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Wide Soundstage - Joni Mitchell, Joan Baez


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I dug out a vinyl I haven't played for probably 30 years (given to me in 1980 by a past girlfriend) and put it on my modest setup to listen. (So this copy is nearly 40 years old...)

I nearly fell off the lounge when I heard a guitar on the title track track that seemed it was about a meter to the left of my speakers.

 

My setup is in a narrowish room, so there is only around 2.7 meters from the speaker fronts to my ears, and about 1.7 meters between the centers of the speakers.

Yet the sound-stage was at least a meter wider when the guitar popped out on the left and at least half that on the other side, making the stage even at such close distances about 3 meters (at 2.7 m listening distance).

 

I played it with an Ortofon 2M Blue and again with one of my recently potted Audio Technica AT95 freaks with the 3 x 7 elliptical stylus.

The sound-stage was even wider by a good margin with the AT95EX, believe it or not. I'm definitely buying a hyper-elliptical  for it now, I'm totally convinced. But what is going on?

 

So, the question is has anyone else listened to this record and noticed how wide the stage is on that track? What other records seem to have such wide sonics? I'm totally intrigued and in awe of what I had forgotten vinyl represents.

 

My gear is deliberately modest as I put this gear together with a strict budget goal in mind - secondhand KEF Concertos with a re-worked crossover that brings them alive, a secondhand NAD C370 amp, a secondhand ex-DJ Technics SL-1200 Mk2 (which I serviced on the weekend and gave a new set of low capacitance leads to), home-made ultra high quality interconnects all using Neutrik Rean connectors, plus a (yes) secondhand Pro-Ject Phono-Box S cartridge pre-amp, so I am certain its either not the kit and in the grooves, or perhaps the choice of vinyl-period kit makes it happen? 

 

How did the engineers get such a wide stage out of ancient vinyl, and have we lost the art today?

And if I become obsessed with wide sound stages, what cartridge should I consider next?

Edited by norman
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@norman My system tends to do this on every album I play. Dynamics and size of instruments vary for sure, but I tend to chase presence. I'm sure your SL1200 is contributing to this and it seems you have set up your speakers well. The mixing of the album also plays a big part.

One of the reasons I never left vinyl.

I have this and another 6 Mitchell LP's. "Blue" is also very good at presenting a wide soundstage:thumb:

Edited by Wimbo
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Wimbo -

12 hours ago, Wimbo said:

@norman

I have this and another 6 Mitchell LP's. "Blue" is also very good at presenting a wide soundstage:thumb:

I recall reading that Blue was voted by Rolling Stone (?) as the best female vocal album ever some years ago. I will have to track it down.

 

EDIT - Wikipedia: " Today, Blue is generally regarded by music critics as one of the greatest albums of all time; the way Mitchell's songwriting, compositions and voice all work together are frequent areas of praise. In January 2000, The New York Times chose Blue as one of the 25 albums that represented "turning points and pinnacles in 20th-century popular music". In 2012, Blue was rated the 30th best album ever made in Rolling Stone's list of the "500 Greatest Albums of All Time", the highest entry by a female artist."  Wow

 

I never got rid of my vinyls, I have around 800 from when I was in my teens and 20s until I started buying CDs in my 30s (I resisted them for as long as I could). The Technics experience has been a revelation for me.

Edited by norman
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Joni's Blue is a wonderful album, a must-have if you like her work. 

 

A nicely-mastered album with good attention to the soundstage is always a great listening experience.  On another forum topic discussing phasing issues I made a comment that I wouldn't expect a properly mastered album to have material that was out of phase.  A recording engineer replied that he often adjusts the phasing of instruments to create the illusion of a soundstage wider than the speakers. 

 

I'm imagining to have an instrument wide in the left, the right channel might have the same instrument lower in the mix and out of phase, so it cancels any spill-over on that side, thus emphasizing the other channel.  But I'm not an engineer, so it's only a guess.  Whatever method produces this effect, it was a revelation to me that it can be done. 

 

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19 hours ago, norman said:

I nearly fell off the lounge when I heard a guitar on the title track track that seemed it was about a meter to the left of my speakers

I just played the title track via Tidal, sorry don’t have it on vinyl, I get piano left side and guitar on the right, looking at the speakers, and nothing is outside the speakers, well not by much anyway. 
Just curious, was the guitar left or right side looking at the speakers?

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Giutar towards the end jumps out on the left, and I know my wiring is correct in terms of L & R.

 

My left speaker has nothing next to it, but the right is near a wall so I wonder if that causes an issue? If I ignore Mrs Norman I could move the speakers a fair bit to the left....especially as its in Mansland as she calls my basement....

Edited by norman
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I have just listened to the whole album again, but this time with my old but lovely Ortofon MC-3 Turbo (which my wife bought for me 20 years ago for over $300, and gagged on the cost back then).

 

My copy of Court and Spark has always had clicks and pops right from new on the entry to both sides. The Ortofon MC-3 basically silenced them with no top end loss, which neither the 2M Blue nor the potted AT95EX could do, it sounds wonderful. I had forgotten how lovely this cartridge is.

Edited by norman
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16 hours ago, norman said:

Giutar towards the end jumps out on the left, and I know my wiring is correct in terms of L & R.

 

My left speaker has nothing next to it, but the right is near a wall so I wonder if that causes an issue? If I ignore Mrs Norman I could move the speakers a fair bit to the left....especially as its in Mansland as she calls my basement....

