Tri-amp with Integrated amp, help me to understand.

[CosmicJazz]

Hello to all,

 

Recently I was thinking about the possibility to use an integrated amplifier on a active tri-amp project, but I not quite understood how the integrated amp can be used.

 

Example:

 

It will have a 3 way active crossover.

 

I would like to use an solid state amp for the low frequencies, so this amp but be connected to the pre out on the tube integrated? this is correct?

 

and how the integrated amp will work in order to be connected to the mids and highs on the active crossover? the integrated must be two pre outs? integrated volume control will control both pre outs at same time?

 

I'm confused with this, appreciate if anyone can explain me in a simple way and direct way.

 

Many thanks, best regards to all.

Edited September 9, 2019 by CosmicJazz

[Decky]

An integrated amp is not the best way to run an active system and you identified the problem yourself - pre-amp and volume control. You can still use it as a power-amp if you can wire it correctly in the system but the pre-amp with volume control needs to sit before your active cross-over and the power amps work from the crossover outputs (2,3 4 way - whatever rocks your boat). A simplified schematic for a 2-way system would be :

 

[CosmicJazz]

Hmm I think I not understood fully, let me give a hypothetical exemple, consider this integrated, for power mids and highs, and any solid state amp for lows.

 

http://www.luxman.com/product/detail.php?id=16

 

i must connect the integrated “main in” into the cross overs outputs for mids and highs?

 

What about the separated solid state amp? What I do? It’s impossible?

[andyr]

3 hours ago, CosmicJazz said:

Hmm I think I not understood fully, let me give a hypothetical exemple, consider this integrated, for power mids and highs, and any solid state amp for lows.

 

http://www.luxman.com/product/detail.php?id=16

 

i must connect the integrated “main in” into the cross overs outputs for mids and highs?

 

What about the separated solid state amp? What I do? It’s impossible?

 

You can do what you want to do - and more (even run tri-amped) - but only in the following situation:

1. your integrated has 'pre out' and 'power in' sockets.
2. you use a device like a miniDSP 10x10HD to deliver the XOs in your speakers.

This scenario looks like this (sorry, I can't draw nice pics like Decky!

 

1.  feed L & R pre-outs into the miniDSP - such as a 10x10HD.

 

2. set up the HP & LP filters in the miniDSP, for 2-way or 3-way use.

 

3. connect the outputs on the miniDSP to the appropriate power amps.  In your case:

• one pair of outputs goes into the 'power in' sockets of your integrated
• the other pair(s) of outputs go to your other power amp(s).

4. here, the preamp's volume control controls the volume going to all the amp channels; you use the gain adjustment capability in the miniDSP to compensate for the different amp gains.

 

Regards,

Andy

 

[CosmicJazz]

5 hours ago, andyr said:

 

You can do what you want to do - and more (even run tri-amped) - but only in the following situation:

1. your integrated has 'pre out' and 'power in' sockets.
2. you use a device like a miniDSP 10x10HD to deliver the XOs in your speakers.

This scenario looks like this (sorry, I can't draw nice pics like Decky!

 

1.  feed L & R pre-outs into the miniDSP - such as a 10x10HD.

 

2. set up the HP & LP filters in the miniDSP, for 2-way or 3-way use.

 

3. connect the outputs on the miniDSP to the appropriate power amps.  In your case:

• one pair of outputs goes into the 'power in' sockets of your integrated
• the other pair(s) of outputs go to your other power amp(s).

4. here, the preamp's volume control controls the volume going to all the amp channels; you use the gain adjustment capability in the miniDSP to compensate for the different amp gains.

 

Regards,

Andy

 

 

1.  feed L & R pre-outs into 3 way analog crossover pre inputs.

 

Let me see if I understood, will consider an 3 way analog crossover, (don't know if makes a difference, as you are consider a DSP so please let me know), luxman pre out into the crossover pre input

 

3. connect the outputs on the crossover to the appropriate power amps.  In your case:

 

one pair of outputs goes into the 'power in' sockets of your integrated

on pair of outputs goes into the "main in" on the integrated, 

 

the other pair(s) of outputs go to your other power amp(s).

the other pair goes to the solid state amp.

 

4. here, the preamp's volume control controls the volume going to all the amp channels; you use the gain adjustment capability in the miniDSP to compensate for the different amp gains.

So in that way, the volume control on the integrated controls his power amp built in, and the solid state amp separated

 

I understood everything right

 

Please let me know, best regards sir.

 

 

 

 

If is possible make a drawing using this picutres, just some lines showing the connections, I think I will understand fully, already thank you so much guys!

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by CosmicJazz

[andyr]

I've put my comments (in red) in your post, below.

 

Regards,

Andy

 

 

28 minutes ago, CosmicJazz said:

 

1.  feed L & R pre-outs into 3 way analog crossover pre inputs.

 

Let me see if I understood, will consider an 3 way analog crossover, (don't know if makes a difference, as you are consider a DSP so please let me know), luxman pre out into the crossover pre input

 

Yes, Luxman pre out into the Fostex Input.

