Insulating your dedicated power line to your theatre

[paulrp]

Hi All,

 

I have ran a 6mm line from a 20amp breaker over a 9m run length and into my theatre wall, I intend to terminate with a Clipsal 56 series and get rid of the clipsal 1000 series double.

 

I was thinking of running a second and third, though my sparky suggested only one is needed as even with eight components I won't exceed max wattage.

 

What do other's think?

 

I could just operate everything out of one Clipsal commercial 56 series wall plug and use a Shunyata Au8 off a Delta noise cancelling NR lead.

Approx. $4,500 and thats only basic conditioning, but simple and would upgrade to the higher Shunyata when they come into Aussie.

Or

Run 3 seperate 6mm lines off their own 20 amp breakers and then with 2 of these lines each with their own series 56, I could jump another 56 series for 2 points side by side to each of those lines and then leave the third line with only one 56, that would be for the Plinius two channel.

So that would be 5 x 56 series on my wall side by side. Approx. Cost $800

I already have a Giggawatt Evo 1.1 for front end source into one 56, then plug in PS audio Detec for wall warts and OLED 77 leaving three power amps plugged into their own 56 series points.

 

Which way would you go guys?

 

I was wondering if people run these dedicated lines in copper pipe, or shielding or maybe just 20mm conduit would help.

The lines would run past a heap of other 240 power running at 90* to my 6mm line - line's, does anyone think that There would be contamination?

Or only if I ran two three lines parralel to one another.

It is only 9m though.

[groovem]

You're overthinking this IMO. The most important thing is to make sure all components connected to your AV system are on the same circuit, otherwise you could get some hum. BTW 6mm cables are rated for 32 amp not 20 amp.

[A9X]

5 hours ago, groovem said:

BTW 6mm cables are rated for 32 amp not 20 amp.

Not according the AS3008. It depends on how they're run.

 

6 hours ago, paulrp said:

The lines would run past a heap of other 240 power running at 90* to my 6mm line - line's, does anyone think that There would be contamination?

No.

 

You need no more than a single 6mm.

[paulrp]

You're overthinking this IMO. The most important thing is to make sure all components connected to your AV system are on the same circuit, otherwise you could get some hum. BTW 6mm cables are rated for 32 amp not 20 amp.

Hi Groovem, not so much over thinking, more so listing potiental ways to do it and looking for your knowledge.
I used 6mm cable as it was only over 9m and the cost difference to 4mm wasn't much.

[Guest rmpfyf]

Consider that a 6mm cable earth isn't 6mm.

 

You may wish to insulate. If you're serious, hire a power systems consultancy. Cheaper than most audiophile solutions and very effective.

[paulrp]

No.
 
You need no more than a single 6mm.

Hi A9x
Yes I might stick to the one 6mm line and increase the CB to a 32amp to reduce heat and lower resistance and ohms.
I will daisy chain the 5 x 56 series with 6mm flat plus earth, same as lead cable.
Sound ok guys?

[A9X]

1 hour ago, paulrp said:

Yes I might stick to the one 6mm line and increase the CB to a 32amp

No!!!!!!!! Do not do this without confirming that the cable under the actual installed conditions is rated for that current in those conditions.

1 hour ago, paulrp said:

to reduce heat and lower resistance and ohms.

That's not how it works. The CB is there to protect the CABLE from overheating if too much load is placed on it. Oversize the CB and the cable can overheat, insulation melt and a fire start. DO NOT do this without confirming cable ratings first.

Increasing the size of the CB does not reduce the impedance of the circuit in any meaningful way.

Edited September 16, 2019 by A9X

[A9X]

2 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

Consider that a 6mm cable earth isn't 6mm.

So? The only time it's used is during a fault and it's paralleled with the neutral at the MEN.

[paulrp]

That's not how it works. The CB is there to protect the CABLE from overheating if too much load is placed on it. Oversize the CB and the cable can overheat, insulation melt and a fire start. DO NOT do this without confirming cable ratings first.
Increasing the size of the CB does not reduce the impedance of the circuit in any meaningful way.

