Acoustic ceiling

[nzlowie]

Hi guys

Making progress on my listening room, garage conversion. Just about to do the ceiling and wanted the collective thoughts about options, option 1. Timber frame and gibrock with insulation on top.

Option 2. Suspended acustic tile ceiling. Details attached. I'm just thinking that everything I've read says the room should be as airtight as possible but surely with tiles there could be small gaps.

 

What do you think?

 

Cheers

C-Max-High-Performance-Acoustic-Ceiling-Tile-Data-Sheet.pdf

[Gee Emm]

It depends on what you are trying to achieve.

 

a. Reducing sound transmission from your room.

b. Improving sound inside your room.

 

More mass (without air gaps, and sealable openings to other rooms) will help you achieve 'a'.

Treating walls, floor & ceiling inside your room will help you achieve 'b'

If you want to achieve a & b, you will need to do both of the above.

 

The tile product talks about NRC for acoustic performance.

FYI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noise_reduction_coefficient

 

You need to consider anticipated volumes & type of music played.

Other doors, windows etc in the same room may also need treatment/consideration.

I expect it is going to cost more $  than you expect.

 

You haven't provided much info, to be able to provide you much info.

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by Gee Emm

[Luc]

I think you need to talk to the Boss if you can contact him. @Marc did a fantastic double garage conversion and I'm sure he could pass on some advice to you, there is a thread of his construction here. Also there was an earlier garage conversion before his done in Queensland, possibly on the Sunshine Coast or perhaps Gold Coast or maybe it was Brisbane. It's  got a thread of it's own and it's a stunning conversion with an acoustic hung ceiling and an air lock type door entry exit(i.e. two doors, open one and close it then open the other)

@Telecine  can you remember this thread Tele? Was long term member well known at the time. I'm sure it's in the forum covering things like this. He may have been a DIY maker of things as well, his nick escapes me.

[Telecine]

I don’t remember that one @Luc

[Luc]

1 minute ago, Telecine said:

I don’t remember that one @Luc

Hmm, I do and I was hoping you did too. I'm sure the member made amps or crossovers and this garage conversion was way way up there in quality. He'd removed the trusses above the garage and rebuilt them so the ceiling was higher. It's going to bug me now till I find it.

[Telecine]

Still don’t remember it @Luc

[Luc]

Just now, Telecine said:

Still don’t remember it

That's something  @djb would say to deflect from his fading memory and to see that your now actually using the same deflection...the years are catching up aren't they.

Ok. I'm going searching later tonight to find this, all by my lonesome it seems.

Never mind OP, the SNA family will eventually prevail and you'll know which direction to go.

[davewantsmoore]

48 minutes ago, Gee Emm said:

It depends on what you are trying to achieve.

 

a. Reducing sound transmission from your room.

b. Improving sound inside your room.

This.

 

1 hour ago, nzlowie said:

everything I've read says the room should be as airtight as possible

Only if you are trying to achieve "A".

 

If you are trying for "B", then it doesn't really matter.

[nzlowie]

Thanks guys, not worried about sound escaping more trying to keep outside noise out. (Just the inverse of keeping noise in really.)

Of course I'm trying to build a nice sounding room, happy to treat the room once complete but for now it the ceiling. Gibrock or these tiles?

[Luc]

43 minutes ago, nzlowie said:

Gibrock or these tiles?

'Gyprock' or Tiles.  Is it a trussed roof or perhaps a skillion? What's the existing ceiling height. If you use gyprock then there's several types you can use plus you'd have to have(or should have) acoustic insulation in there as well.

Need more info.

[nzlowie]

It's a truss roof but at this stage there isn't and structure to fix a ceiling, this is why I started looking at a suspended ceiling.

 

[davewantsmoore]

1 hour ago, nzlowie said:

Thanks guys, not worried about sound escaping more trying to keep outside noise out. (Just the inverse of keeping noise in really.)

Of course I'm trying to build a nice sounding room, happy to treat the room once complete but for now it the ceiling. Gibrock or these tiles?

 

OK, so forget the room being airtight.

 

So, if you were going to put something on the ceiling to "improve" the sound.... what you would put will depend on your speakers, and the room dimensions/layout.     ie. you need to figure out exactly what it is you're trying to "fix" before you can know what to do.

 

Quote

trying to keep outside noise out

Make sure you build a reasonable well sealed and massive ceiling..... assuming the outside noise is not extreme then it doesn't need to be "air tight".

 

As for "improve my SQ" .... see above. 

[Luc]

Found the member I was thinking of @Telecine  it was Jiri aka @jkn 'JiriAudio'.

