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blakey72

End game speakers. How is it done? What reasons?

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11 minutes ago, THOMO said:

There is no perfect speaker and they will all favour some types of music  or recording over another.

I suppose you have more chance of finding your end game speaker if you only listen to one particular type of music.

If you listen to a wide range of music forget it.Then you either have to own a few different pairs of speakers /systems or settle for something that are good all rounders and which have  a combination of traits that you find least compromised.Which is probably not as bad as it sounds.

Personally I think owning a few different speakers is much more interesting but understand that is not always domestically possible.That involves a whole other set of compromises!

My exact experience.

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On 12/10/2019 at 2:19 PM, Snoopy8 said:

Well said Mark. Most people here are churners of all components, and it can be addictive chasing the next upgrade. It takes effort to stop the urge to upgrade and better still simplify the setup.

 

To answer OP's question, I will cheekily answer with "look in the mirror".  Only you can decide if and when you have reached the end game. And only when you want to...

 

 

So true - well said MHouston and Snoopy8.  I too was guilty of this ever evolving chase and the fun that it brings.  Downside is that you're always spending hard earned and flipping the old for new for a lot less, essentially making this hobby a money pit.   

 

As to the Op's question, yes - only you can answer that.  But also, do take time to enjoy the system and over time it is a journey to be enjoyed.

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14 hours ago, jakeyb77 said:

It’s not in the speaker, it’s in the mind. When you relax and say that’s enough. 

Agreed, it is really up to us to decide when is enough...

On 12/10/2019 at 5:36 PM, swervyn said:

Pretty sure your ability to hear certain tones changes with age, also your ability to even hear!

Very true. Had a very rich uncle whose gear was at the super expensive high end and he loved his music. Maybe 10 years ago when he was in the 70s, he lost interest, even though his hearing was fine. Eventually, all the chasing for the end game can go to waste.

28 minutes ago, shogo33 said:

Downside is that you're always spending hard earned and flipping the old for new for a lot less, essentially making this hobby a money pit.   

Correction, until we stop, it is an endless money pit... 😅 

Edited by Snoopy8
Typo

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On 12/10/2019 at 5:36 PM, swervyn said:

Pretty sure your ability to hear certain tones changes with age, also your ability to even hear!

So what might be "end game" speakers in your 40's will most likely sound crap in your 60's as your hearing has declined and is most likely more responsive to certain tones than it is to others.
A speaker that has really detailed properties probably sounds like a bunch of muffled mumbo jumbo when you are 70 (or vice-versa)  and you might prefer a warm, not so detailed sound

I know certain noises that never used to bother me now annoy the crap out of me

I cant understand a word people say in a noisy environment and have to try and lip read people (which can be awkward if they have crap dental hygiene) and continuously have to ask people to repeat themselves (awkward also)

So, in short, end game speakers exist, just depends on what stage of life they suit.

That's my take, hope it makes sense O.o

Hi All,

 

This is a big thing in hearing that is often overlooked, and shifts the parameters for 'Endgame Speaker', especially if you are listening to your music at 80-85dB+ on a regular basic.

 

JJ

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8 minutes ago, Janjuc said:

This is a big thing in hearing that is often overlooked, and shifts the parameters for 'Endgame Speaker', especially if you are listening to your music at 80-85dB+ on a regular basic.

I have a db measurement app on my phone, and from my seated position to the speakers is anywhere between 3m or 4m.

 

When it's relatively quiet I can listen at 40-45db with peaks at around 55db or 50db with peaks of 60db plus or minus 1 or 2 db. So i don't get the visceral impact these days, but I still have a sense of scale, great detail and soundstage, even excitement, speaker disappearance,

 

It's something that I have got used to, I am intending to keep my hearing for as long as possible and am still managing 16-17Kz.

 

I saw the Zohra orchestra the other night at Robert Blackwood Hall and could still hear the light single notes of a triangle amidst the fuller moments of the orchestral sweep.

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4 hours ago, THOMO said:

There is no perfect speaker and they will all favour some types of music  or recording over another.

I suppose you have more chance of finding your end game speaker if you only listen to one particular type of music.

If you listen to a wide range of music forget it.Then you either have to own a few different pairs of speakers /systems or settle for something that are good all rounders and which have  a combination of traits that you find least compromised.Which is probably not as bad as it sounds.

