Tough review of PS Audio DS

[Addicted to music]

I haven’t auditioned this product, but I did a direct comparison with there entry level dac to a M51....

 

Amir does a subjective listening test,  even though it’s all about measurements 

[Assisi]

21 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

I haven’t auditioned this product, but I did a direct comparison with there entry level dac to a M51....

I had a PS Audio DS for some years until I moved up the food chain.  I considered it a good product at price point.  What I moved to and then moved to again was and are much better.  The DS is definitely superior to the NAD at 5X the cost.  A friend of mine has an M51 so we could do comparisons.

This thread and others on other forums that include many negative comments about PS Audio is a bit like the denigration of a football team that you will not support under any circumstances no matter how good the team might be.  Just read the unenlightened comments about Paul McGowan that float through SNA from time to time.  It brings out the tribal in us.   McGowan like all us is not perfect.  To me though he says a lot of sense about many things.

 

John

[Guest Muon N']

48 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

I haven’t auditioned this product, but I did a direct comparison with there entry level dac to a M51....

 

Amir does a subjective listening test,  even though it’s all about measurements 

So he thinks adding transformers to a DAC that has a complete opa output stage will have the same result.

 

OK, now I recall why I don't bother with that site.

[Addicted to music]

26 minutes ago, Assisi said:

I had a PS Audio DS for some years until I moved up the food chain.  I considered it a good product at price point.  What I moved to and then moved to again was and are much better.  The DS is definitely superior to the NAD at 5X the cost.  A friend of mine has an M51 so we could do comparisons.

 

This thread and others on other forums that include many negative comments about PS Audio is a bit like the denigration of a football team that you will not support under any circumstances no matter how good the team might be.  Just read the unenlightened comments about Paul McGowan that float through SNA from time to time.  It brings out the tribal in us.   McGowan like all us is not perfect.  To me though he says a lot of sense about many things.

 

 

John

Notice I didn’t comment on the difference between the entry level PS Audio and the M51....    just said that Admir does do listening tests, whether it’s to your satisfaction that’s up to you to decide,  at the time I didn’t know the brand,  and PS Audio latest top of the line DSD DACs weren’t even on the market.  And I had no idea who Paul was.   5x better, not sure!  

Both had its  pos and negatives,  I wasn’t interested in upgrading either an Ex SNAer wanted to find out what the big fuss with the M51 was all about so I put my hand up and took the M51 to his place, we used Nils Lofgrins live tracks, and what we notice was that when the high speed bass notes was played by his drummer the PS was just a blur,  with the M51 it separated every every hit and way in front in resolution, the PS was more natural but with matching you can fine tune that with the M51...

The ex SNAer. Had a few DACs on hand to compare, at the time I actually told him not to bother with the M51, it wasn’t an improvement what he had, just different,  but strangely enough he went against my advise and bought the M51 regardless.

[Assisi]

8 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

Notice I didn’t comment on the difference between the entry level PS Audio and the M51.

@Addicted to music

Yes I did notice.  I considered an M51 at $1.5K  The DS was about $7K or a bit more so 5X.  At the time the extra was worth it to me

 

13 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

Both had its  pos and negatives,

Hence my football analogy.  You are for them or against them.  Its a metaphor for our respective lives.

 

 

John

 

[Addicted to music]

1 minute ago, Assisi said:

@Addicted to music

Yes I did notice.  I considered an M51 at $1.5K  The DS was about $7K or a bit more so 5X.  At the time the extra was worth it to me

 

Hence my football analogy.  You are for them or against them.  Its a metaphor for our respective lives.

 

 

John

 

But John,  the entry level PS dac was on par in cost with the M51,  that’s what we were comparing it to. Not the latest greatest PS at $7k

[Assisi]

6 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

But John,  the entry level PS dac was on par in cost with the M51,  that’s what we were comparing it to. Not the latest greatest PS at $7k

Peter,

This thread is about the DS and I did refer to the significant price differential compared to the M51.  I just used your comment as a way of noting my positive experience with the DS plus an opportunity to make my comparison with football teams and the factional negatives about PS Audio.

John

[todagt]

I'm a DS senior owner, all I know as when I was compaing numerous DACS the DS was the first DAC that didn't sound like it was shouting at me. So I bought one.