Speaker imagining is dependent on sideways and front-back placement.  The sweet spot makes a difference, but it needs to be within an inch or two of that spot, which can be hard to find.  However, I understand that sometimes we need to make compromises beyond our control with the speaker placement!

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Moving speakers works.

8 hours ago, audiofeline said:

Speaker imagining is dependent on sideways and front-back placement.  The sweet spot makes a difference, but it needs to be within an inch or two of that spot, which can be hard to find.  However, I understand that sometimes we need to make compromises beyond our control with the speaker placement!

 

On my new copy of Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers Greatest Hits I disproved my theory that my sound stage is held back on one side by the presence of a wall. Thsi time around especially clear on "Even the Losers" the sound stage was a long way out past the right hand speaker.

I moved the right speaker just a fraction and toed the wall one in a tiny bit and Hey Presto! Instantly a bigger sound stage. I love it!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Still messing with speaker toe-in. I played Joan Baez album "Diamonds and Rust" tonight, just using an Ortofon 2M Blue, and ton the title track he soundstage was wider again on both sides, well out past each speaker by about 1 meter than on the Joni Mitchell I reported on a week or two ago. I messed about with toe-in and having the crossing point in front of the seat as I have read is best, and the soundstage narrowed. I then toed-out the speakers so they would cross behind my seat (if there wasn't a wall there) and blow me down - huge sound stage as described above. The pressing was a 1975 Australian A&M by Festival, just great. I have another copy of this album (my wife loves it) and it's a Canadian A&M (again 1975) and the sound is more laid back, quieter and generally not as good. Great to realise that old Oz pressings are right up there.

 

I'm buying a new Ortofon Quintet Red tomorrow, so I will report back on the soundstage for comparison. Hope I'm doing the right thing (trading in my suspension-collapsing Ortofon MC-3 Turbo and saving a wad on the price) and I'm not disappointed.

Edited by norman
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22 hours ago, michaelw said:

also try joni's wild things run fast...  her last great sounding album.

 

huge soundscapes.

And Hejiri  (personal fave)  .... listen for Jaco Pastouris's bass mixed in various positions across the soundstage on different tracks  

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So I bought an Ortofon Quintet Red, and it is better already than my old MC-3 Turbo and 2M Blue from the first drop. The soundstage seems effortlessly wider and also the depth has now become apparent. On Miles Davis' Kind of Blue side 2 a brushed snare is clearly further forward than other instruments, as is a ride cymbal later on in the same side. Recommended.

 

Now I need a less noisy phono stage than my Pro-ject Phonobox S...

Edited by norman
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Thanks for the thread mate (really should grab coffee - we’ve lost half our team atm so it’s legit insane).

 

Do you (or anyone here) know what is ‘the’ pressing to get of JM Blue? Or even know very well regarded other early pressing?

 

Plenty of VG on Discogs of the early US pressings for $US30 ish, and NMs for $US100-200. 
 

It’s been on my list for awhile to find a NM keeper of this album.

 

 

Edited by furtherpale
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42 minutes ago, furtherpale said:

Thanks for the thread mate (really should grab coffee - we’ve lost half our team atm so it’s legit insane).

 

Do you (or anyone here) know what is ‘the’ pressing to get of JM Blue? Or even a know very well regarded other wary one?

 

Plenty of VG on Discogs of the early US pressings for $US30 ish, and NMs for $US100-200. 
 

It’s been on my list for awhile to find a NM keeper of this album.

 

 

My copies mint and sounds great but it an Australian 80's pressing. 

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7 hours ago, furtherpale said:

Thanks for the thread mate (really should grab coffee - we’ve lost half our team atm so it’s legit insane).

 

Do you (or anyone here) know what is ‘the’ pressing to get of JM Blue? Or even know very well regarded other early pressing?

 

 

 

 

Hi there - Flick me a PM with your number and I will call you this week for a catch up.

 

I don't know about which JM Blue pressings are best - I only have Court and Spark and Mingus by her. The first one has a clicky intro to the title track that has always been there on my copy - I suspect my girlfriend from long ago played it first on a crappy Dansette or something first before she gave it to me and its just mistreatment damage.

 

Just in case you are interested, my copy of Court is an Asylum Record label, Australian pressed by WEA numbered 7E-1001  and MX172178 on the label. Aside from the clicks it is really nice sounding.

Mingus is also an  Asylum Record label, Australian pressed by WEA numbered 5E-505 and MX190176 on the label. This on is nice sounding too.

 

Look forward to hearing from you.

Norm

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 17/11/2019 at 8:16 AM, furtherpale said:

Thanks for the thread mate (really should grab coffee - we’ve lost half our team atm so it’s legit insane).

 

Do you (or anyone here) know what is ‘the’ pressing to get of JM Blue? Or even know very well regarded other early pressing?

 

Plenty of VG on Discogs of the early US pressings for $US30 ish, and NMs for $US100-200. 
 

It’s been on my list for awhile to find a NM keeper of this album.

 

 

The Kevin Gary/Steve Hoffman re-masters of both Blue & Court and Spark would be hard to beat, they sound excellent to me but I've not compared to original US pressings.  If buying these still sealed you're looking for them in a loose poly bag with the 'pressed at RTI' sticker on the bag, otherwise they'll have 'KPG&SH' initials in the run-out.  Here's a link to Blue on discogs  https://www.discogs.com/Joni-Mitchell-Blue/release/2571066

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the hoffmanns are easily beaten by a good original us copy, even early aus/nz pressings.

 

the early vinyl has a vitality and sense of space missing from the remasters, which while smooth, sound dull and lifeless with smothered highs and bloated midbass.

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