Personally I think owning a few different speakers is much more interesting but understand that is not always domestically possible.That involves a whole other set of compromises!

Couldn't agree more , I have multiple speakers that all get use time to time , it's boring getting the same flavour ice cream every time , If I'm comparing speakers to ice creams my tannoys are chocolate and the yamaha's more vanilla , I'm more of a  obsessive collector though 😋

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No perfect speaker, but is there any that comes close, I'm thinking Magico "'M" series.

 

I've heard the Q3's on a number of occasions, mainly Vitus Class A/AB on board, sublime combo.

Not in you face or too recessed, holographic and totally non fatiguing. Not sure how many Q or M's in circulation, but you don't see many coming up for sale, must be saying something. 

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13 minutes ago, maximus said:

No perfect speaker, but is there any that comes close, I'm thinking Magico "'M" series.

 

I've heard the Q3's on a number of occasions, mainly Vitus Class A/AB on board, sublime combo.

Not in you face or too recessed, holographic and totally non fatiguing. Not sure how many Q or M's in circulation, but you don't see many coming up for sale, must be saying something. 

On principle and technology alone, I'd expect the Q7mkII to be right up there, but alas I've never had the pleasure of auditioning them. They share a few qualities with the Kharma loudspeakers, and I've heard the Enigma Veyron EV-4D, and they were almost faultless. Perhaps the 1D are faultless, but they cost $1.5M USD.

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4 hours ago, Ittaku said:

On principle and technology alone, I'd expect the Q7mkII to be right up there, but alas I've never had the pleasure of auditioning them. They share a few qualities with the Kharma loudspeakers, and I've heard the Enigma Veyron EV-4D, and they were almost faultless. Perhaps the 1D are faultless, but they cost $1.5M USD.

Absolutely extraordinary setup the Enigma's, must have been a mind boggling experience, and on looks alone they almost have a gothic presence about them, so daunting, definate extension to house the lot.

I heard the Elegance series, not sure of model at CAV a couple of years back and I thought they were end game..... 

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Funny, i started with a loan to get my end game speakers in my 20s and still have them 25 years later. Spent money since on sources, pre-amps, power amps and cables but no desire to ever change the speakers. I guess it is the beauty of highly efficient JBL horns combined with Pioneer tweete and TAD woofers.

I am just happy listening to musics i love through different valves and amps. No need for huge powerful expensive amps too.

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Edited by Bunno77
.

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On 14/10/2019 at 5:04 PM, Satanica said:

Not including any subwoofer(s) thrown into the equation I think the Dutch & Dutch 8c is quite likely the speaker that gets it more right than any other.

When you consider all amplifiers, DAC, EQ is included the price is within practically everyone's reach.

And they are so small they fit into practically any room.

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/dutch-dutch-8c-loudspeaker-review-r739/

 

My only concern is when something goes wrong how easy and cheap it is (or not) to fix or replace something within them.

Really want to hear these

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Curious anyone changed their mind about their end game speakers after going to the Hifi show?

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Guest jakeyb77
7 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Curious anyone changed their mind about their end game speakers after going to the Hifi show?

Not this year...., 

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On 12/10/2019 at 3:13 PM, Snoopy8 said:

 But it does not necessarily mean end game money, $$$$$. Otherwise, most of us will never get there because we have limits on what we are prepared to spend. Many end game systems are not necessarily the most expensive.

To add to my earlier post, I use benchmarks to help me determine what the end game should be. My ultimate benchmark is the Melbourne Recital Centre but the Hifi Show provided additional reference points.

 

The Kharma came extremely close to a live concert but at $200K, it was to be expected. The Kii Three with the bass module at $50K was excellent, undoubtedly helped by its DSP. But it was the Serhan + Swift Brigadier (my pick of the show) which showed that a small, relatively cheaper ($8K), 2 way speaker can be an end game.

 

So, for those who cannot afford to spend a lot on the Hifi, do not despair. Your end game speakers are determined by your own readiness to accept that things are good enough, and it is not necessary to continue chasing the next upgrade.

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Guest jakeyb77

I would love the Kii system. But I’m also sure I could be happy with an end game speaker used for a lot less than that value..... 

