andyr Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 (edited) I'm spreading the word about an interesting (well, to me anyway!) tweak I picked up on vinyl asylum. Which I've never ever read about before, in 40 years of owning a sprung TT! Particularly addressed to you, @Tasebass - given you've taken your LP12s to the max. I'd be interested for any Ariston / Linn / Thorens owners to try this out - and I'd like to get your feedback; I'm going to do it as soon as I get my bass panels back from re-wiring and can listen again. The tweak is ... to orient each of the 3 springs so that the start of the spring - which you should find is at the same point as the end of the spring - points towards the spindle. Evidently, this reduces any side-to-side movement of the subchassis - ie. the 3 springs together, act in a more pistonic manner. The guy who wrote the VA article said this lowered the noise floor - which he was able to measure! Andy Edited October 27, 2019 by andyr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal beat Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 Andy, don't forget to sticky tape a very small piece of paper on the platter as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted October 27, 2019 Author Share Posted October 27, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, metal beat said: Andy, don't forget to sticky tape a very small piece of paper on the platter as well Sorry, Shane - don't know this one! But if you're not taking the p*ss ... please tell me: the dimensions which this piece of paper need to be the weight of the paper stock which it's cut from whether it includes a recycled component or not, and where exactly, do you affix it to the platter? Thanks, Andy Edited October 27, 2019 by andyr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal beat Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 12 minutes ago, andyr said: Sorry, Shane - don't know this one! But if you're not taking the p*ss ... please tell me: the dimensions which this piece of paper need to be the weight of the paper stock which it's cut from whether it includes a recycled component or not, and where exactly, do you affix it to the platter? Thanks, Andy Andy, me take the piss haha not this time, but please tell me if it works. https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=92165&start=30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted October 27, 2019 Author Share Posted October 27, 2019 11 minutes ago, metal beat said: Andy, me take the piss haha not this time, but please tell me if it works. https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=92165&start=30 Haha - nice one, Shane. But that dates from 3 years ago - had you had it stored in your 'Favourites'!!?? Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Full Range Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 I am going to put on my engineers hat on now Designers make allowances for such things 1) One way is - flattened spring ends - mostly used in industrial applications 2) The other way is to place rubber end pieces to make all small anomalies equal This photo is a set of Thorens springs and explains my point (2) above 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juzbear Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 Might have to give this a go. Given there is a good chance it makes no difference at all, but the placebo effect has a small but significant effect, at least for a short period, I will find my system sounds better. And it is free! If it actually makes a difference, all the better. The tinkering is half the fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter-C Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 Well, I spent quite a while adjusting mine ‘til I got a pistonic bounce straight up and down. So they should be oriented that way already [emoji6]Now I’m curious though. I’ll have to check it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Full Range Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 17 minutes ago, Peter-C said: I got a pistonic bounce straight up and down. Trouble is ! Springs on a turntable hardly bounce unless you are drumming on the TT with your hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wimbo Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 He's talking about springing the platter and I don't know what A is talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter-C Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 Trouble is ! Springs on a turntable hardly bounce unless you are drumming on the TT with your hand Correct! But it sounds better... Wish it didn’t, would save a lot of time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted October 27, 2019 Author Share Posted October 27, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Full Range said: I am going to put on my engineers hat on now Designers make allowances for such things 1) One way is - flattened spring ends - mostly used in industrial applications 2) The other way is to place rubber end pieces to make all small anomalies equal This photo is a set of Thorens springs and explains my point (2) above Linn springs also use grommets, FR - although they're at both ends of the spring (your Thorens springs seem only to have grommets at one end - unless your pic is wrong?). Yes, what you say is absolutely "engineer speak". IOW ... "we accounted for this in our design - so it can't possibly make any difference which way round the springs are". Perhaps that's the difference between an engineer ... and a scientist! Scientists experiment - whereas engineers merely design? It doesn't take much effort to experiment - just in case your engineer's assumptions are wrong ... maybe you should get off your a*se and do this? Andy Edited October 27, 2019 by andyr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted October 27, 2019 Author Share Posted October 27, 2019 1 hour ago, Peter-C said: Well, I spent quite a while adjusting mine ‘til I got a pistonic bounce straight up and down. So they should be oriented that way already Now I’m curious though. I’ll have to check it out. I'd be interested to know this, Peter. