tubularbells Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 Im giving serious thought to investing heavily into the room rather than upgrading tubes, cables, amps etc. Product im looking at is this. https://awave.com.au/shop/accessories/acoustic-treatment/realtraps-megatrap-pair/ This is to treat a fairly nasty peak below 50hz I reckon i'll need at least 4 pair to stack into the problem corners here. And here (moving the record racks across to expose the corner). Opposite end of the room is open so am not hearing much bass build up there Problem is treating just these 2 corners is just shy of $3,500 so id be expecting it to do wonders but unfortunately dont think i'll be able to return them if they do not work as expected. Im also wondering whether simply EQing would be a cheaper, more elegant solution. Comments/suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 53 minutes ago, Tubularbells said: Comments/suggestions? are there any local providers that can come actually demonstrate the difference can bring. at $3.5k it should be night and day difference is what i would be hoping. personally im not convinced on the traps you have especially below 50hz in what i have experienced traps would need to be HUGE ! so hue be impractical for your room. the trap you have i am not really sure what principle they operate on but seems like pretty thin and all air. do they do anything ? I remember us moving the one you had into one of the corners you showed in the pics above and I dont recall anything happening ? perhaps 3 more might make the benefit more apparent but will also 3 times as much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 56 minutes ago, Tubularbells said: Im giving serious thought to investing heavily into the room rather than upgrading tubes, cables, amps etc. Product im looking at is this. https://awave.com.au/shop/accessories/acoustic-treatment/realtraps-megatrap-pair/ if 50hz is where aiming at these seem to drop off pretty strongly past 80hz ? https://realtraps.com/p_megatraps.htm id suggest they are are more aimed at 80-150hz ? if am reading that correctly ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattjtaylor2809 Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 If going down the DIY road, what are good quality cheap foam corner traps I could buy? Do they come in white or just black/grey? I have bought some Artnovion diffusers, absorbers & x2 bass traps (Greys online advertised the current model bass traps & sent me the older models , we're in discussions!)....but with a 5X7 room, I'm going to need more corner treatment than just x1 bass trap in each corner. Cheers Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tubularbells Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 1 minute ago, betty boop said: if 50hz is where aiming at these seem to drop off pretty strongly past 80hz ? https://realtraps.com/p_megatraps.htm id suggest they are are more aimed at 80-150hz ? if am reading that correctly ? Yeah they do drop but there apparently one of the best for treating low end bass issues. Also sent off for advice from GIK acoustics in the US (they have a free advice form) as these guys have a product called Scopus that is tuned for 40hz so that might work better however ii cannot find any GIK dealers here in Aus. https://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-scopus-tuned-bass-trap-t40/ i agree also that i dont want to blow a ton of cash only to find a product either doesnt work or is only somewhat effective. Its a crapshoot it seems. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tubularbells Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 Just now, mattjtaylor2809 said: If going down the DIY road, what are good quality cheap foam corner traps I could buy? Do they come in white or just black/grey? I have bought some Artnovion diffusers, absorbers & x2 bass traps (Greys online advertised the current model bass traps & sent me the older models , we're in discussions!)....but with a 5X7 room, I'm going to need more corner treatment than just x1 bass trap in each corner. Cheers Matt Forget about foam for any effective treatment below 100hz. The bass will simply pass through them as if they weren't there. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frednork Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Tubularbells said: Problem is treating just these 2 corners is just shy of $3,500 so id be expecting it to do wonders but unfortunately dont think i'll be able to return them if they do not work as expected. Im also wondering whether simply EQing would be a cheaper, more elegant solution. Comments/suggestions? Have been thinking about this a bit. Have no doubt these would help but 4 per side would be better so $7k, not to mention it might be difficult to fit them in. Question is how much help they provide? Considering the problem area is pretty much wholly below 100Hz I wonder whether an active solution would be much more effective and reduce the space taken up. This thread has some good ideas The Bag end unit has the benefit of using the live sound of the room to generate a cancelling signal so is always accurate in that sense , but may be hard to source and at new price if a guaranteed solution might be acceptable but if not you will loose 50% of the value, I think the MSO solution may end