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metal beat

Mazda taken to court for Unconscionable Conduct

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Where is the rage from the popcorn brigade.  VW cop criticism for volunteering a recall.

 

Where are the calls for Mazda to be boycotted?

 

Mazda Australia is being taken to Federal Court by Australia’s peak consumer watchdog for allegedly engaging in “unconscionable conduct” and making “false or misleading representations in its dealings with consumers” who bought new cars between 2013 and 2017.

The vehicles affected include popular models such as the Mazda 2, Mazda 6, Mazda CX-5, Mazda CX-3 and Mazda BT-50.

 

https://www.caradvice.com.au/804793/mazda-taken-to-court-by-accc-for-unconscionable-conduct-and-false-or-misleading-representations/

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.news.com.au/technology/innovation/motoring/accc-drags-mazda-to-court-for-ignoring-and-lying-to-customers-and-ripping-them-off-over-faulty-vehicles/news-story/2f20bb8816d756e0c13b2c5a7d52fe52

 

 

Edited by metal beat

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Mazda tried similar “unconscionable conduct” when we owned a Mazda CX-9 between 2012 and 2015. 

 

many times I noticed when I drove my wife's CX-9 that it would lose power, rev high and be a little dangerous to drive.    Multiple times we complained to the Mazda dealer - each time they checked and said there was nothing wrong.   I just thought it must have been a crap auto gearbox.

 

  Then one month out of warranty on a service - guess what.  the dealer found the issue.  Some gearbox/transmission issue.   Then tried to charge us almost 5K to get it fixed as it was out of warranty.

 

Complained to Mazda in writing, threatened to take it to the ACCC and they agreed to replace the entire transmission but would not play for the dealer's labour costs.    Nice big argument with the dealer principle and they agreed to do it for around 1/3rd the cost.

 

  We just gave up - paid the few hundred $$ labour costs to get the transmission replaced and fitted.

 

  We sold the Mazda CX-9 within 4 weeks and will never buy another Mazda after their “unconscionable conduct” towards us as customers.

 

I hope the ACCC take Mazda to the cleaners and teaches them a lesson in customer relations and support.

 

   My wife has since bought a VW Tiguan for coming up to 4 years with zero problems - touch wood.

Edited by metal beat

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29 minutes ago, metal beat said:

Where is the rage from the popcorn brigade.  VW cop criticism for volunteering a recall.

 

Where are the calls for Mazda to be boycotted?

Trolling are we?  😜😀 

 

I think VW attracted more attention because it impacted more people. Locally, the head made it worse plus their legal actions made me lose interest in VW.  Mazda made you lose interest in them.  At the end of the day, each of us have our preferences...

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Can this thread end well?

 

I do hope so but..................

 

Disclaimer: I don't own a VW or a Mazda, but have owned both in the past.

Edited by rantan

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seems we need something or other to rage about :D keeps the wheels turning (unfortunate automobile reference)

 

VW past owner and wife is mazda owner, owned just about every level in the brand apart from the convertible.

 

she is likely unaware of this unconscionable conduct or been effected. our mazda 3 seems to be tootling around quite happily. though who knows might do a dummy spit in sympathy :D

 

if I asked my wife what car she will buy next time around wouldnt be suprised in the least its a mazda...decades of being happy with a brand is hard to beat... ps never asked if we can have popcorn thrown in the deal... maybe will ask next time :party 

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36 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Trolling are we?  😜😀 

 

I think VW attracted more attention because it impacted more people. Locally, the head made it worse plus their legal actions made me lose interest in VW.  Mazda made you lose interest in them.  At the end of the day, each of us have our preferences...

 

How would we know when Mazda try to keep issues a secret.     They only announce recalls after being forced to do so - not voluntarily.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, metal beat said:

 

How would we know when Mazda try to keep issues a secret.     They only announce recalls after being forced to do so - not voluntarily.

 

 

No different behaviour to the large majority of companies I suspect. 

 

Personally, I’ve owned 3 Mazda’s over the past 16 years or so and never had a problems with any of them.  The first one is now owned by my parents and still running with no issues.

 

My personal experience with Mazda has been great but as they say, your mileage may vary.

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We are in the age of corporations acting like psychopathic thugs. It's nothing more than sheer luck of the individual that determines whether you get to experience "no issues" or "complete wrath" in dealing with a manufacturer/company/corporation.

 

Be it Ford, VW, Mazda, Toyota, Holden, Mitsubishi, Samsung, Apple, LG, Huawei, GE, Boss, Behringer, Bose, Boeing, Mercedes ......... makes very little difference IMHO.

