aussievintage Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, anewmission said: So back to my original post... OK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussievintage Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 On 13/10/2019 at 9:28 AM, anewmission said: Is there any point in buying the budget ones from eBay or aliexpress? I don't believe so. Not unless you can evaluate just what your are getting in terms of design and quality. There is no magic in just swapping cheap linear for cheap switching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocky500 Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, anewmission said: So back to my original post... I did buy this one for my Topping D50. I bought this one specifically because there was a write up on this circuit as a good recommended one. Not sure I can find it again though. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DC-25W-DC5V-3-5A-TALEMA-25VA-ring-Ultra-Low-Noise-Linear-Regulated-Power-Supply/273006837224?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 This one is the TALEMA 25VA transformer. Edited October 15, 2019 by rocky500 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 7 hours ago, aussievintage said: You should look up MEN - multiply earthed neutral - the system we use for power. Before RCDs, isolating transformers were a safety device. The normally earthed neutral is isolated, from ground, because it is now a floating output of the transformer. https://www.powerinspired.com/isolation-transformer-need-know/ Correct, av. But the input earth to the isotran continues to its output sockets - so earth is not floating/isolated. 8 hours ago, frednork said: The theory only takes you so far, nothing like trying it out to see if a difference is heard. Absolutely! 7 hours ago, anewmission said: So back to my original post... Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 On 13/10/2019 at 10:28 AM, anewmission said: I am considering buying a linear power supply to upgrade my Dac. (topping D50) Just wondering what people's thoughts on this are. Is there any point in buying the budget ones from eBay or aliexpress? Considering the Dac was only 300 I don't want to go overboard. I also noticed that bryston use linear power supplies to their turntables. My turntable is 15v input, I'm wondering if there is dual linear psu (5v and 15v outputs in the same chassis) Any help is appreciated You've had lots of responses - so you should've been able to pick up that there are several ways you certainly will get improved sound by upgrading power to your D50. But cheap solutions - either linear or switched mode - probably won't give as big an improvement as more costly ones. And I suggest it is irrelevant what your DAC cost - if you'd bought a $1000 DAC, you'd probably be facing the same issue. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirkgerman Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 9 hours ago, andyr said: ut, I suggest, still allows mains hash to pass through the transformer ( no, incorrect, the transformer blocks high frequency. Read all about it here https://www.schneider-electric.com/resources/sites/SCHNEIDER_ELECTRIC/content/live/FAQS/123000/FA123947/en_US/Isolation.pdf Still amazes me how you can give people a solution to an issue, then be ignored Carry on children 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirkgerman Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 15 hours ago, frednork said: I run a digital front end with networking etc. I have a 2000w isolation transformer and as I run an integrated with a dac I prefer the sound of it plugged into the Isolation transformer. I have 2 pc's (server and rendere) with good quality linear psu's, A switch with a cheap linear psu. Then there is a htpc android box with an smps, A wireless extender (w smps ) and a tv (assume with smps) Considering the noise injected back into the line from cheap SMPS's. Where should everything be plugged in (and should I get another isolation transformer? Plug in everything to the isolation Transformer that doesn't have a Linear Power Supply, which would probably exclude your integrated and include almost everything else As the transformer acts as a big inductor they tend to filter HF waveform distortion or as commonly known in Aufiophilia Land, hash on the mains 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, Dirkgerman said: no, incorrect, the transformer blocks high frequency. Read all about it here https://www.schneider-electric.com/resources/sites/SCHNEIDER_ELECTRIC/content/live/FAQS/123000/FA123947/en_US/Isolation.pdf Still amazes me how you can give people a solution to an issue, then be ignored Carry on children I get a different conclusion, reading the article you linked to, Dad. You are correct ... only if the transformer has an electrostatic shield. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirkgerman Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 Just now, andyr said: You are correct Yep and Toroidy do them in a Supreme with all the shielding. You don't use these ? These are sold to my Clients as well as DC Blockers to bring their Systems to Life https://sklep.toroidy.pl/en_US/c/Toroidal-transformers-AUDIO-GRADE/75 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromelang Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 (edited) Caution: A chunky big piece of metallic object of which linear power supplies mostly comprise of will severely damage the audio system's soundstaging capability - simply just by sitting there in close proximity. It's physics, no 2 ways about it. So by trying to avoid one issue, another problem is created. So ask for a longer umbilical cord feeding the dac or whatever devices you're trying to enhance. Place that LPS as far away as that umbilical cord will allow. Minimum safe distances to avoid magnetic field interference have been observed to require up to 3 meters... Edited October 16, 2019 by jeromelang 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, jeromelang said: A chunky big piece of metallic object of which linear power supplies mostly comprise of will severely damage the audio system's soundstaging capability - simply just by sitting there in close proximity. It's physics, no ways about it. What physics is this? 4 minutes ago, jeromelang said: Minimum safe distances to avoid magnetic field interference have been observed to require up to 3 meters... Do you know the magnitude of the forces you're describing? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewmission Posted October 16, 2019 Author Share Posted October 16, 2019 Yep and Toroidy do them in a Supreme with all the shielding. You don't use these ? These are sold to my Clients as well as DC Blockers to bring their Systems to Life https://sklep.toroidy.pl/en_US/c/Toroidal-transformers-AUDIO-GRADE/75Dc blockers interest me.. Let's say I went from mains through the dc blocker into my art (rfi emi filter) power conditioner and had everything hooked up to the art, I would be getting a better result?Having lps coming from the art into different devices that's the best set up apart from an expensive power regen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spammoj Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 Been trying to decipher all the info on this thread but getting no where without the relevant electrical engineering qualifications... Maybe more to the point, are there good examples on products on the market for well built LPSs or SPSs at a reasonable price? Soon to receive a D50 that I'm on the lookout for an upgraded power supply for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromelang Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 6 minutes ago, spamnoj said: Maybe more to the point, are there good examples on products on the market for well built LPSs or SPSs at a reasonable price? Soon to receive a D50 that I'm on the lookout for an upgraded power supply for. Borrow 1 (whatever your choices) to place nearby to your system without actually plugging it in to feed your dac. Observe soundstage changes, specifically height differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy8 Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 7 minutes ago, spamnoj said: Been trying to decipher all the info on this thread but getting no where without the relevant electrical engineering qualifications... Maybe more to the point, are there good examples on products on the market for well built LPSs or SPSs at a reasonable price? Soon to receive a D50 that I'm on the lookout for an upgraded power supply for. Before it got OT (hijacked?) and I ran away, there was mention of a matching PSU earlier For other more expensive products, I would consider Gieseler LPSUs reasonably priced and excellent quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 9 minutes ago, spamnoj said: Maybe more to the point, are there good examples on products on the market for well built LPSs or SPSs at a reasonable price? I regard Meanwell as a good example of a SMPS - although I would add that, in my system, my sound was better when there was an isotran + hash filter between the Meanwell and the wall socker. And the Sbooster is a great example of a linear PS - also Clay Gieseler's. As I have no idea of your financial position, I don't know whether you would regard them as "reasonably priced". Andy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spammoj Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 13 minutes ago, jeromelang said: Borrow 1 (whatever your choices) to place nearby to your system without actually plugging it in to feed your dac. Observe soundstage changes, specifically height differences. What are you hinting at Jerome? That just putting a PS near the existing one provides some sort of EMI capable of affecting SQ? Again, not an EE or sparky so I'm trying to understand the concepts here, and will prefer an off the shelf solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spammoj Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 10 minutes ago, andyr said: I regard Meanwell as a good example of a SMPS - although I would add that, in my system, my sound was better when there was an isotran + hash filter between the Meanwell and the wall socker. And the Sbooster is a great example of a linear PS - also Clay Gieseler's. As I have no idea of your financial position, I don't know whether you would regard them as "reasonably priced". Andy Curious about the Meanwell SMPS but a quick search turns up what looks like industrial compoenents so may be out of my reach given limited knowledge with electrons and sparks. May have to investigate the topping offering, as 'reasonably' to me now is no more than $150 given the DAC itself was only $300! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewmission Posted October 16, 2019 Author Share Posted October 16, 2019 Curious about the Meanwell SMPS but a quick search turns up what looks like industrial compoenents so may be out of my reach given limited knowledge with electrons and sparks. May have to investigate the topping offering, as 'reasonably' to me now is no more than $150 given the DAC itself was only $300!I have ordered the topping p50. I will let you know how it goes 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spammoj Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 37 minutes ago, andyr said: I regard Meanwell as a good example of a SMPS - although I would add that, in my system, my sound was better when there was an isotran + hash filter between the Meanwell and the wall socker. And the Sbooster is a great example of a linear PS - also Clay Gieseler's. As I have no idea of your financial position, I don't know whether you would regard them as "reasonably priced". Andy After more procrastinating at work I found this: https://www.power-supplies-australia.com.au/MEAN-WELL-GST25A05-P1J Is this the sort of unit that you used Andy? Or wall wart style: https://www.power-supplies-australia.com.au/MEAN-WELL-GE18I05-P1J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromelang Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, spamnoj said: What are you hinting at Jerome? That just putting a PS near the existing one provides some sort of EMI capable of affecting SQ? Again, not an EE or sparky so I'm trying to understand the concepts here, and will prefer an off the shelf solution. No, this issue is not about whether that piece of chunky metallic object broadcasting EMI or not. The issue is about what it does to surrounding audio components just by sitting there nearby in close proximity and not even plugged in and powered up. Every damn piece of hi-fi components we have in our system has to process complex audio signals, which are made up of fast-moving mixtures of level, frequency and dynamic range. These signals when passing along a wire, a circuit layout or through a component will have certain electrical properties, thus creating magnetic fields in their wake. These magnetic fields generate new fields by interacting with nearby and unnecessary metallic objects, (a phenomenon known as eddy current) resulting in interference. Sonically this translates into dynamic compression, shrunkened soundstaging, and bloated lower mid-bass "thump", mid and high timbre hardness. Power amps by themselves generate the strongest magnetic fields. So a piece of metallic object sitting next to it will cause a even more adversarial interference than being placed next to a pre-amp, a cd player, or a dac. Still, it is advisable not to place any extraneous and unnecessary metallic objects next to the lower current hungry equipments. And we had not even began to touch upon the instances when these LPS are powered up yet! Magnetic field interference does diminish with distances, however. To avoid this issue with LPS, try custom making a longer umbilical cord so that it can be placed further distances away from the audio components that it is required to feed. Edited October 16, 2019 by jeromelang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromelang Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 When custom making longer umbilical cords, remember to pay attention to the directionality of the wire being used. Big freaking sonic differences! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 Everyone's free to prioritise what they feel is important. I think I'll stick to modifications that have measurable impact in terms of demonstrable stability and accuracy of voltage and limitation of transmission of noise to components and back into the mains power instead of things that may have effects that can only be measurable when looking for interstellar neutrino emissions. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misternavi Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 17 minutes ago, spamnoj said: g at work I found this: https://www.power-supplies-australia.com.au/MEAN-WELL-GST25A05-P1J The Meanwell is good SMPS. They also come with the Regen (7V version think). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 2 hours ago, spamnoj said: Curious about the Meanwell SMPS but a quick search turns up what looks like industrial compoenents so may be out of my reach given limited knowledge with electrons and sparks. May have to investigate the topping offering, as 'reasonably' to me now is no more than $150 given the DAC itself was only $300! Have a look here: https://au.element14.com/w/c/power-line-protection/power-supplies/ac-dc-converters/ac-dc-external-plug-in-adaptor-power-supplies?CMP=KNC-GAU-GEN-DSA-e14&brand=mean-well&gclid=Cj0KCQjw3JXtBRC8ARIsAEBHg4kbHtSk-RSMnibL9XbXpT-oQhr2lWbe9LuPm0FO_UDZr4_NOnjxaocaAsNyEALw_wcB I'm curious why you have a problem paying more for a PS than for the DAC itself? The two are independent, in my view. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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