Hi A9x

The lead cable is 6mm twin plus earth, I would also use the same 6mm for joining the 56 wall plates together, no reduction in cable size.
I was under the belief that 6mm will handle the 32amp. Electrician would be installing and checking everything.
Currently have a 20 amp CB .
What do you suggest?

[paulrp]

Although the the switching on each of the 56 plates have 10 amp switches, maybe I should stick with the 20amp CB.
Do you think the 10 amp switches will be ok on the 6mm line with 20 amp CB?

[Guest rmpfyf]

1 hour ago, A9X said:

So? The only time it's used is during a fault and it's paralleled with the neutral at the MEN.

 

Not exactly true in a not irrelevant way for audio.

 

We put so much work into dropping impedance to ground, and it's so pi** easy at this stage to run some more flex for earth that it's worthy of consideration. 

 

Yes, it's not going to do a lot of this isn't either direct connected to the MEN or if the added earth capacity isn't right through the MSB earth layout, though it costs very little to get it very right at this stage. 

[Guest rmpfyf]

@paulrp Any particular reason why the 56 series?

 

And when you intend multiples... I assume this means multiple 10A?

 

Could understand terminating each circuit in its own 20A socket and then using distribution from there, though your demand calcs may vary.

[paulrp]

@paulrp Any particular reason why the 56 series?
 
And when you intend multiples... I assume this means multiple 10A?
 
Could understand terminating each circuit in its own 20A socket and then using distribution from there, though your demand calcs may vary.

There isn't a decent quality wall plate made for Aussie points.

The clipsal 1000 series and domestic points are fairly piss poor and restricting in the switching wire size in the mechs

So The 56 series is the best beefed up Aussie version available.
Also good tight grip.

I have a dark blue theatre wall so I have bought Woolworths Dark grey 56 series on thin mounting plates.

[Guest rmpfyf]

38 minutes ago, paulrp said:

There isn't a decent quality wall plate made for Aussie points.

The clipsal 1000 series and domestic points are fairly piss poor and restricting in the switching wire size in the mechs

So The 56 series is the best beefed up Aussie version available.
Also good tight grip.

I have a dark blue theatre wall so I have bought Woolworths Dark grey 56 series on thin mounting plates.

 

Actually there are quite a few good wall plates out there.

 

I run Clipsal Iconic and they're pretty good - easy to work with, relatively high clamping force and will take very decent wire.

 

You're paying for ingress protection on the 56, which adds nothing to audiophile environments. Though the terminals are specd for 6mm wire, you're still going into usual clamping force and contact area for a 10A socket, and multiples aren't going to be easy to wire. It's money wasted IMHO.

 

Honestly you'd be fine terminating in any single 20A (56 or not), enjoying the higher contact area, and running local distribution to anything you need. You'll have contact losses on any subsequent distribution though... You may want multiple dedicated lines.

 

You might be able to get 6mm into a single Iconic 20A - it's specd for 4x2.5mm. Ask Clipsal or a sparky.

 

And then if you want some EMI protection or whatever, a local shop should be able to make you a suitable metal cover plate... You'll need an inert region but it's doable if you're dedicated, and would smoke a 56 for performance.

 

If length permits (AS3000 will dictate) 4mm with an upgraded earth might do.

Edited September 17, 2019 by rmpfyf

[paulrp]

Yeah, don't know, was advised that the 56s were good to use, from a few stereo shop owners.

Picked up my five 56s for $45 each.
I may put in three total lines for the five 56s.

Alternatively I do one ppint and buy a Shunyata AU8 8 way power distribution, but another $2,500 which I don't have.

[Guest rmpfyf]

20A into an Elsafe distribution and you're golden. Not $2500.

 

56 makes sense if an industrial environment... You don't need water and dustproofing.

Edited September 17, 2019 by rmpfyf

[Monkeyboi]

On 15/09/2019 at 3:11 PM, paulrp said:

I was wondering if people run these dedicated lines in copper pipe, or shielding or maybe just 20mm conduit would help.

The lines would run past a heap of other 240 power running at 90* to my 6mm line - line's, does anyone think that There would be contamination?