 

Sadly all the photos of his garage transformation are gone but he had a truss roof and he cut them out and I think from memory he put in a cathedral ceiling and hung an acoustic tile ceiling from it. Was an utterly fantastic makeover. I don't know if he's still about.

 

There were some blasts from the past on the thread. Wonder where @cableconnoisseur is these days?

 

 

[nzlowie]

1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

 ie. you need to figure out exactly what it is you're trying to "fix" before you can know what to do.

What I trying to fix is there's a big gap between my room and the iron roof! At this stage nothing more, nothing less. Just thoughts on which of the 2 options might be best.

[Luc]

2 minutes ago, nzlowie said:

Just thoughts on which of the 2 options might be best.

It's a hard question. In my room makeover I opted for gyprock, this type>>> click and as you only want to know about your ceiling I wont mention the wall cladding in the room or the floor or door.

 

Tile roof against your tin roof but same air space as they are both trussed.

Acoustic batt insulation was installed and that combination was at the time the cheapest. I never seriously looked at a hung tiled ceiling.

This combined with the other treatments I did ended up giving me a room I can sit in and listen to music at reasonable levels or TV without the rest of the house complaining. They hear a muted dull unclear sound that as long as it's not ridiculously loud doesn't interfere with their TV or whatever they're doing. 

[LogicprObe]

The best option for starters is to pull the iron off and put the insulation blanket in and put it back on.

 

https://www.bunnings.com.au/earthwool-r1-8-75mm-12m2-space-blanket-under-metal-roof-insulation_p0810985

(other brands are available)

 

This will block most noise and heat from entering.

Then I would gyprock in the cathedral style thus making non parallel surfaces and try that.

If still unsatisfactory, then try acoustic treatments.

 

edit - why is that chicken wire in there?

It would be just like a snare drum!

Edited October 31, 2019 by LogicprObe

[davewantsmoore]

15 minutes ago, nzlowie said:

What I trying to fix is there's a big gap between my room and the iron roof! At this stage nothing more, nothing less. Just thoughts on which of the 2 options might be best.

Yes, I understand.

 

If you want to know which option will be best for the audio .... then it depends on speaker, placement a room dimensions.

 

 

If you want to know which will be best to "big gap between my room and the iron roof" .... then there will be no difference.     You could build any other sort of roof that a builder would build too .... and they'll all work fine.

 

[davewantsmoore]

7 minutes ago, LogicprObe said:

The best option for starters is to pull the iron off and put the insulation blanket in and put it back on.

 

https://www.bunnings.com.au/earthwool-r1-8-75mm-12m2-space-blanket-under-metal-roof-insulation_p0810985

(other brands are available)

 

This will block most noise and heat from entering.

Yep.

 

He should consult a builder, not an audio forum 

 

7 minutes ago, LogicprObe said:

Then I would gyprock in the cathedral style thus making non parallel surfaces and try that.

If he has highly directive speakers (which I think he might), and/or if the roof is already relatively high .... then I wouldn't bother, aside from aesthetics.

 

I think cathedral style would look nice.

 

7 minutes ago, LogicprObe said:

If still unsatisfactory, then try acoustic treatments.

It would be (much!) better to consider them as part of the ceiling construction, if needed .... rather than adding them on later.

 

Hence the "it depends" responses from me.

 

You could build bass traps, or abs/diffusion into the ceiling, if it was needed ..... depends on how high it is (which you can't see from the photo).... or if all the walls/floor is hard, etc. etc.

 

[LogicprObe]

 

Speaking of the iron roof..............I did half my garage roof in a day...........by myself!

(not bad for an old B!)

[Gee Emm]

Based on the info provided so far.

I would consider the following:

Remove tin roof, and lay sarking/thick batt then reapply roof.

Add batts between truss frames for added insualtion.

Line ceiling with 13mm plaster, cathedral style.

 

This is your 'best bang for buck' approach to all things.

 

Then, once the room is complete, you can treat any internal surface, including the cathedral ceiling.

I think an insulated cathedral ceiling will offer you a far better result than any tiles will, for likely much less money.

It will look a **** lot better as well.

[Al.M]

On 31/10/2019 at 2:39 PM, nzlowie said:

trying to keep outside noise out

In my last job we assessed a lot of quiet house plans to see if they complied with acoustic engineer design for planning amenity regulation to keep noise out from major road traffic, rail, aircraft flightpath and nearby industry.

 

If you are not living in a high noise background area there won’t be much noise to keep out. Most quiet to moderate noise suburbs have nothing to worry about and standard ceiling and insulation construction will be sufficient. 