 

YMMV

Edited by zippi
edit: forgot to include Ford somehow

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As a general reply to the subject, I think that all large corporations are driven by the desire to maximise profit and minimise costs.

Recalls are costly and most ( if not all) car companies avoid them like a disease if given a chance. Mazda is no different, VW is no different, but they can all take lessons from the corporate Zen masters of avoiding recalls and an abject failure when it comes to rectifying fixing known problems during warranty... ...FORD.

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Consistency amongst manufacturers is overrated. written and authorised by the car manufacturers :ohmy:

 

Many customers just put up with the corporate thuggery which is no good for the consumer overall. 

 

It is good news that ACCC and better lemon laws are starting to come into being.

Edited by metal beat

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Just now, rantan said:

 

As a general reply to the subject, I think that all large corporations are driven by the desire to maximise profit and minimise costs.

Recalls are costly and most ( if not all) car companies avoid them like a disease if given a chance. Mazda is no different, VW is no different, but they can all take lessons from the corporate Zen masters of avoiding recalls and an abject failure when it comes to rectifying fixing known problems during warranty... ...FORD.

mazda has had its fair share... this is just in last 3 months,

 

https://www.productsafety.gov.au/products/transport/cars/mazda

 

recalls seem like a pretty much run of mill thing with cars these days ...

 

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I agree that the ACCC and consumer laws in general should be tightened significantly in regard to car problems. 

These large corporations care nothing about customers and all about profit, despite their protestations to the contrary and it is about time  that all of them should be held to account.

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What is at play here isn't whether Mazdas (or any other make of car for that matter) are unreliable or faulty, but how car manufacturers and their dealers treat customers who have legitimate rights under Australian consumer law.  Buying a car is the second largest purchase that most people will make, after a house.  However, the balance of power after purchase between manufacturer and purchaser is very lop-sided.  Purchasers are reliant on dealers to address legitimate problems that arise during warranty.  What has come to light here is a consistent flouting of consumer law by Mazda and its dealers, denial of consumer rights and even strong-arm tactics to force purchasers to accept compensation, leaving them $000s out of pocket.

 

The ACCC would not have taken action against Mazda unless it was forced to; like most regulatory agencies, it prefers to avoid court action by seeking legally-enforceable undertakings. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Bronal said:

What is at play here isn't whether Mazdas (or any other make of car for that matter) are unreliable or faulty, but how car manufacturers and their dealers treat customers who have legitimate rights under Australian consumer law.  Buying a car is the second largest purchase that most people will make, after a house.  However, the balance of power after purchase between manufacturer and purchaser is very lop-sided.  Purchasers are reliant on dealers to address legitimate problems that arise during warranty.  What has come to light here is a consistent flouting of consumer law by Mazda and its dealers, denial of consumer rights and even strong-arm tactics to force purchasers to accept compensation, leaving them $000s out of pocket.

 

The ACCC would not have taken action against Mazda unless it was forced to; like most regulatory agencies, it prefers to avoid court action by seeking legally-enforceable undertakings. 

 

I suspect its dealers that end up meat in sandwich in these cases. where the way our consumer law works it applies between buyer and seller(dealer). not with original maker. 

 

unfortunately the dealer has expectations of buyers who while cars are such an expensive purchase, seem to expect its like a blender they bought from kmart and can take back if not happy with, change their mind even on and get a full refund. and dealer then also has to deal with the makers who imagine woudl want quite a bit of rigour to establish genuine needs for replacement.

 

our consumer laws do protect but also are quite loose ended. in that there is no actual compulsion to do anything bar repair unless established as major. much of problem i suspect is that bit. establishing something is indeed major or even possibility of repairing where in some cases they are intermittent faults hard to put finger on let alone establish is even a fault ?

 

https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/repair-replace-refund#what-is-a-major-problem-

 

Repair, replace, refund

 

If a product or service you buy fails to meet a consumer guarantee, you have the right to ask for a repair, replacement or refund under the Australian Consumer Law. The remedy you're entitled to will depend on whether the issue is major or minor.

 

Repair, replacement or refund

You can ask a business for your preference of a free repair, replacement or refund, but you are not always entitled to one. For example, the consumer guarantees do not apply if you got what you asked for but simply changed your mind, found it cheaper somewhere else, decided you did not like the purchase or had no use for it.