 

There would be no electrical advantage of running the cables through a copper pipe or through shielding.  Any electrical noise induced into the circuit could be coming from anywhere within the premises or even externally.  No doubt there will be others with a differing opinion.  If your concern is with electrical noise contaminating the mains you might want to consider investing a good line conditioner / filter.

 

As for running the cable in a 20mm PVC conduit.  If the cable is chased into the brickwork then yes I would recommend it in the fairly unlikely event the cable ever needs to be replaced as it can easily be pulled through the conduit.  If the cable is in the cavity of an external wall basically the same advantage but also provides additional physical protection against rodents chewing it.

 

I'd be interested to read what your final solution was, how much it cost and what benefits in system performance was yielded. 

 

Cheers,

Alan R.

[Steffen]

3 hours ago, Monkeyboi said:

As for running the cable in a 20mm PVC conduit.

Did you know, BTW, that those PVC conduits are directional?

 

Sorry, I'll see myself out... 

[Ittaku]

19 minutes ago, Steffen said:

Did you know, BTW, that those PVC conduits are directional?

Now you've done it... As amusing as it may be, I'm quite sure someone would be convinced of it. Remember you're not allowed to discount anything in the face of logic, reason, science, the universe, and everything, in this hobby.

[aussievintage]

On 15/09/2019 at 5:11 PM, paulrp said:

I was thinking of running a second and third, though my sparky suggested only one is needed as even with eight components I won't exceed max wattage.

I don't understand why you didn't listen to good advice right there.  Save your money for things that matter.

[paulrp]

I don't understand why you didn't listen to good advice right there.  Save your money for things that matter.

Hi Aussie,
if I use for eg. Shunyata Au 8 way distribution unit, it cost $4,000 with a decent power cord.

Or

to save the money I have to interlink 5 of my 56 series that I already have.
Problem with that It leaves a giggawatt 1.1 american plug conditioner for 4 components for the front end of my system.

I am trying to do away with American plugs.

I have 8 components

[paulrp]

Did you know, BTW, that those PVC conduits are directional?
 
Sorry, I'll see myself out... [emoji12]

LMFAO

[aussievintage]

45 minutes ago, paulrp said:

Hi Aussie,
if I use for eg. Shunyata Au 8 way distribution unit, it cost $4,000 with a decent power cord.

Or

to save the money I have to interlink 5 of my 56 series that I already have.
Problem with that It leaves a giggawatt 1.1 american plug conditioner for 4 components for the front end of my system.

I am trying to do away with American plugs.

I have 8 components
 

Not sure what you are getting at.  You only need one cable from the distribution, and you can wire as many outlets from it as you require.

[Dirkgerman]

Best thing money can buy for Linear Power Supply Units (found in most stereo systems) is a DC Blocker as that is the #1 Noise problem on the supply. Crest chopping and DC.

 

Maths, 230volts x 10Amps = 2300Watts.

2.5mm TPS, 2 core and earth is rated to carry up to 20A (pending installation AS/3008) or, 4600 watts.

 

Why the 6mm 2 cable ? is the stereo rated for + 4.5Kw 

4mm2 yea if the cable run was 40 meters, 6mm2 is something a true blue blood "Audiophile" would demand and something an Audio Engineer would not require. 

You can power a rock concert for 1000 people with 1 power point if required, yes you really can

 

Shielding the power supply cables will provide no advantages. Insulating power cables is detrimental to their ability to get rid of heat.  

 

Has anyone suggested that 2 supplies are better than 1 and 1 isolated power supply can pay dividends if the user completely understands "what an isolated supply is and why he uses it"

 

CLIPSAL 25WDE Power points are by a long margin the best Australian power point on the market. I know this as I'm a Sparky and been one for 37 years. 

The guts of them is the fattest and heaviest of all, but you will pay for one or 2 dearly. This is something the Audio Engineer would require or at least want on  the wish list.

 

 

Isolating system noise can be a tricky Business, but fairly easy to remedy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2019 by Dirkgerman

[Guest rmpfyf]

17 hours ago, paulrp said:

Hi Aussie,
if I use for eg. Shunyata Au 8 way distribution unit, it cost $4,000 with a decent power cord.