 

A continuous and flush mounted and therefore more airtight, standard 10-13mm gyprock ceiling and 200mm of R4 insulation will address most external noise intrusion. As an extra luxury measure instead of standard gyprock use something like Soundcheck or Soundblock acoustic grade panel will be equal to using two layers of standard gyprock at half the weight and thickness. Also, box in the eaves as sound can easily enter under roof.

 

The T bar drop in C Max tile product is about 15mm thick acoustic grade but this is negated with many airgaps and loss of continuity on the T bar frames vs a 13mm flush seamless gyprock or better still Soundcheck ceiling.

 

If you are living within 100m of a major road you will be getting about 6dB(A) more than a quiet area, within 450m of a major road about 2dB(A) more than a quiet area which is insignificant. If there is lots of commercial or industry zoning within 100m you might get a further 6dB and if there is aircraft flightpath noise and rail then more again, which requires more special acoustic design and treatments.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Al.M

[Pim]

I have a cathedral ceiling in my new living room. Looks great, sounds horrible. See picture.

 

I'm looking to utilise our spare bedroom for audio and my plan is to fill the whole roof cavity with insulation and only cover the centre part with a large diffuser. Keep the sides open, covered with some kind of acoustically open material so that can work as a bass trap. I'm planning the same with the walls; only cover enough to make the room 'alive' enough and have holes in the gyprock instead of covering gyprock with absorbers where needed.

[Al.M]

4 hours ago, Pim said:

plan is to fill the whole roof cavity with insulation and only cover

Have you had acoustic engineer design input or is it total guesswork.?

 

What are you trying to achieve, what size room, other details, why do you think it is any different to a standard audio room where most people are able to make it work without such effort?

 

Why not seek proper acoustic advice and further treat the cathedral room to see if it can be made to work? Without acoustic advice, the room looks like there are too many untreated reflective surfaces, try throwing a large rug, place more large useful furniture to breakup reflections, curtains and drapes, acoustic panels and traps, position speakers 1m out and move them around, seated stereo position is too far from speakers and against the rear wall, research how to position speakers in listening triangle, furniture set in the way of left speakers, small speakers may be too small for such a large room etc.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Al.M

[jkn]

Here is link to my garage conversion (23 pages)

http://www.jirihifi.com/my_projects_music_room_01.htm

 

[Pim]

15 hours ago, Al.M said:

Have you had acoustic engineer design input or is it total guesswork.?

 

What are you trying to achieve, what size room, other details, why do you think it is any different to a standard audio room where most people are able to make it work without such effort?

 

Why not seek proper acoustic advice and further treat the cathedral room to see if it can be made to work? Without acoustic advice, the room looks like there are too many untreated reflective surfaces, try throwing a large rug, place more large useful furniture to breakup reflections, curtains and drapes, acoustic panels and traps, position speakers 1m out and move them around, seated stereo position is too far from speakers and against the rear wall, research how to position speakers in listening triangle, furniture set in the way of left speakers, small speakers may be too small for such a large room etc.

Hi Ai,

 

I had to read my own post again to make sure I had written it right. It turns out I did but since you mis-interpreted what I meant, so can others. I don't want to take over this thread so I'll try to keep it to what's relevant for this thread. So here goes.

 

The room in the picture isn't ever going to sound great unless I do more treatment than the missus will allow. It's much better now and there's more to come so it'll be alright some day but not as good as I want to achieve. Hence the spare bedroom;Plan B

 

The plan with the spare bedroom is where I want to fill the whole roof cavity with insulation and leave some gaps in the ceiling to use as bass traps. That's not really over the top because by the time I've put enough insulation in to keep the heat out underneath a tin roof there's not much extra to put in to fill it all the way up. Cost will be a few hundred extra dollars. It's not a big roof.

 

I agree, my plan is guesswork for now but there's some degree of logic involved (I think. Correct me if I'm wrong)

 

By having the roof and walls all filled with insulation you have effectively got all the absorption you need and more. By covering only certain parts of the walls and ceiling bit by bit, it's easy to find a point where it all just works. It's almost the same as covering gyprocked walls with absorption but in reverse. I'm hoping to do this in conjunction with a professional and I'm willing to pay for a few days work if that's what it takes to get things right. I've also looked into size ratios and I can get pretty close to what's considered 'ideal' for low frequencies by some pro who sent me a spread sheet a while ago.

 

The ceiling will be flat though. I've never read anything positive about cathedral ceilings and sound reproduction. There is a little bit about it in Jim Smith's Get Better Sound. He reckons the reflections off a raked ceiling are harder to work with than with a flat one. I don't know what the theory behind that is. All I know is, with a flat ceiling there's less surface that can reflect to that's a plus for a flat ceiling. Less work to do to fix unwanted reflections.

 

I hope this cleared things up a bit.

 

Cheers,

 

Pim