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Integrating Two Channel and Home Theatre AV 5.1


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Hi All

 

I am seeking some advice on integrating a two channel hifi with a 5.1 home theatre.  I have an SVS SB-2000 which has a single RCA pair in/LFE.  My Pre-Amp has 2 RCA out and an XLR out and the ability to run all 3 at the same time I believe. Currently I am running the sub from my Yamaha RX-A3040 via the LFE and the pre's ext-pre for 5.1 but would like to integrate the sub into my two channel hifi while maintaining my ability to have it work within the 5.1 AV setup.  I am after some suggestions in regards to best accomodating this, if its at all possible,

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Subwoofer config.

image.png.4068ffa5705ded42325dc21e91b11daa.png

 

Pre-amp config.
 

image.png.6fa716f64af919bda65d823753333978.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by AlurkA
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To do this properly, you should be using a DSP in a config like this

image.png.0117a43a2effa8783fe3bd8667cd5302.png

This is an example of a setup where the mains and subs are shared between stereo and home theatre setups..  I was not sure whether you have separate mains or you want to share the mains.  Assume share.

 

For HT, feed AVR L+R to preamp which would then feed via HT bypass to the power amp and mains.  If there is no HT bypass, then note volume setting on preamp that provides same loudness for HT playback.   The sub is fed to the DSP which feeds the subs.

 

For stereo, and assuming your setup that has simultaneous dual stereo outputs, you need to feed the second pair of L+R  to be summed by the DSP less 6 dB (so that it is same loudness) which then feeds the subs.  

 

In a single sub situation, it is possible to use an RCA switch and get the sub to do the summing, but that is not ideal.  The DSP gives you more flexibility should you choose to run more than 1 sub and even run DSP for stereo playback.

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59 minutes ago, AlurkA said:

Hi All

 

I am seeking some advice on integrating a two channel hifi with a 5.1 home theatre.  I have an SVS SB-2000 which has a single RCA pair in/LFE.  My Pre-Amp has 2 RCA out and an XLR out and the ability to run all 3 at the same time I believe. Currently I am running the sub from my Yamaha RX-A3040 via the LFE and the pre's ext-pre for 5.1 but would like to integrate the sub into my two channel hifi while maintaining my ability to have it work within the 5.1 AV setup.  I am after some suggestions in regards to best accomodating this, if its at all possible,

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Subwoofer config.

image.png.4068ffa5705ded42325dc21e91b11daa.png

 

Pre-amp config.
 

image.png.6fa716f64af919bda65d823753333978.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

one suggestion... as i do.. get two subs... one you integrated with 2ch so it makes your mains full range... you then use that combo with AV as well your av receiver in eq will just see your mains as a full range... and your 2nd sub you run as LFE... done...  best of both worlds....

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@Snoopy8 Thank you for the input.  What DSP do you use for the task of integrating the sub(s) in your configuration and what options are out there?  (I have never looked into this and do not really know where to start).

 

@betty boop Thanks for the reply.  The WAF atm would be an issue in terms of two subs in the lounge.....as much as I would like it ? It all about the "compromise".

 

Cheers

 

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13 minutes ago, AlurkA said:

@Snoopy8 Thank you for the input.  What DSP do you use for the task of integrating the sub(s) in your configuration and what options are out there?  (I have never looked into this and do not really know where to start).

 

@betty boop Thanks for the reply.  The WAF atm would be an issue in terms of two subs in the lounge.....as much as I would like it ? It all about the "compromise".

 

Cheers

 

All with you there, positioning one sub taking in optimum not only for room but also wAf is challenge enough for most ... let alone doing that for 2 subs !!

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1 hour ago, AlurkA said:

@Snoopy8 Thank you for the input.  What DSP do you use for the task of integrating the sub(s) in your configuration and what options are out there?  (I have never looked into this and do not really know where to start).

The miniDSP 2x4 HD is popular on forum but unless your preamp has a sub out, cannot be used (You need 3 inputs). Hence

https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-4x10-hd

I use a Behringer DCX 2496

 

I put the diagram to stimulate your thinking and give you ideas on what is possible. Is this what you want? Is adding a DSP too hard?  It complicates the setup but you get best of both worlds. 

 

P/s I managed to sneak in a SB13U in place of a SB2000 and ended keeping both!

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1 hour ago, Snoopy8 said:

The miniDSP 2x4 HD is popular on forum but unless your preamp has a sub out, cannot be used (You need 3 inputs). Hence

https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-4x10-hd

I use a Behringer DCX 2496

 

I put the diagram to stimulate your thinking and give you ideas on what is possible. Is this what you want? Is adding a DSP too hard?  It complicates the setup but you get best of both worlds. 

