Ortofon 2M Black alignment

[hlov]

Well, this guy is really picky but I think I managed to aligned properly. I was told that it has that the arm has to be straight

 

what do you guys think?

[cheekyboy]

That's definitely a straight arm @hlov...............what else did you do?

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

[hlov]

2 hours ago, cheekyboy said:

That's definitely a straight arm @hlov...............what else did you do?

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Thanks mate, used the protractor to align the cartridge and also adjusted the counterweight using a digital scale.

 

It sounds different to the AT MC that I use on my Thorens, the instruments sound great, amazing bass but the vocals are a bit funny.

[andyr]

1 hour ago, hlov said:

 

It sounds different to the AT MC that I use on my Thorens, the instruments sound great, amazing bass but the vocals are a bit funny.

 

 

Have you got VTA correct for your cart?

 

Andy

 

[hlov]

5 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Have you got VTA correct for your cart?

 

Andy

 

That’s what I have tried to do. I was told before to lift the arm a little bit but that needs to be straight

[cheekyboy]

9 hours ago, hlov said:

That’s what I have tried to do. I was told before to lift the arm a little bit but that needs to be straight

 

The Ortofon 2M Black could be relied on to be designed and manufactured correctly, so without using a device like this SmartStylus device, the best you can do is to get that centre line marked on the tonearm, parallel to the surface of the record when the stylus is in contact with the playing surface.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

[andyr]

1 hour ago, cheekyboy said:

a device like this SmartStylus device

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

 

A great device - I use something similar (but a lot cheaper  ).

 

1 hour ago, cheekyboy said:

the best you can do is to get that centre line marked on the tonearm, parallel to the surface of the record when the stylus is in contact with the playing surface.

 

My approach is to get the top and bottom of the arm tube the same distance away from horizontal lines on the guage:

• if your arm tube is the same thickness all the way along then this is easy - you get the top (or the bottom) of the arm tube parallel with a horizontal line.
• but if your arm tube is thicker at the pillar end than the cart end - then 'horizontal' will mean you adjust height so you see the same distance between the top of the arm and a horizontal line and the bottom of the am and another horizontal line ... at both ends of the guage.

 

Andy

 

[aussievintage]

17 minutes ago, andyr said:

but if your arm tube is thicker at the pillar end than the cart end - then 'horizontal' will mean you adjust height so you see the same distance between the top of the arm and a horizontal line and the bottom of the am and another horizontal line ... at both ends of the guage.

 

In a smart move, some manufacturers such as Pro-ject, have painted a horizontal line on the arm tube to make it much easier.

[Gryffles]

11 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

In a smart move, some manufacturers such as Pro-ject, have painted a horizontal line on the arm tube to make it much easier.

True but a lot of headshells are actually parallel with the top of the arm (if you know what I mean)

The centre line of the arm is only a reference point.

 

 

 

[aussievintage]

16 minutes ago, Gryffles said:

True but a lot of headshells are actually parallel with the top of the arm (if you know what I mean)

The centre line of the arm is only a reference point.

 

Interesting.  I'll take note of that thanks.

[andyr]

26 minutes ago, Gryffles said:

True but a lot of headshells are actually parallel with the top of the arm (if you know what I mean)

The centre line of the arm is only a reference point.

 

 

 

 

The pic you show is of an arm which has a same-thickess-all-the-way-along arm tube, G.

 

How do you think your comment would go on, say, an SME V - whose arm tube is significantly thicker at the pillar end than the headshell end?

 

Also, the headshell is a much smaller length than the arm tube (or even 1/4 of the arm tube); it's easier to judge 'horizontality' with a longer length.

 

Andy

 

[aussievintage]

3 minutes ago, andyr said:

Also, the headshell is a much smaller length than the arm tube (or even 1/4 of the arm tube); it's easier to judge 'horizontality' with a longer length.

You could lay a long straight edge (ruler or something) along the headshell and see how it aligns along the arm tube.

[andyr]

1 minute ago, aussievintage said:

You could lay a long straight edge (ruler or something) along the headshell and see how it aligns along the arm tube.

 

I could do a lot of things - but IMO, using the arm tube itself - whether its tapered or straight - together with a 100mm long guage which has horizontal lines ... is by far the simplest and the most accurate.

 

Andy

 

[aussievintage]

1 minute ago, andyr said:

 

I could do a lot of things - but IMO, using the arm tube itself - whether its tapered or straight - together with a 100mm long guage which has horizontal lines ... is by far the simplest and the most accurate.

 

Andy

 

I just tried it with a Pro-ject arm.  It aligns with the marked line.   Now I know I can trust that in all future setups.

Edited November 2, 2019 by aussievintage

[Gryffles]

29 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

The pic you show is of an arm which has a same-thickess-all-the-way-along arm tube, G.

 

How do you think your comment would go on, say, an SME V - whose arm tube is significantly thicker at the pillar end than the headshell end?

 

Also, the headshell is a much smaller length than the arm tube (or even 1/4 of the arm tube); it's easier to judge 'horizontality' with a longer length.

 

Andy

 

The arm in the pic is tapered. And the head shell is aligned with the top plane of the arm hence why I used it as an example.

All I’m saying is not all arms are parallel if set by the centreline of the Tonearm.

[aussievintage]

Just now, Gryffles said:

The arm in the pic is tapered. And the head shell is aligned with the top plane of the arm hence why I used it as an example.