up working better and be much less risky and cheaper to implement. So you'd need a mini dsp and a couple of small subs (often available on SNA) and the software sets up the curve for the subs and would definitely reduce the 48Hz and any other peak (in the bass region as you wanted). If it ends up you dont like the sound of it, you just resell the dsp and subs. MSO does not affect the output of the mains so your analogue setup is not affected. Happy to assist in setting this up. Once setup, it is set and forget unless you change the room / speaker positions significantly. Maybe the first thing to try is to stuff as much trapping material as you can beg borrow or steal to see if you can get close to what you need (without the room looking like an insane asylum) with a passive solution. I have some traps, (some decent and some less so) you can borrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frednork Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 Which side are you favouring to put the speakers on? If it is along the shorter wall then you still have a lot of scope with chair and speaker placement to reduce some of the peaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scumbag Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 (edited) I now have this unit rather than the Bagend - https://www.psiaudio.swiss/avaa-c20-active-bass-trap/ - this is a fully automated unit that uses a different principle to the Bagend. The AVAA creates an acoustic resistance at the frequency of the mode whereas the Bagend uses cancellation. The AVAA is set and forget and looks cool but it is expensive. I have not gotten around to done comparison measurements for the AVAA. Personally I prefer the AVAA (well I would say that wouldn't I) as they really do clean up bass with zero artifacts. The AVAA is an expensive solution. You can get similar results on a fraction of the budget of these units for sure. If you are loaded and you have a tight space and WAF is a big deal then they are worth considering. Edited October 16, 2019 by scumbag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtf Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 10 hours ago, Chanh said: In my case, I sent out architectural shop-drawings of my designated audio outer building and long with all electronics placements as well as the sweet listening position. I also attached photos captured of the current setup, each view of the four walls. I received two quotations from two different designers. One was $17.5k and the others was $14.5k. I only order portion of one design and hoping to diy the rest to save funds. That particular designer was fine with my decision. So I spent $5.5k for 2 corners at front wall, 4 fulltrap. 2 max trap for rear side walls, and 4 flexifusers for rear wall. For ceiling and sidewalk first point of reflections I plan using the existing..... for ceiling, I plan to diy some big panels to hang up at front and on top of listening position. That is my plan in a nutshells...., your constructive input is welcomed. I’ve made up some more panels if you want to experiment with this style again Chanh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccuTidal Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Thanks @mtf. They look like off the shelves there mate. Probably giving a go with what I got atm. I would be more interested in where you sourced the covering fabric? cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtf Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Just now, Chanh said: Thanks @mtf. They look like off the shelves there mate. Probably giving a go with what I got atm. I would be more interested in where you sourced the covering fabric? cheers. I got it from Spotlight mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccuTidal Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 29 minutes ago, mtf said: I got it from Spotlight mate. I liked that...! Sounds affordable.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tubularbells Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 hour ago, frednork said: Which side are you favouring to put the speakers on? If it is along the shorter wall then you still have a lot of scope with chair and speaker placement to reduce some of the peaks. Been changing short/long wall position practically every day but am settling on long wall due to improved imaging it provides (found this with the JBL's as well). Moving my chair closer towards the centre of the room yields a much more balanced bass response so its a pity we never got a chance to measure that. Not sure what a "MSO" option is but yep ive also been looking at active traps too (Bagend & PSI). Bagends about $3.4k and PSI are past 5k I think per unit but I reckon quite a few would be needed as far as I can tell only a small surface area is doing the work which in this case is a 8" or 10" driver which are effectively the "black holes" much the same as putting a window the same size without glass so cannot see how they would really help. The Realtrap "Megatraps" im looking at come as a pair which is why I mentioned 4 sets so planning on 4 per corner. Would love to be able to try though before committing though. Also like I said earlier perhaps some form of EQ might be effective although I realise this does not reduce ringing. anyone got a decent EQ unit to try? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satanica Posted October 17, 2019 Author Share Posted October 17, 2019 3 hours ago, Tubularbells said: This is to treat a fairly nasty peak below 50hz Comments/suggestions? Your sub-bass peak problems actually start at about 55Hz. Combined with the big dip and I'm stating the obvious here there is much room for improvement. But being positive if you like what you're hearing now you'll like it even more if these issues are at least somewhat ironed out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 4 hours ago, Tubularbells said: Im giving serious thought to investing heavily into the room rather than upgrading tubes, cables, amps etc. Product im looking at is this. https://awave.com.au/shop/accessories/acoustic-treatment/realtraps-megatrap-pair/ This is to treat a fairly nasty peak below 50hz I reckon i'll need at least 4 pair to stack into the problem corners here. And here (moving the record racks across to expose the corner). Opposite end of the room is open so am not hearing much bass build up there Problem is treating just these 2 corners is just shy of $3,500 so id be expecting it to do wonders but unfortunately dont think i'll be able to return them if they do not work as expected. Im also wondering whether simply EQing would be a cheaper, more elegant solution. Comments/suggestions? Four pairs would be the price of a nice DSP room correction solution which would be more than just EQ and can control far more than you can do passively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frednork Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 24 minutes ago, Tubularbells said: Been changing short/long wall position practically every day but am settling on long wall due to improved imaging it provides (found this with the JBL's as well). Moving my chair closer towards the centre of the room yields a much more balanced bass response so its a pity we never got a chance to measure that. Not sure what a "MSO" option is but yep ive also been looking at active traps too (Bagend & PSI). Bagends about $3.4k and PSI are past 5k I think per unit but I reckon quite a few would be needed as far as I can tell only a small surface area is doing the work which in this case is a 8" or 10" driver which are effectively the "black holes" much the same as putting a window the same size without glass so cannot see how they would really help. The Realtrap "Megatraps" im looking at come as a pair which is why I mentioned 4 sets so planning on 4 per corner. Would love to be able to try though before committing though. Also like I said earlier perhaps some form of EQ might be effective although I realise this does not reduce ringing. anyone got a decent EQ unit to try? Ok, long wall has less options but if it sounds better thats how it should be. Can do some more in depth measurements next week for the long wall position and set up a curve and try it if u want. With the active traps they dont need to be super powerful as you are only "cancelling " part of the signal maybe 10-15 db tops and unlike a window are not just not bouncing the wave back but pushing an out of phase or delayed signal which reduces the overall amplitude much more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 49 minutes ago, Tubularbells said: Been changing short/long wall position practically every day but am settling on long wall due to improved imaging it provides (found this with the JBL's as well). Moving my chair closer towards the centre of the room yields a much more balanced bass response so its a pity we never got a chance to measure that. Not sure what a "MSO" option is but yep ive also been looking at active traps too (Bagend & PSI). Bagends about $3.4k and PSI are past 5k I think per unit but I reckon quite a few would be needed as far as I can tell only a small surface area is doing the work which in this case is a 8" or 10" driver which are effectively the "black holes" much the same as putting a window the same size without glass so cannot see how they would really help. The Realtrap "Megatraps" im looking at come as a pair which is why I mentioned 4 sets so planning on 4 per corner. Would love to be able to try though before committing though. Also like I said earlier perhaps some form of EQ might be effective although I realise this does not reduce ringing. anyone got a decent EQ unit to try? id suggest EQ as last bastion... sounds like have found the best spot location wise. I definitely liked it better on long wall vs the narrower arched wall...but was very limited listening. no doubt you have clocked up much hours now to make best assessment ! no doubt be getting quite a daily work out too have you checked the local agents for this things. eg when listing the mega trap there looked like a local agent. they might have 4 you can borrow wiht deposit ? obviously pay for them if do as per claims ... they might also have other suggestions id also check the local specialist stores most are agents of some sort of treatments or other probably have something can borrow too...but these things tend to be bulky so not sure how much they keep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satanica Posted October 17, 2019 Author Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) . Edited October 17, 2019 by