 

Since then it has received numerous firmware updates and has improved everytime.

 

I'm sure they are much better sounding DACs but for now I'm happy with mine.

[Addicted to music]

3 hours ago, todagt said:

I'm a DS senior owner, all I know as when I was compaing numerous DACS the DS was the first DAC that didn't sound like it was shouting at me. So I bought one.

 

Since then it has received numerous firmware updates and has improved everytime.

 

I'm sure they are much better sounding DACs but for now I'm happy with mine.

Is your on e on FW 3.06 this is the latest.

[Addicted to music]

https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-perfectwave-directstream-da-processor-measurements

 

And here’s stereophile measurments. 

[todagt]

47 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

Is your on e on FW 3.06 this is the latest.

Yep,  on the latest firmware.

[frankn]

2 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-perfectwave-directstream-da-processor-measurements

 

And here’s stereophile measurments. 

Actually those are the measurements of the original operating system. JA redid his measurements on the next release and said there were dramatic improvements. 
The OS 1.2.1 that AJ noted was so improved ( OS v1.2.1 - 5 levels behind current OS ) has been further improved by another 6 upgrades. Each improving on the last. 
All updates are free, and available should you want to compare (but why would you??). 
 

[Guest]

I’m pretty sure if my systems components were all scientifically measured it would most likely in general come out poorly, but its irrelevant. 

[Ittaku]

10 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

I haven’t auditioned this product, but I did a direct comparison with there entry level dac to a M51....

 

Amir does a subjective listening test,  even though it’s all about measurements

Knowing the measurement head mindset, there's a good chance that his subjective listening tests just echo whatever his measurements have already told him. That said, I'm surprised there's any subjective listening going on at all at ASR and I (quietly) applaud that part of their process...

[Addicted to music]

The trouble with this is that owners send the units to him,  anything can happen,  not all products roll of the production line are going to performed the same,  i should know, when I run up commercial machinery no matter where they come from in the world or whatever manufacturer you’ll find that out of the box they all perform differently and that’s for the same model, we just follow a procedure in fine tuning to get that product to perform.   

You can see even with the latest FW this isn’t performing the same, even after on another site they have measured after a FW release and the measurement shows improvements.   

 

29 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

Knowing the measurement head mindset, there's a good chance that his subjective listening tests just echo whatever his measurements have already told him. That said, I'm surprised there's any subjective listening going on at all at ASR and I (quietly) applaud that part of their process...

But he has another product to compare it with “ a Topping “.     So yes I would agree that his mindset would echo what he’s measured and that’s what he’ll be listening for comparing it to the Topping.

[blybo]

In my humble opinion I feel that PS Audio market themselves on being different in topology, design philosophy, etc etc. While they may not say their way is the best or correct, it is implied other manufacturers have different goals other than outright sound quality, whether that be out right profit is left to the reader of the marketing. It is clever.

 

I home demo'ed the PS Audio Gain Cell Stellar pre amp along with a host of other amps and pre amps about 2 years ago. The Stellar was lucky to stay hooked up for more than a few songs. Not in the same league as other stuff of a similar price level I tried. It was not the only massive disappointment, the Peachtree  150 amp was also quickly repacked and sent back.

Edited September 28, 2019 by blybo

[TP1]

  I seem to remember that PS Audio claimed  ambitious specifications when their DS DAC was first released - I think holding manufacturers to account for their published specs is a good thing overall, particularly since some people may be influenced by the manufacturer's claims.  

 

Personally I tend to ignore all specs unless the tests adhere to recognised standards ( IEC, JIS etc) 

 

[Raffinator]

 
I home demo'ed the PS Audio Gain Cell Stellar pre amp along with a host of other amps and pre amps about 2 years ago. The Stellar was lucky to stay hooked up for more than a few songs. Not in the same league as other stuff of a similar price level I tried. It was not the only massive disappointment, the Peachtree  150 amp was also quickly repacked and sent back.

I don’t want to get too off-topic, but which preamps did you compare? And what did you go with, if any?

[Addicted to music]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-ps-audio-nuwave-dac.9187/

 

Amir has just done some measurements on the PS audio nuwave dac....  

thsi measures respectfully...