All I’m saying is not all arms are parallel if set by the centreline of the Tonearm.

Agreed.  In fact, it's the top of the cartridge that you are trying to get parallel to the record, so it is worth checking that, relative to the headshell, and then relative to the tonearm, before relying on the tonearm when doing a setup.

[cheekyboy]

1 hour ago, aussievintage said:

 

In a smart move, some manufacturers such as Pro-ject, have painted a horizontal line on the arm tube to make it much easier.

If you look at the OP's picture in the first post, that tonearm looks to be a tapered tonearm and they have drawn the centre line on the side. With the majority of cartridge manufacturers, getting that line parallel to the playing surface while the cartridge is in contact with the record, will get you very close to the correct VTA/SRA.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

[andyr]

16 minutes ago, Gryffles said:

The arm in the pic is tapered. And the head shell is aligned with the top plane of the arm hence why I used it as an example.

All I’m saying is not all arms are parallel if set by the centreline of the Tonearm.

 

Aah, OK - thanks, G. 

 

Andy

 

[hlov]

Thanks guys for the very useful comments, sorry, I did the Gong ride today and was awake from 4 am. The black picks every single good or bad detail on the record. I was listening to RLJ - Girl At Her Volcano and her voice sounded funny and then I realised that the record was dirty . I gave it a good clean and it played better.

 

it’s unbelievable the amount of detail that the cartridge can produce. I’m listening to Santana - Santana and I can hear pretty much everything, so cool. But I think I’ll need to take it to my technician if I decided to use it as my daily driver, don’t want to damage the stylus or my records, my plan is when I have some money to buy a new tonearm with VTA and put it on the Thorens and setup the Black properly.

 

ill be back to the Thorens in the meantime as it was setup by an specialist.

 

cheers

H

[hlov]

Oh boy, this is so addictive. I was ready to dock it until I found some documentation about adjusting the phono stage for the black. I did it and it sounds better than ever, can’t stop using it

[andyr]

4 hours ago, hlov said:

 

I was ready to dock it until I found some documentation about adjusting the phono stage for the black. I did it and it sounds better than ever, can’t stop using it

 

 

hlov - I'd be very interested to know:

a. what that documentation was (phono stage User Manual?), and

b. what 'adjustments' was it talking about?

 

Thanks,

Andy

 

[hlov]

4 hours ago, andyr said:

 

hlov - I'd be very interested to know:

a. what that documentation was (phono stage User Manual?), and

b. what 'adjustments' was it talking about?

 

Thanks,

Andy

 

Sure, I was referring to these posts:

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/pro-ject-tube-box-ds-ortofon-2m-black.821549/

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/ortofon-2m-black-frequency-response-charts.312499/

 

And then the Tube box DS manual. I have set it up as per the first comment on the first link and it sounds so good.

 

H

 

 

[andyr]

1 hour ago, hlov said:

Sure, I was referring to these posts:

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/pro-ject-tube-box-ds-ortofon-2m-black.821549/

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/ortofon-2m-black-frequency-response-charts.312499/

 

And then the Tube box DS manual. I have set it up as per the first comment on the first link and it sounds so good.

 

H

 

Thanks, H.

 

Interesting, reading through those 2 threads.  My first comment is that when Ortofon say "150 - 300pF cap loading " ... obviously they mean this includes all  the capacitance between the cart and the phono stage circuit.  IOW, it's the capacitance which the cart "sees" - which is made up of:

• headshell wiring
• arm wiring
• phono cable wiring
• cap loading on the phono stage.

My second comment is that here is someone who has actually bothered to measure the result of only giving a 33K load to an MM cart - and he finds this gives better sound than the default 47K loading!    ( @dwbasement would agree with him!  )

 

Looking at the specs of the Project Tube Box DS, I see it only offers 47K for the MM selection.  However, you can achieve 33K load by doing the following:

1. buy some RCA 'T' connectors (eg. from Jaycar)
2. insert these into the input RCA sockets in your Tube Box
3. plug the phono cable into one of the 'T' connector sockets, and
4. plug 'loaded' RCA plugs into the other 'T' connector socket.

'Loaded' RCA plugs are RCA plugs which have a resistor soldered between the terminals.  In your case, you need a 120K resistor - which acts in parallel with the default 47K, to deliver an overall 33K load.

 

I can supply you with quality 'loaded' plugs, if you're interested - and aren't too good at soldering. 

 

Andy

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by andyr

[dwbasement]

Yep, lower than 47K... thanks @andyr for kindly posted the loading plugs for me to play around with my MM carts, it might not make any difference to some carts but worth trying because you might be surprised, my P77 and MP500 both sound better (to my ears) on a lower loading. Also my DL102 sounds better on a higher loading.

[andyr]

3 minutes ago, dwbasement said:

Yep, lower than 47K... thanks @andyr for kindly posted the loading plugs for me to play around with my MM carts, it might not make any difference to some carts but worth trying because you might be surprised, my P77 and MP500 both sound better (to my ears) on a lower loading. Also my DL102 sounds better on a higher loading.

 

Just to further elaborate on what Dennis was saying:

1. his Garrott P77 and Nagoaka MP500 sound better at <47K loading.
2. his Denon DL102 sounds better at a higher loading than the 1K which is the recommendation on the DL102 spec sheet.

 

Andy