 

3. connect the outputs on the crossover to the appropriate power amps.  In your case:

 

one pair of outputs goes into the 'power in' sockets of your integrated

one pair of outputs goes into the "main in" on the integrated,

 

Yes.

 

the other pair(s) of outputs go to your other power amp(s).

the other pair goes to the solid state amp.

 

Yes.  Or 2 amps if you are triamping.  (The Fostex seems to be set up for a woofer, mid & tweeter; if you are only going to be using it 2-way ... can you select the appropriate XO frequency to use for 2-way?)

 

4. here, the preamp's volume control controls the volume going to all the amp channels; you use the gain adjustment capability in the miniDSP to compensate for the different amp gains.

So in that way, the volume control on the integrated controls his power amp built in, and the solid state amp separated.

 

Yes.

 

I understood everything right

 

Please let me know, best regards sir.

 

 

 

 

If is possible make a drawing using this picutres, just some lines showing the connections, I think I will understand fully, already thank you so much guys!

 

 

[CosmicJazz]

So in resume, considering your notes:

 

 the integrated  "main in" connected with a cable splitter, that goes, a pair for the mid on the crossover, other pair to the highs on the crossover, this will make the integrated power the mids and highs, correct?

 

The solid state amp just stick into the  low output on the crossover.

 

In that way, the integrated volume control, will control all drivers.

 

Everything correct here?

 

Thanks!

 

 

[andyr]

48 minutes ago, CosmicJazz said:

So in resume, considering your notes:

 

 the integrated  "main in" connected with a cable splitter, that goes, a pair for the mid on the crossover, other pair to the highs on the crossover, this will make the integrated power the mids and highs, correct?

 

The solid state amp just stick into the  low output on the crossover.

 

In that way, the integrated volume control, will control all drivers.

 

Everything correct here?

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

Errrhhh, not quite! 

 

If you are going to use the Fostex to have a 3-way active system - ie. each speaker has:

• a woofer
• a mid, and
• a tweeter

... then you need 6 amplifier channels - ie. 3x stereo amps.  Not just your Luxman (stereo - so 2 channels) plus a solid state stereo amp!

 

In which case, the 'Pre Out' L & R from the Luxman integrated go into the Fostex 'Input' (L & R).

 

Then:

• the 'High Outputs' go to the tweeter power amp
• the 'Mid Outputs' go to the mid amp
• and the 'Low Outputs' go to the woofer amp.

I presume you intend to use the Luxman 'Main in' to power either the mids or the tweeters?

 

Andy

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by andyr

[CosmicJazz]

Yes, that's my question, the possibility to use the Luxman for bi-amp the mids and highs, it's possible? so the Luxman "main in" goes to the mids and high crossover outputs, with a cable splitter. It's possible?

 

Many thanks for the patience in teaching man, I'm very grateful. 

[Primare Knob]

Yes, that's my question, the possibility to use the Luxman for bi-amp the mids and highs, it's possible? so the Luxman "main in" goes to the mids and high crossover outputs, with a cable splitter. It's possible?
 
Many thanks for the patience in teaching man, I'm very grateful. 

You seem to mix (and match) up bi-wire with bi-amping.

Bi amping is each (stereo) speaker driver has a dedicated (stereo) amplifier for itself.

Bi-wire is each speaker driver has a dedicated speaker wire, all fed from the same amplifier.

Technically you can mix and match both configurations into a bi-amped-wired system where 1 stereo amplifier is driving 2 drivers, and 1 stereo amplifier is driving 4 drivers via bi-wire speaker cable.

But bi-wiring doesn't have any benefits like bi-amping.

[Primare Knob]

Hello to all,

 

Recently I was thinking about the possibility to use an integrated amplifier on a active tri-amp project, but I not quite understood how the integrated amp can be used.

 

Example:

 

It will have a 3 way active crossover.

 

I would like to use an solid state amp for the low frequencies, so this amp but be connected to the pre out on the tube integrated? this is correct?

 

and how the integrated amp will work in order to be connected to the mids and highs on the active crossover? the integrated must be two pre outs? integrated volume control will control both pre outs at same time?

 

I'm confused with this, appreciate if anyone can explain me in a simple way and direct way.

 

Many thanks, best regards to all.

It sounds like you want to use 2 amplifiers for a tri-amp setup?

 

If that is the case, you are either 1 amp short, or will have to use a bi-amp setup, with bi wire speaker cable (for your mids and highs)

 

But you have to use a passive crossover for the drivers using bi-wire, as you can’t do that with an active crossover, which bi/tri-amping is all about, eliminating the passive crossover.

[CosmicJazz]

Yes, I said wrongly, I mean bi-wire the mids and highs with the Luxman Integrated, "power in" from luxman goes into mids and highs with a cable splitter on the crossover. and also of course bi-were the mids and high from from luxman integrated into the mids and high speakers

drivers.

 

so a slid state amp will used for the bass.

 

do you think it's worth?