 

P/s I managed to sneak in a SB13U in place of a SB2000 and ended keeping both!

Yeh, its got me thinking.  I dont have a sub out on my pre.  There were a couple of DSP tuned rooms at the hifi show on Saturday that I visited and was kinda liking what they were doing.  Linn and one other that was integrating subs I cant remember the name of atm.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, AlurkA said:

Yeh, its got me thinking.  I dont have a sub out on my pre.  There were a couple of DSP tuned rooms at the hifi show on Saturday that I visited and was kinda liking what they were doing.  Linn and one other that was integrating subs I cant remember the name of atm.

The other one was probably DEQX which takes things further and cost a lot more.  The Kii Three has built in DSP which makes them sound fantastic. Also, the Krix HT demo was powered by Anthem Room Correction Genesis running off a MRX 1120. Many of the other rooms could certainly have done with some DSP also.  

 

Note that DSP is not a magic wand and ideally room should be acoustically treated first. DSP is especially useful for integrating one sub or more into a stereo setup.

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When I was listening to the Kii, they were playing it quite loud, felt they were yelling at me.  Went back when ATC was happening and it was much nicer.  Have been looking at DEQX...pricey indeed.  Unfortunately my room is a living space, no dedicated listening.  Open plan as well.  I do have a cathedral ceiling of sorts above where my hifi gear is but treating it would be difficult to get through the WAF test.  Doesnt sound bad at the moment, its just this damn never ending quest for better sound that bites.

 

Given I have a sub I was thinking of ways to incorporate it into the scheme of things other than run a seperate set of RCA's that dangle when not in use ?

 

 

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Is it possible to configure something like this?  Admittedly only a single channel runs from the Pre to the sub for 2 channel and its a hack but is it going to break anything having the sub connected to disparate devices that are both potentially active when AV is running?

 

image.thumb.png.01cf1f8caabe61ccb8190e5d213c1138.png

 

 

 

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53 minutes ago, AlurkA said:

Is it possible to configure something like this?  Admittedly only a single channel runs from the Pre to the sub for 2 channel and its a hack but is it going to break anything having the sub connected to disparate devices that are both potentially active when AV is running?

 

image.thumb.png.01cf1f8caabe61ccb8190e5d213c1138.png

 

You do realise that you are getting part of the bass, from one channel only.  I would not hook it that way, potentially can get feedback noise. 

 

By the way, many of us have systems in shared rooms. Mine is in open plan family room with high ceilings and lots of glass. Have heavy curtains covering glass sliding doors and can place temporary absorption panels on windows while playing music. No bass traps of course. And DSP can help, with both HT and stereo.

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5 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

The miniDSP 2x4 HD is popular on forum but unless your preamp has a sub out, cannot be used (You need 3 inputs). Hence

https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-4x10-hd

This looks like a good potential solution where one would switch between the two analog unbalanced RCA inputs I presume.

If so one of these remotes might be wanted too: https://www.minidsp.com/products/accessories/ir-remote

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I have been through many iterations of thinking on this, I was in the same boat as you. I have also sought advice from more experienced members such as snoopy and betty. I'll outline what I think is the best solution.

 

1/. 2ch Source to preamp.

 

2/. Preamp to XLR input on a power amp that has both XLR and RCA (XLR must be true balanced).

 

3/. Sub out from preamp to Line Level in of sub (s)

 

3/. Dual or mono sub out from receiver or prepro to LFE in of sub (s).

 

4/. Preout L & R of receiver/prepro to HT bypass input of pre amp.

 

5/. When playing 2ch, the AVR is not turned on. A dedicated pathway exists from source to preamp to poweramp, with subs active via preamp sub outs to Line Level in.

 

*** For this, select XLR switch on power amp.

 

6/. When watching movies, the pathway becomes AVR/prepro to preamp HT bypass to poweramp, with subs active via avr/prepro sub out to LFE in. This is all bass managed as usual.

 

*** For this, select RCA switch on power amp.

 

7/. So - now we have 2ch sources with a dedicated pathway and full range subs. But there is the issue of bass management. You have 4 options here:

 

A/. Manually adjust sub cross over dial to low pass frequency of choice when listening ro 2ch. Revert to full range LFE when watching HT.

 

B/. Get a sub like PB 3000 which has crossover presets that you can adjust via a remote app, depending on 2ch or HT. No manual adjustments of the x-over dial on subs required.

 

C/. Get a sub like the REL which has 'sticky' cross over settings only for line level in but automatically applies full range LFE lowpass for LFE in - thus keeping the x-over dial setting only for line level in. The SVS unfortunately applies the xover dial setting to both LFE in and line level in.

 

D/. Get a preamp with a crossover built in, such as the NAD C 658.