Satanica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiebosco Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, Tubularbells said: Im giving serious thought to investing heavily into the room rather than upgrading tubes, cables, amps etc. Product im looking at is this. https://awave.com.au/shop/accessories/acoustic-treatment/realtraps-megatrap-pair/ This is to treat a fairly nasty peak below 50hz I reckon i'll need at least 4 pair to stack into the problem corners here. And here (moving the record racks across to expose the corner). Opposite end of the room is open so am not hearing much bass build up there Problem is treating just these 2 corners is just shy of $3,500 so id be expecting it to do wonders but unfortunately dont think i'll be able to return them if they do not work as expected. Im also wondering whether simply EQing would be a cheaper, more elegant solution. Comments/suggestions? In your (gorgeous!!!) room I would place the speakers in the positions that provide the best imaging/soundstage/listening experience - get a few subs - a pair of SVS SB-2000 or SB-1000s or better yet - these and I'd get a miniDSP 2x4HD + umik-1 ....position the subs to fill the massive gaping null - use the miniDSP to integrate the subs to the Sovs and pull down that peak centred at 50Hz. I would also personally use 1/6Oct or Variable/Psychoacoustic smoothing on graphs and 5dB increments on the vertical scale Most prefer a generous amount of bass,with a rising response as the frequencies decrease,so I'm not at all surprised that they already sound very good Edited October 17, 2019 by jamiebosco 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blakey72 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) Watch this! https://www.acousticsinsider.com Edited October 17, 2019 by blakey72 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tubularbells Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 27 minutes ago, jamiebosco said: In your (gorgeous!!!) room I would place the speakers in the positions that provide the best imaging/soundstage/listening experience - get a few subs - a pair of SVS SB-2000 or SB-1000s or better yet - these and I'd get a miniDSP 2x4HD + umik-1 ....position the subs to fill the massive gaping null - use the miniDSP to integrate the subs to the Sovs and pull down that peak centred at 50Hz. I would also personally use 1/6Oct or Variable/Psychoacoustic smoothing on graphs and 5dB increments on the vertical scale Most prefer a generous amount of bass,with a rising response as the frequencies decrease,so I'm not at all surprised that they already sound very good Thx. for the info, @Tony M would be proud if I ever resorted to additional bass reinforcement. Speaking of @evil c wanna sell me back the REL? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattjtaylor2809 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 8 hours ago, Tubularbells said: Forget about foam for any effective treatment below 100hz. The bass will simply pass through them as if they weren't there. Ok, that's good to know.....my issue seems to be a dip around the 60-70 Hz range & it was suggested floor to ceiling bass traps, along with some 1st reflection diffusion would make the world of diff...so I bought this room acoustics package from Greys online but it only contains x2 traps & they're only 600 mm tall so what do I do with the rest if the corners?? What about a simple wooden frame, filled with pink bats + a nice cover...would that be any better than foam? Cheers Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satanica Posted October 17, 2019 Author Share Posted October 17, 2019 Some more info, I have two sub-woofers positioned front and back and in the middle (2.5 metres) of each short wall (5 metres). My mains are crossed over at 80Hz. My thinking is if I place a bass trap that works reasonably well behind each main speaker that might not do much under 80Hz they should at least clean up some of the mess above 80Hz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essence Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 11 hours ago, Tubularbells said: Problem is treating just these 2 corners is just shy of $3,500 so id be expecting it to do wonders but unfortunately dont think i'll be able to return them if they do not work as expected. Im also wondering whether simply EQing would be a cheaper, more elegant solution. Comments/suggestions? Play around with this: https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc. You can even move around the room and see where your nulls/peaks are, this will help with placement and positioning and even tell you the amount of absorption you need. I think people overestimate the amount of effect room treatment has on the FR response. Sometimes if the room ratios you're using is unfavourable there's not much all the treatment in the world can solve. EQ is much powerful tool in that regard, especially on the low end. And room treatment is used to fix issues that EQ cannot solve alone. I added offsets to the measurements for easier visual comparison. First set = no eq, second set = REW + rePhase auto eq 20-400hz, third set = sonarworks, fourth set = REW + rePhase full range with house curve being slope at 500hz to -6dB at 24kHz. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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