my a second hand power amp for the rest of the speakers, or something similar like Emotiva XPA11. 

 

My only concern now, thanks to all the good replies i got so far is to get receiver that has all latest tech, sound codecs etc..  

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