See: Exceptions to consumer guarantees

If you have a minor problem with a product or service, the business can choose to give you a free repair instead of a replacement or refund. When you have a major problem with a product, you have the right to ask for your choice of a replacement or refund. For a major problem with a service, you can choose to receive compensation for the drop in value below the price paid, or a refund.

 

 

What is a major problem?

A product or good has a major problem when:

  • it has a problem that would have stopped someone from buying it if they’d known about it
  • it is significantly different from the sample or description
  • it is substantially unfit for its common purpose and can’t easily be fixed within a reasonable time
  • it doesn’t do what you asked for and can’t easily be fixed within a reasonable time; or
  • it is unsafe.

A service has a major problem when:

  • it has a problem that would have stopped someone from buying it if they’d known about it
  • it is substantially unfit for its common purpose and can’t easily be fixed within a reasonable time
  • it does not meet the specific purpose you asked for and cannot easily be fixed within a reasonable time
  • it creates an unsafe situation.

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I think all that is required is a bit of honesty and willingness to accept that consumers don't normally go to the bother of taking a product back for attention unless they genuinely believe it has a problem.  I don't know if you've read the details of the Mazda case, but many of the complaints revolve around cars losing power and becoming dangerous to drive.  Consumers were told there were no problems, only to have the issue repeat itself.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Bronal said:

I think all that is required is a bit of honesty and willingness to accept that consumers don't normally go to the bother of taking a product back for attention unless they genuinely believe it has a problem.  I don't know if you've read the details of the Mazda case, but many of the complaints revolve around cars losing power and becoming dangerous to drive.  Consumers were told there were no problems, only to have the issue repeat itself.

 

our consumer law doesn't allow for willingness to accept just because someone believes it has a problem. 

 

perhaps consider from a dealers perspective and how caught in the sandwich they are. so they have someone bring in a car with suggested power loss. all testing and checking in the garage shows nothing. what are they supposed to do apart form report it to mazda and tell the car owner sorry we have not been able to replicate the problem how are we supposed ot fix it if cant find anything wrong ? 

 

re loss of power there are SO many reasons this can happen in cars. subaru has an open lawsuit in the US and are deemed liable with fault or loss of power due to their CVTs that are known and established ot fail and cause issue. has there been a recall  ... none yet... is this unconscionable conduct ? 

 

http://www.lemonlawcase.com/problem-vehicles/subaru-continuously-variable-transmission/

 

now taking the above as a given.... people feel their CVTs need replacing as they cause power loss... and subaru is doing nothing about it apart from extending warranty....look what recall there has been by subaru recently ... both these lead to power loss too .... 

 

.https://www.caradvice.com.au/804083/subaru-australia-impreza-xv-recall/

 

Subaru is recalling 80,000 cars in Australia for two separate technical faults, however 25,000 of them have been included in both recall campaigns.

The recalls also affect 466,000 Subaru cars sold in the US with the same faults.

The first recall of 54,715 vehicles includes 25,672 Subaru Impreza sedans and hatches made from 2017 to 2019, and 29,043 examples of XV hatchbacks made from 2018 to 2019.

 

On these models “improper Engine Control Module programming” could cause an ignition coil short circuit.

“Under certain circumstances, the ignition coil may be energised longer than designed, when the engine is switched off, which could cause a short circuit or a fuse to blow, potentially causing restart failure or stalling,” says a Subaru Australia statement.

 

The second recall of 25,329 vehicles – 15,010 Subaru Impreza sedans and hatches made from 2017 to 2019, and 10,319 Subaru XV models made from 2018 to 2019 XV – has been issued due to a fault with the Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) valve.

The crankcase vapour recirculation device “may separate and allow engine oil to enter the combustion chamber”, says Subaru.

“If the PCV valve separates and oil enters the combustion chamber, excessive smoke may be released and the vehicle may experience an engine power loss,” the company said, adding that the “likelihood of these symptoms occurring is extremely low”.

 

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If I encounter a problem with my (under warranty) car that is serious enough, in my opinion, to take it back to the dealer for attention, then I expect to be believed, not asked to produce 'evidence'.  I would expect the dealer to run a complete set of checks and diagnostics on the car.  If no fault can be found, then I have to take the dealer's word...however, as has happened here, if the fault recurs then I would expect an escalation of the problem with the manufacturer.  Manufacturers should take these incidents seriously, as not only are their reputations at stake but also potentially legal liability if serious injury or death subsequently occurs.

 

Your example from Subaru proves nothing, except that faults can occur in all vehicles, and that at least Subaru did something about it.