[aussievintage]

On 28/09/2019 at 7:44 AM, Addicted to music said:

But he has another product to compare it with “ a Topping “.     So yes I would agree that his mindset would echo what he’s measured and that’s what he’ll be listening for comparing it to the Topping.

Yes, just like when someone spends a lot of money on some piece of equipment or a new tweak to their existing system, and finds they hear a huge improvement.   It's the mindset, or expectation bias, coming into play.    I would expect he will be aware of that tendency and try to guard against it, but it can be very difficult.

[Ittaku]

1 minute ago, aussievintage said:

Yes, just like when someone spends a lot of money on some piece of equipment or a new tweak to their existing system, and finds they hear a huge improvement.   It's the mindset, or expectation bias, coming into play.    I would expect he will be aware of that tendency and try to guard against it, but it can be very difficult.

It's damn near impossible. It's also why most people seem to think there's a magic ceiling to quality in electronics (not speakers) that just happens to be exactly where their budget is for components.

[Guest Muon N']

The trick is to not look at money and possessions as part of 'you' and a component of ya' 'self-worth', too many people work on the 'He who dies with the most toys wins'

 

Our society feeds this mindset to a degree.

 

Edit: I would suspect Amirm's 'self' and his reviewing (and web presence) are joined at the hip.

Edited September 29, 2019 by Muon N'

[Tobes]

21 hours ago, Tasso said:

  I seem to remember that PS Audio claimed  ambitious specifications when their DS DAC was first released - I think holding manufacturers to account for their published specs is a good thing overall, particularly since some people may be influenced by the manufacturer's claims.  

 

Personally I tend to ignore all specs unless the tests adhere to recognised standards ( IEC, JIS etc) 

 

I think it's fair to note that the DS dac met it's SINAD specs.

In overall terms distortion is not high, probably an order of magnitude lower than a lot of tube stuff.

However many dacs exceed the DS by an order of magnitude (or more) - this may be important if you want to exploit hi-res material.

I owned the DS Jnr dac and it certainly didn't sound bad - far from it - but it did seem to have a pervasive 'fingerprint'. 

I found several other conventional dacs more revealing and detailed - I like to hear into the minutia of the recording.

 

At the end of the day it's about personal preference. I think the bashing on ASR has got right out of perspective. I doubt very much it sounds bad, I bet many on that site couldn't reliably distinguish  the DS dac from whatever else they are using.

There are far worse and infinitely more dodgy products in high end audio than the DS.

[blybo]

On 29/09/2019 at 8:52 AM, Raffinator said:

 

I don’t want to get too off-topic, but which preamps did you compare? And what did you go with, if any?

My mind was leaning to a streaming integrated, or at least a pre or integrated with DAC, however these all had a home demo;

Elektra tube Pre & Ref power amp (I owned these and sold to buy the Moon)

PS Audio Stellar Pre with my Elektra Ref power amp

Parasound Halo Integrated

Peachtree 150

Naim Uniti

Denon PMA-2500NE

Devialet base model

Moon Neo ACE

 

Went with the Moon despite it being the 2nd least powerful of all demo'ed. Honourable mentions to Naim and the Denon. PS Audio, Parasound and Peachtree were the least agreeable with my system in my home. YMMV

 

 

[Raffinator]

My mind was leaning to a streaming integrated, or at least a pre or integrated with DAC, however these all had a home demo;
Elektra tube Pre & Ref power amp (I owned these and sold to buy the Moon)
PS Audio Stellar Pre with my Elektra Ref power amp
Parasound Halo Integrated
Peachtree 150
Naim Uniti
Denon PMA-2500NE
Devialet base model
Moon Neo ACE
 
Went with the Moon despite it being the 2nd least powerful of all demo'ed. Honourable mentions to Naim and the Denon. PS Audio, Parasound and Peachtree were the least agreeable with my system in my home. YMMV
 
 

Thanks,

I'm leaning to a streaming integrated too. Hegel H390. Coming soon so hopefully can demo. I like the looks and the Roon integration.

If going separates, I was considering an Elektra pre. So does Moon beat it just on sound, or are they close but the features and simpler setup of the Moon make it the winner?