 

My preferred option would be D, as I love the Bluesound app and also because it does Dirac Live - but mainly because I only listen to streamed sources. It is a 'better Node 2i'.

 

This I believe is the best solution IMHO for integrating 2ch and HT, as it keeps a dedicated pathway for 2ch + subs + crossover and you can switch to 2ch and HT by switching to RCA or XLR on the amp itself - *and* have bass management across the board.

 

For anyone starting out, I'd give these points proper consideration before buying gear for future upgradeability.

 

Good luck default_smile.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, MaxPlumage said:

I have been through many iterations of thinking on this, I was in the same boat as you. I have also sought advice from more experienced members such as snoopy and betty. I'll outline what I think is the best solution.

 

1/. 2ch Source to preamp.

 

2/. Preamp to XLR input on a power amp that has both XLR and RCA (XLR must be true balanced).

 

3/. Sub out from preamp to Line Level in of sub (s)

 

3/. Dual or mono sub out from receiver or prepro to LFE in of sub (s).

 

4/. Preout L & R of receiver/prepro to HT bypass input of pre amp.

 

5/. When playing 2ch, the AVR is not turned on. A dedicated pathway exists from source to preamp to poweramp, with subs active via preamp sub outs to Line Level in.

 

*** For this, select XLR switch on power amp.

 

6/. When watching movies, the pathway becomes AVR/prepro to preamp HT bypass to poweramp, with subs active via avr/prepro sub out to LFE in. This is all bass managed as usual.

 

*** For this, select RCA switch on power amp.

 

7/. So - now we have 2ch sources with a dedicated pathway and full range subs. But there is the issue of bass management. You have 4 options here:

 

A/. Manually adjust sub cross over dial to low pass frequency of choice when listening ro 2ch. Revert to full range LFE when watching HT.

 

B/. Get a sub like PB 3000 which has crossover presets that you can adjust via a remote app, depending on 2ch or HT. No manual adjustments of the x-over dial on subs required.

 

C/. Get a sub like the REL which has 'sticky' cross over settings only for line level in but automatically applies full range LFE lowpass for LFE in - thus keeping the x-over dial setting only for line level in. The SVS unfortunately applies the xover dial setting to both LFE in and line level in.

 

D/. Get a preamp with a crossover built in, such as the NAD C 658.

 

My preferred option would be D, as I love the Bluesound app and also because it does Dirac Live - but mainly because I only listen to streamed sources. It is a 'better Node 2i'.

 

This I believe is the best solution IMHO for integrating 2ch and HT, as it keeps a dedicated pathway for 2ch + subs + crossover and you can switch to 2ch and HT by switching to RCA or XLR on the amp itself - *and* have bass management across the board.

 

For anyone starting out, I'd give these points proper consideration before buying gear for future upgradeability.

 

Good luck default_smile.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@MaxPlumageMany thanks for the detailed explanation.  My Pre does allow me to operate this way and switch between outputs.  The Sub is the only issue with a single set of RCA/LFE.  I guess a simple cable based splitter would sort this out.

 

Cheers

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@MaxPlumageMany thanks for the detailed explanation.  My Pre does allow me to operate this way and switch between outputs.  The Sub is the only issue with a single set of RCA/LFE.  I guess a simple cable based splitter would sort this out.
 
Cheers
Not an issue as you would have both LFE and line level inputs engaged.

Preamp sub out to line level in.

AVR sub out to LFE in.

Adjust cross over depending on input.

Switch amp to xlr or rca depending on input.

Don't use both sources at same time!

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5 hours ago, MaxPlumage said:

Not an issue as you would have both LFE and line level inputs engaged.

Preamp sub out to line level in.

Unless I'm missing something the pre-amp in question does not have a sub out line level. It has a Left and Right out line level. Actually it seems to have two or three working simultaneously.

Edited by Satanica
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@AlurkA If you think your main speakers are up to it and I haven't got this all wrong you could do the following.
You could mix the LFE and do Bass Management routing into the Left & Right speakers with your AVR.
I think you would set SUB = OFF and Left & Right = MAIN + LFE or something to do this.
You would connect your AVR not from the Sub output but from the Left & Right output into the Left & Right input on your pre-amp (External Pre Inputs).
From the pre-amp Left & Right line outputs to the Left & Right line inputs of the subwoofer.
Turn the crossover on your subwoofer and set it to the value you set in your AVR for bass management (usually 80Hz).

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2 hours ago, Satanica said:

@AlurkA If you think your main speakers are up to it and I haven't got this all wrong you could do the following.
You could mix the LFE and do Bass Management routing into the Left & Right speakers with your AVR.
I think you would set SUB = OFF and Left & Right = MAIN + LFE or something to do this.
You would connect your AVR not from the Sub output but from the Left & Right output into the Left & Right input on your pre-amp (External Pre Inputs).
From the pre-amp Left & Right line outputs to the Left & Right line inputs of the subwoofer.
Turn the crossover on your subwoofer and set it to the value you set in your AVR for bass management (usually 80Hz).