 

You now seem to be acting as an apologist for the motor industry, especially dealers.  Dealing with and fixing faults is part and parcel of doing business.  If they can't handle that, then they shouldn't be in business.

 

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On 02/11/2019 at 11:24 AM, metal beat said:

Mazda tried similar “unconscionable conduct” when we owned a Mazda CX-9 between 2012 and 2015. 

 

many times I noticed when I drove my wife's CX-9 that it would lose power, rev high and be a little dangerous to drive.    Multiple times we complained to the Mazda dealer - each time they checked and said there was nothing wrong.   I just thought it must have been a crap auto gearbox.

 

  Then one month out of warranty on a service - guess what.  the dealer found the issue.  Some gearbox/transmission issue.   Then tried to charge us almost 5K to get it fixed as it was out of warranty.

 

Complained to Mazda in writing, threatened to take it to the ACCC and they agreed to replace the entire transmission but would not play for the dealer's labour costs.    Nice big argument with the dealer principle and they agreed to do it for around 1/3rd the cost.

 

  We just gave up - paid the few hundred $$ labour costs to get the transmission replaced and fitted.

 

  We sold the Mazda CX-9 within 4 weeks and will never buy another Mazda after their “unconscionable conduct” towards us as customers.

 

I hope the ACCC take Mazda to the cleaners and teaches them a lesson in customer relations and support.

 

   My wife has since bought a VW Tiguan for coming up to 4 years with zero problems - touch wood.

I think you’ll find that happens with all warranties with every manufacturer and dealership.....   Most provide a 5yr warranty, some even do X year free capped  servicing.   Once there’s a intermittent fault that gets reported during warranty,  most dealer service don’t have the resources to be able to diagnose the problem, worst still when a request for a item such as a auto transmission is made to the manufacturer, they need to prove that there’s something wrong; a full failure where  the vehicle isn’t  drivable is one and fits that category.  Otherwise they do not spend the time if the car passes the drivability test at the dealership.   Back in the 90s I drove a brand new Nissan Skyline Executive that stalled at the lights.....no one took it seriously,  at one dealership had there head mechanic in the car and duplicated the fault by doing a U turn at foot to the floor speed, his reaction was that’s why it stalls... BS!    Finally got a 2nd opinion and it got fixed by another dealership.   

Ive driven them all except VW which I will not touch becuase I know many who have had issues....  Even Toyota is no different, I drove my Wife’s Camry that was brand new out of the showroom to discover the heating would not work,  took it to several Toyota dealerships and no one would look at it even though it was brand new so the next week I drove it back to the point of purchase dealer who took a week to work it out but still couldn’t fix it,  at the end of the day that dealer was able to arrange for another brand new Camry...   Apparently the path for coolant in the engine wasn’t formed and was blocked, that engine now resides at there training centre for fault finding exercises..

From another thread we are about to update that Camry and seriously consider the Cx5 as an alternative as Mazda are the only ones using conventional auto transmission and not CVT.

Edited by Addicted to music

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John Cadogan made the point that Mazda still makes good vehicles and that this brouhaha should improve their warranty service. Multi-million dollar fines and high end bad PR are no joke in a small market like Australia, especially in the current motor vehicle sales slump.

 

Let's hope that this lawsuit spurs warranty service all 'round.

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I’m hoping Kia make a decent CVT, being as I’m about to buy one. 

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4 hours ago, GregWormald said:

 

Let's hope that this lawsuit spurs warranty service all 'round.

Agreed

 

I’m hoping that every car manufacturer learn from this, that the ACCC is serious about giving the customer a fare go and value for their money....  it really isn’t fair when the service dept have made several attempts and if a fault that puts there customer at risk happens again where they lose faith and confidence in the product and feel unsafe, it’s time for a full replacement or a full refund.    This is the reason why the ACCC has taken Mazda on.   Let’s face it, loosing power from takeoff is extremely dangerous, any issues that causes loss of power is a big deal on a motor vehicle,  I’m not a mechanic but I’m sure that they have diagnostics that logs stall faults in history and that the service personnel will be able to see these to confirmed what the client is reporting...     These days even the gear I work on I can see the entire fault history live on line anywhere in the world provided the product is set up and allowed over IT administration rights.   