Or

to save the money I have to interlink 5 of my 56 series that I already have.
Problem with that It leaves a giggawatt 1.1 american plug conditioner for 4 components for the front end of my system.

I am trying to do away with American plugs.

I have 8 components
 

 

If you run 6mm into a 10A 56 series the block might be good for 6mm cable but not two of them to daisy chain - that's pushing s**t up a wall. If you're running 15A or higher points regardless they all should have their own dedicated breakers at any rate. 

 

Heat is better handled with bigger core wire and yes, if you want to run the stuff parallel to others then you can shield as noise is a thing that your equipment may or may not be sensitive to. There are plenty of applications that do this; best to speak with a power systems engineering firm and get a design done or at least some advice. This is not garden variety sparky territory. A day with a good power engineer is around A$1900 and will give better advice than $4k of Shunyata whatever. 

 

I'd be mindful of your maximum demand calcs here - 10A counts for either 20 10A GPOs or one 15A outlet, 15A for one 20A outlet. So these discussions assume you have the mains reticulation to suit, and AS3000 doesn't care whether you burn a 20A line to service a few watts on a record deck, it's 15A by the book. Get a few of these going and a usual 63A mains won't cut it - you'll need 3-phase supply. Which you may or may not have already. 

 

I'd consider what problems you actually want to solve. Blanket solutions are not the answer because they don't exist. Examples?

 

You can improve earth quality by dropping impedance to ground with better/deeper/better set/more earth stakes. You might also consider avoiding having your audio earth having noise current flowing through it - achieved easily by connecting your existing earth directly to the RCBO for your audio circuit(s) and bypassing the common earth bus. Can do a lot assuming earths not looped silly. Upping earth conductor size is deadnuts easy when wiring. This can all make a significant difference depending what base you start from. 

 

A DC blocker can sound nice for small DC rise issues though at large rise will actually contribute more DC noise (think about it). 

 

An isolation trans can be good, or it can add a series impedance to an already awesome audio power trans (then some interesting questions abound as to how to make it safe). 

 

Connection strength at the wall plate can be solved easy - call Schneider and ask them directly what clamps most in a given size, or uprate your GPO to something with more contact area - a 20A has more area on all three blades. As in a $45 Clipsal Iconic 20A set completely smashes a 56 series 10A for contact area, clamping force, etc irrespective of what any audio shyster that can't compute surface area with zero actual knowledge in metallurgy might say. Real engineers wrote AS/NZS 3112, and Clipsal/Schneider has real liability if a 20A set cannot conduct 2x a 10A set reliably - run with it. I love whenever someone suggests AU plugs/sockets are crap as if the US system is superior... we're light years ahead. Seriously. I can understand arguments about 'but the audiophile stuff is copper and that conducts better'... so just go larger. Problem solved. Small pure copper is not beaten in conductivity by larger not so conductive material. 

 

Want lower EMI? Do what the majors do and stick a metal faceplate on it. Can't? Get it machined. Want to reduce resonance if you believe in that much? A bog-stock Iconic runs rubber grommets and is made of plastic... which isn't a particularly awesome conductor of vibes. Or just spend the money mounting your speakers properly. 

 

Voltage dancing? Regenerate if your equipment needs this. 

 

In a perfect (mains) world you'd have 6mm, uprated earths, 20A outlets for high power analogue, low power analogue and digital all with nice shielded cable and direct earth runs. You would run local conditioning and distribution on the load side. But that's 45A of demand for a sparky to sign off on, and... well it's a lot and you'd want three phase with some pretty light loads for all else. 

 

Want to actually quantify your problems? Spend a little on proper metering. It exists if you're serious, and it's cheaper than poking a stick at a problem and hoping it works. 

 

Many good Australian firms will manufacture solid distribution, transformer and conditioning solutions. If you specifically know what you're looking for foreign solutions needn't be expensive. Isolation transformer quotes are an excellent example of this. 

 

There's a happy medium in there somewhere for your kit and budget, a good power systems person and a schematic will set you on your way to win, and a sparky can implement. 

 

Happy to help with references offline if you like. 

Edited September 19, 2019 by rmpfyf