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted October 27, 2019 Author Share Posted October 27, 2019 1 hour ago, Juzbear said: Might have to give this a go. Given there is a good chance it makes no difference at all, but the placebo effect has a small but significant effect, at least for a short period, I will find my system sounds better. And it is free! If it actually makes a difference, all the better. Correct, Juz! As you say ... there's a good chance it makes no difference at all. But it actually might - so there's a good reason to try it out. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted October 27, 2019 Author Share Posted October 27, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Full Range said: Trouble is ! Springs on a turntable hardly bounce unless you are drumming on the TT with your hand You're obviously not a Linn owner, FR. The whole ethos about a Linn TT is that you need to get it set up by a qualified Linn tech ... or it's not producing its best sound. And 'pistonic bounce' is the secret of the optimum Linn sound. Andy Edited October 27, 2019 by andyr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham D Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 I refurbish turntables as a hobby and have always positioned the springs as described with the ends oriented towards the spindle bearing during initial assembly simply because that is what the service manual advises. However in tweaking for that perfect bounce one or all of the springs usually end up being rotated from that position. The springs on most of these sprung turntables ( including Linn LP 12s ) are not perfectly square and often need to be rotated to centralise the armboard . As to whether it makes any difference to the sound I cant say I've noticed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted October 27, 2019 Author Share Posted October 27, 2019 47 minutes ago, Wimbo said: He's talking about springing the platter and I don't know what A is talking about. Que? If you've ever studied a Linn spring W, you'd see that it is an expanding spiral. So obviously ... the wire that forms the spring has a start point (which, for my springs anyway, is on the same side as the end point of the spiral). The VA post I quoted was simply about making sure that the start point of the springs were all pointing towards the spindle. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted October 27, 2019 Author Share Posted October 27, 2019 13 minutes ago, Graham D said: I refurbish turntables as a hobby and have always positioned the springs as described with the ends oriented towards the spindle bearing during initial assembly simply because that is what the service manual advises. However in tweaking for that perfect bounce one or all of the springs usually end up being rotated from that position. The springs on most of these sprung turntables ( including Linn LP 12s ) are not perfectly square and often need to be rotated to centralise the armboard . Interesting to hear, Graham. I hadn't picked up that the LP12 service manual advises springs to be oriented that way. (Obviously, given FR's post ... the Thorens service manual doesn't include that level of instructions. ) But interesting that you then need to alter the alignment, to achieve perfect 'bounce'. 16 minutes ago, Graham D said: As to whether it makes any difference to the sound I cant say I've noticed it. Are you saying that you haven't noticed whether the sound you get after you've achieved "correct spring rotation to centralise the armboard " is any better than when you had all the spring-starts pointing towards the spindle? (If so ... what's the point of going to all the effort of centralising the armboard?) You are making me think there's an unexpected benefit of my 'SkeletaLinn' design - where there is no sub-platter hanging from a top-plate ... simply a chassis resting on 3 springs. As I posted, I will be aligning the spring-starts towards the spindle - to see how it changes the sound - just as soon as I get my speakers back together. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 http://ukhhsoc.torrens.org/makers/Linn/LP12/Setup_Manual.pdf if you look at step28, 29, 30. It discussed how to mount the springs and rubber grommets. What it emphasis is that when mounting the bolt it must sit centred inside the grommet..... it’s also discussed when you bounce the platter should freely move in any direction by 1/8th of an inch and that the platter must be parallel to the base and not the aluminium plate that sags in the centre? .... it doesn’t say to adjust the spring tension so it piston only up and down..... this I read somewhere as a recommendation,.... even if you got it to piston or bounce only up and down, how many bounces do you declare that it’s good enough.... because at a certain stage it’s likely to go all over the place as it looses energy when it comes to rest..... this is a given due to the nature of the set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasebass Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 (edited) On 27/10/2019 at 6:39 PM, andyr said: IParticularly addressed to you, @Tasebass - given you've taken your LP12s to the max. having spent time with both Harry York and Peter Swain on all aspects of Sondek set up and with the Deck singing as well as it is at the moment I have no interest at all of messing around with spring orientation ( or anything else for that matter ) for what might be absolutely Jack shite difference whatsoever.... Go for your life Andy...no doubt you will report back... all the best Tase. Edited October 29, 2019 by Tasebass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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