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Guest Muon N'
On 17/10/2019 at 10:13 PM, maxsimonjp said:

Funny, i started with a loan to get my end game speakers in my 20s and still have them 25 years later. Spent money since on sources, pre-amps, power amps and cables but no desire to ever change the speakers. I guess it is the beauty of highly efficient JBL horns combined with Pioneer tweete and TAD woofers.

I am just happy listening to musics i love through different valves and amps. No need for huge powerful expensive amps too.

Any pics, the description of them intrigues me :thumb:

 

Edit: Never mind, looked at your content and intro which has pics 😎

Edited by Muon N'

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1 hour ago, jakeyb77 said:

I would love the Kii system. But I’m also sure I could be happy with an end game speaker used for a lot less than that value..... 

If I had to pick something to upgrade to, it would be the Kii Three and without the bass module. Even then, it would be more than what I am prepared to pay.

 

And I was not tempted with anything else at the show...

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1 hour ago, Snoopy8 said:

If I had to pick something to upgrade to, it would be the Kii Three and without the bass module. Even then, it would be more than what I am prepared to pay.

 

And I was not tempted with anything else at the show...

I have ordered a pair of Kii three, in a custom gloss blue, they should come in a month or so. I was $$$ seduced into buying the BXT  module (ie amazing price offer).

 

I think they will be great, I have heard the Kii three alone and was amazed, so can’t wait to hear them with the BXT.

 

I agree that endgame for me (as pointed out by some others in the thread) would be three different speakers, ie a big pair of Avantgarde, the big Martin Logan Neolith and some big dynamics, probably the big gryphon system.

 

I will probably “just” end up with the Kii’s and some electrostatics with a valve amp for relative simplicity (probably quad 2912 or Martin logan Summit x etc.)

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On 16/10/2019 at 8:24 AM, Janjuc said:

Hi All,

 

This is a big thing in hearing that is often overlooked, and shifts the parameters for 'Endgame Speaker', especially if you are listening to your music at 80-85dB+ on a regular basic.

 

JJ

The hearing safety levels should be quoted in the A-weighted mode so it’s 85db(A) for 8 hours, 90dB(A) for 2 hours, 94dB(A) for 1 hour. Where no weighting is indicated it usually means unweighted, linear or Z measurement on a noise meter and could be over measuring the real figure by about 5-10dB, which is more cautious anyway but not giving you the full Monty.

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On 16/10/2019 at 1:26 PM, maximus said:

No perfect speaker, but is there any that comes close, I'm thinking Magico "'M" series

Do they also have the best that electrostatics can do?

 

The end game is to have the best of electrostatic detail, imaging, realism and transparency; with cone driver speaker impact, slam and bass extension.

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27 minutes ago, Al.M said:

Do they also have the best that electrostatics can do?

 

The end game is to have the best of electrostatic detail, imaging, realism and transparency; with cone driver speaker impact, slam and bass extension.

Then I would recommend a listen to a pair of open baffle Spatial Hologram speakers.

 

I recently purchased a pair of the Spatial Hologram M3 Turbo S, and, after some running in and fine-tuning of ancillary equipment, have been extremely pleased with the end result. The sound is very detailed, with good balance and control across the audio spectrum, and has a massive scale and presence. Nuances and impact seem to come from across the entire front wall in an almost eery manner. Bass, via my electronics, is cavernous but not overpowering. Voices are natural and sweet, and the stereo imaging is very good. These are sensitive speakers (95dB) so they do not require huge power - it's more about tonality.

 

I also found them quite magnificent for home theatre, to the point where I keep playing favourite scenes from various movies with epic soundtracks.  A sub is not required, although it does depend on your room and how you want to set your gear up.

 

I can thoroughly recommend the open baffle concept, and these speakers in particular.

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3 hours ago, Al.M said:

Do they also have the best that electrostatics can do?

 

The end game is to have the best of electrostatic detail, imaging, realism and transparency; with cone driver speaker impact, slam and bass extension.

Don't worry about the Magico 'M' series, the Kharma's  at the Hi Fi show did all the above plus a lot, lot more.

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Debating over which is a better end game speaker does not help with OP's question on how people get to their end game speakers and what reasons they used to arrive at their decision...

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