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4 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

Agreed

 

I’m hoping that every car manufacturer learn from this, that the ACCC is serious about giving the customer a fare go and value for their money....  it really isn’t fair when the service dept have made several attempts and if a fault that puts there customer at risk happens again where they lose faith and confidence in the product and feel unsafe, it’s time for a full replacement or a full refund.    This is the reason why the ACCC has taken Mazda on.   Let’s face it, loosing power from takeoff is extremely dangerous, any issues that causes loss of power is a big deal on a motor vehicle,  I’m not a mechanic but I’m sure that they have diagnostics that logs stall faults in history and that the service personnel will be able to see these to confirmed what the client is reporting...     These days even the gear I work on I can see the entire fault history live on line anywhere in the world provided the product is set up and allowed over IT administration rights.   

I am a little more pragmatic here. 5th car company taken to courts in 4 years... has it changed anything. i dont see anything changed with the last 4 ? its only taking mazda to courts anyways ? they havent been condemned to death yet ? gee guilty before proved ? talk about no sense for justice ? 

 

in anycase point I am trying to make. obviously missed by quite a few is that there is something very crook overall with consumer rights and cars ? does this not hit anyone in the face like a mack truck at 100km an hour ? 

 

consumer rights are between owner and dealer... car makers sits behind the scenes? no care no responsibility ... dealer caught hand tied in the middle 

 

its a flaw in our consumer rights laws and protection. it leaves the gap where a dealer holding the can ...

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9 minutes ago, betty boop said:

consumer rights are between owner and dealer... car makers sits behind the scenes? no care no responsibility ... dealer caught hand tied in the middle ..

No different to the industry I’m in,  even when the manufacturer has come in direct, taken over the business from franchisees,  it’s still a regional issue between clients and us....   it sucks, what is worst is we have to be alert to find “work arounds “ to get the clients up and running....

 

How’s this;  they decided to sell a client who has been keen on having this $200k product...... arrive on the clients door step with the overseas qualified engineers to set it up,  they were here for a week, once set up they flew out of the country and no one here is trained....  A fault occurred and no one knows how to fix it and there’s no Manual supplied, if it wasn’t for a fault we would still have no access to service and parts manuals....  if defies all the QA and ISO specification we run on.....

 

When I had that issue with the 2003 Camry,  the dealer got no support from Toyota direct which there HQ is in Port Melb and there technical is in Altona, the dealer made the decision to replaced the vehicle and got no support,  they just supported them with parts, and that’s after they fill in the paperwork to claim warranty!  

What it saids is that manufacturers do not want to deal with the public direct,  that’s why car manufacturers appoint dealers...

 

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, betty boop said:

in anycase point I am trying to make. obviously missed by quite a few is that there is something very crook overall with consumer rights and cars ? does this not hit anyone in the face like a mack truck at 100km an hour ? 

 

consumer rights are between owner and dealer... car makers sits behind the scenes? no care no responsibility ... dealer caught hand tied in the middle 

 

its a flaw in our consumer rights laws and protection. it leaves the gap where a dealer holding the can ...

It's a basic tenet of Australian consumer law that the contract for sale is between the buyer and seller.  For example, if I buy an amp and it blows up during warranty without warning (and without any misuse), then my line of recourse lies with the dealer, not the distributor or manufacturer.  In this particular case, it would seem that the Mazda dealers concerned have got off quite lightly, as the ACCC appears to be going after Mazda Australia itself.  I don't know why this so, although the dealers were probably acting at the direction of Mazda and so Mazda may in this instance qualify as the seller.  The profit margin that dealers make is intended to cover them for all contingencies, ie for every car needing considerable warranty work there will be 20 or so that don't.  Dealers also receive subsidies for end-of-model or EOFY sales.

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11 minutes ago, Bronal said:

It's a basic tenet of Australian consumer law that the contract for sale is between the buyer and seller.  For example, if I buy an amp and it blows up during warranty without warning (and without any misuse), then my line of recourse lies with the dealer, not the distributor or manufacturer.  In this particular case, it would seem that the Mazda dealers concerned have got off quite lightly, as the ACCC appears to be going after Mazda Australia itself.  I don't know why this so, although the dealers were probably acting at the direction of Mazda and so Mazda may in this instance qualify as the seller.  The profit margin that dealers make is intended to cover them for all contingencies, ie for every car needing considerable warranty work there will be 20 or so that don't.  Dealers also receive subsidies for end-of-model or EOFY sales.

You would be amazed at how many people call a head office directly, expecting some sort of compensation. Thats why retailers/dealers exist, they get the margin, they deal with the complaints.

Plus, dealers can go back the manufacturer for warranty approved work. The bill doesnt come out of the dealerships pocket, it comes from the manufacturer.

 

 

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