Edited September 13, 2019 by CosmicJazz

[CosmicJazz]

Hm..  what is the technical reason that makes unviable bi-wire the mids and highs of one amp into the active crossover?

 

Thanks.

[andyr]

6 hours ago, CosmicJazz said:

Hm..  what is the technical reason that makes unviable bi-wire the mids and highs of one amp into the active crossover?

 

Thanks.

 

It's quite simple, CJ:

• you say you want to have a pair of 3-way speakers.
• ie. each spkr contains 3 drivers.
• if you use a passive XO in each spkr, you can use your Luxman (stereo) to drive the spkrs - ie. you only need 2 channels of amplification..
• if you want to actively triamp the speakers - you need 6 channels of amplification ... 1 for each driver.
• another option is to use 4 channels of amplification.  In this setup (ss amp on the woofers and the Luxman powering the mids & tweeters) you need an active XO between woofers & mids/tweeters ... plus a passive XO between mids & tweeters.

Andy

 

[CosmicJazz]

But what about Luxman “power amp in” goes into mids and highs on the active crossover (using a cable spitter).

 

solid state amp goes  into the lows on the active crossover.

 

luxman “pre out” goes into the pre amp in on the active crossover.

 

I know that this way I will not be bi-amping the mids and highs, this would be just bi-wire,  but still using the active crossover, this can work, no?

[andyr]

CJ - you probably read - but you didn't comprehend what I wrote.  "Active" means having a dedicated amp channel - so:

• 6 amp channels for 3-way active
• 4 amp channels for 2-way active ... in which case you need a passive XO between mids & tweeters.

Andy

 

[davewantsmoore]

4 hours ago, CosmicJazz said:

I know that this way I will not be bi-amping the mids and highs, this would be just bi-wire,

These terms are confusing and mostly irrelevant.

 

Draw a picture/diagram of what you intend to do.

 

4 hours ago, CosmicJazz said:

I know that this way I will not be bi-amping the mids and highs, this would be just bi-wire,  but still using the active crossover, this can work, no?

No - I don't think so.... but maybe I don't understand.   Use a picture, not words.

[CosmicJazz]

Understood so if if I plug the connections the way I described above, there will be no sound right?

[davewantsmoore]

1 hour ago, CosmicJazz said:

Understood so if if I plug the connections the way I described above, there will be no sound right?

I don't understand your description well enough to be able to say with certainty.

[CosmicJazz]

Something like this:

 

Luxman main in goes into mids and highs outputs on the active crossover (using a cable spitter).

 

A separated solid state amp goes  into the low output on the active crossover.

 

Luxman pre out goes into the pre amp in on the active crossover.

 

I know that this way I will not bi-amp the mids and highs with the Luxman, I will just bi-wiring the mids and highs into the active crossover.

 

 This  is Okay? will work? Will damage the equipments? I will get no sound? What will happen?

 

Many thanks, I think I was more clear now.

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2019 by CosmicJazz

[davewantsmoore]

8 minutes ago, CosmicJazz said:

Luxman “power amp in” goes into mids and highs on the active crossover (using a cable spitter).

This amp doesn't have anything called "power amp in".   Is it the amp you're going to use?

 

You'll need to be more specific.

 

[CosmicJazz]

Considering this amp as a hypothetical solution to understand if this application is viable.

 

the input labeled main in is = power in, no?

 

 

Edited September 14, 2019 by CosmicJazz

[rantan]

51 minutes ago, CosmicJazz said:

the input labeled main in is = power in, no?

Yes.

 

[CosmicJazz]

so the connections that i explained on the post above, with the pictures, will work?

 

Thanks.

[Primare Knob]

Something like this:

 

Luxman main in goes into mids and highs outputs on the active crossover (using a cable spitter).

 

A separated solid state amp goes  into the low output on the active crossover.

 

Luxman pre out goes into the pre amp in on the active crossover.

 

I know that this way I will not bi-amp the mids and highs with the Luxman, I will just bi-wiring the mids and highs into the active crossover.

 

 This  is Okay? will work? Will damage the equipments? I will get no sound? What will happen?

 

Many thanks, I think I was more clear now.

 

 

 

No, you should really put it on paper. When you do this, there will be a fair chance you will start to see the problem yourself.

 

Luxman Pre out into active cross over,

Active crossover into 1 power amp driving low frequency drivers,

Luxman bi-wire or single wire into passive crossover driving mids and highs drivers.

 

Your low frequency drivers need to have no passive crossover connected at all to generate a benefit.

You will only use the low frequency channel on the active crossover, and not the mids and highs channels.

You will need a very similar power amp as used in the Luxman, if not, you will need some measurement gear to equalise the levels.

 

Please keep in mind that many may not understand your question, and that you might not understand their answer.

 

You have posted an x-over which can be used for low-mid-high frequency, but seem to only want to use 1 power amplifier. This is confusing.

 

You are posting a Luxman, which can be used as an integrated amplifer, as a pre amplifier, and as a power amplifier. This is confusing in how you intend to use it within the current context.