@Satanica My speakers are Dyn Contour S5.4, I am not certain what options the RX-A3040 gives me I know there is a large speaker configuration in the menu somewhere.

 

May have hit a snag however using the pre as the switch and trying to split things up using XLR V RCA..  2 channel is now running completely through XLR from source to power.  Given I can only run RCA to the sub (with LFE and L+R Pre-Amp line out and Y RCA splitter) I need to select all on the Pre to get a signal to the sub.  This becomes a problem when AV is required as I potentially have signals coming from the pre (line out L+R) and the receiver (LFE) ....I think....  Given the Pre has 2 XLR out...XLR to RCA conversion ? ..maybe.

 

I suspect for me the @Satanica approach is the solution given current hardware and ditch LFE altogether and run the sub from the Pre-Amp line out and a 5.0 AV config with the sub linked in via the L+R mains.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, AlurkA said:

I suspect for me the @Satanica approach is the solution given current hardware and ditch LFE altogether and run the sub from the Pre-Amp line out and a 5.0 AV config with the sub linked in via the L+R mains.

I think it could work and I've been doing 4.0 with the LFE channel mixed into my L & R for some time now with 2 subwoofers crossed over at 80Hz from the L & R Mains signal.

Also, if you can find a setting in your AVR for LFE filter or something like that then set to 120Hz or lower.

You will find the odd movie (e.g. original Star Wars trilogy on bluray) have some garbage in the LFE channel higher up in frequency which will come through in the L & R Mains if you mix the LFE into them.

You won't hear this garbage when using a dedicated LFE channel into a subwoofer because it's so high in frequency that sub-woofers won't produce it but L & R Mains can and will.

 

https://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/Assets/US/Doc/Professional/38_LFE.pdf

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I think it could work and I've been doing 4.0 with the LFE channel mixed into my L & R for some time now with 2 subwoofers crossed over at 80Hz from the L & R Mains signal.
Also, if you can find a setting in your AVR for LFE filter or something like that then set to 120Hz or lower.
You will find the odd movie (e.g. original Star Wars trilogy on bluray) have some garbage in the LFE channel higher up in frequency which will come through in the L & R Mains if you mix the LFE into them.
You won't hear this garbage when using a dedicated LFE channel into a subwoofer because it's so high in frequency that sub-woofers won't produce it but L & R Mains can and will.
 
https://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/Assets/US/Doc/Professional/38_LFE.pdf
Good approach mate. Just some thoughts:

1/. The LFE low pass filter in the AVR must *not* be changed to anything lesser than 120Hz. This dedicated track on discs contains low frequency information up to 120Hz, so you will be discarding information if you set it below the threshold.


2/. If you set the the subs to 80Hz via the dial, you will also lose information when movie tracks containing 120Hz information for LFE comes through.



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4 hours ago, MaxPlumage said:

Good approach mate.

Thanks.

 

4 hours ago, MaxPlumage said:

1/. The LFE low pass filter in the AVR must *not* be changed to anything lesser than 120Hz. This dedicated track on discs contains low frequency information up to 120Hz, so you will be discarding information if you set it below the threshold.

I don't have anything concrete as far as reference but I was under the impression than most modern mixes of the LFE .1 channel roll-off from about 80Hz to 120hz rather than just brick walling at 120Hz. Even so if one was to discard some of the information above 80Hz I don't think that's a too big a sin as those frequencies may start to be located and not really that much fun to listen to anyway. I think the "fun" LFE .1 information is probably in the 20-50Hz range.

 

4 hours ago, MaxPlumage said:

2/. If you set the the subs to 80Hz via the dial, you will also lose information when movie tracks containing 120Hz information for LFE comes through.

Yes you could lose some of the LFE .1 fequencies via the subwoofer as it rolls off from 80Hz up or whatever the crossover the subwoofer is set to. But because the L & R Mains will still contain all of the LFE .1 information and utilising the setup outlined those frequencies should at least somewhat be produced by the L & R Mains.

Edited by Satanica
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Yes you could lose some of the LFE .1 fequencies via the subwoofer as it rolls off from 80Hz up or whatever the crossover the subwoofer is set to. But because the L & R Mains will still contain all of the LFE .1 information and utilising the setup outlined those frequencies should at least somewhat be produced by the L & R Mains.
Here's the closest thing to an authoritative answer, direct from Audyssey/Chris:

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212345363-LPF-on-LFE

IMHO, do not change it.
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