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Current And progressing Class D vs Conventional Amplifiers


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6 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

Wow, that's a bigger spend than I was contemplating for the Hypex.

 

I take it you know the company and it has a good reputation.  I ask, because I don't and because that page doesn't tell me much on the technical side.  It's very much and audiophile sales pitch.  Of course I'd love to know what they are doing special, or different at least, for the price.   Especially when I see funny things like 350W into 8 ohms and 700W into 7 ohms?

Did you read description and Specifications? 

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7 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

Wow, that's a bigger spend than I was contemplating for the Hypex.

 

I take it you know the company and it has a good reputation.  I ask, because I don't and because that page doesn't tell me much on the technical side.  It's very much and audiophile sales pitch.  Of course I'd love to know what they are doing special, or different at least, for the price.   Especially when I see funny things like 350W into 8 ohms and 700W into 7 ohms?

I’m guessing because they are discrete there is no gate controller chip. That chip is discrete. 

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8 minutes ago, mwhouston said:

Did you read description and Specifications? 

Yes.  They spend most of it describing the audiophile quality of the components they use, and no circuit description much , or at all.

 

Have you seen any reviews?

 

9 minutes ago, mwhouston said:

I’m guessing because they are discrete there is no gate controller chip. That chip is discrete. 

 

All the more reason to want to know you're not getting a design from last century, hyped up to appeal to the audiophile crowd.

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44 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

I would rather hear about your comparison with a SS class A amp.   I specifically avoid judging an amp compared to a valve amp, when I always suspect a valve amp of colouration (unless I see the measurements and they say there's none  :) )   

Well it's impossible to say "none" for just about any amplifier, but spec-wise the amps measure pretty well - almost solid state llike, except for output impedance. If you want to blame the output impedance for tone variation in the response, the speakers have their tone managed through DSP so any frequency variations from flat are largely irrelevant as well.

 

image.png.2155fdf2d23f97108eb80be8e7293989.png

 

They do cost 30x as much as the class D amps they were compared to though, and the only reason we keep bringing them up is some people seem to think there's a ceiling to quality that can be obtained and cost beyond that is some kind of luxury fluff only. I think once things measure well "enough" we can't hear the THD or IMD below certain levels, and whatever else they get right is something we're still failing to measure.

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1 minute ago, Ittaku said:

If you want to blame the output impedance for tone variation in the response, the speakers have their tone managed through DSP so any frequency variations from flat are largely irrelevant as well.

Hey, I wasn't trying to blame anything.  Don't get me wrong, I love valve amps.  In fact, that's why I was surprised at liking the TK2050.  I was sure I was just going to use the thing for a subwoofer, but changing from a SET to  the class D, I felt I was not leaving much behind.

 

3 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

They do cost 30x as much as the class D amps they were compared to though, and the only reason we keep bringing them up is some people seem to think there's a ceiling to quality that can be obtained and cost beyond that is some kind of luxury fluff only.

They are truly impressive amps.    But maybe not a good example when making a general comparison of class A and class D, as they are just too good, and hence outliers.

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Just now, aussievintage said:

Hey, I wasn't trying to blame anything.  Don't get me wrong, I love valve amps.  In fact, that's why I was surprised at liking the TK2050.  I was sure I was just going to use the thing for a subwoofer, but changing from a SET to  the class D, I felt I was not leaving much behind.

 

They are truly impressive amps.    But maybe not a good example when making a general comparison of class A and class D, as they are just too good, and hence outliers.

Valid points indeed. The blaming part was because there are certain people on this forum that automatically bring that up whenever anyone mentions valves. I wasn't pointing the finger at you, it was preemptive defence :)

 

Yes I know they're way beyond the price comparison, but as I said, others have insisted their much cheaper class D alternatives are actually better amps.

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1 minute ago, Ittaku said:

Yes I know they're way beyond the price comparison, but as I said, others have insisted their much cheaper class D alternatives are actually better amps.

 

I would put it this way.  A similarly well designed and executed class D, in the suitably high price frame,  just might be :tongue: , but not something much cheaper, no.

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1 minute ago, aussievintage said:

I would put it this way.  A similarly well designed and executed class D, in the suitably high price frame,  just might be :tongue: , but not something much cheaper, no.

And I'd agree. The fact remains that it simply costs money for the finest components to make the most of any design. It's not the design that determines how good something is. It's never about technology, but about implementation.

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16 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

Back at the other end, I just got emailed my little purchase is on the way.  The boys must be working on a Sunday!  (looking at the picture, I hope my heatsink is straighter :)      Looks like the opamp is socketed - woohoo 

 

s-l1600.jpg

Got a link to this module.

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13 hours ago, andyr said:

I have the ability to try for no charge because a mate of mine has a (I believe) NC400-based D-class amp which he's happy to lend me.  I can try it on my:

  • bass panels
  • mid panels, and
  • ribbons

- all I need to do is find out from him whether it is stable into:

  • 4 ohms
  • 3.2 ohms, and
  • 2 ohms.  :)

Yes it is ;)

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21 hours ago, mwhouston said:

I’m on the verge of ordering a pair of these and PSs. About $3500 without delivery. 

 

any comments 

 

https://www.newclassd.com/index.php?page=172&hv=1

 

Too much audiophile poetry. Sorry but if I went down the path for Class D then I would be following Anthony's suggestion of getting the most powerful modules for my Maggie's OR I would wait for the GaN implementation to come out which was more affordable as I think with GaN you are at least getting something that resembles evolving technology. I'm not saying the latest offering doesn't but GaN is approaching it from another angle albeit more expensive. 

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1 hour ago, ghost4man said:

Too much audiophile poetry.

That was my impression too.

 

1 hour ago, ghost4man said:

Sorry but if I went down the path for Class D then I would be following Anthony's suggestion of getting the most powerful modules for my Maggie's OR I would wait for the GaN implementation to come out which was more affordable as I think with GaN you are at least getting something that resembles evolving technology. I'm not saying the latest offering doesn't but GaN is approaching it from another angle albeit more expensive. 

Just changing to faster devices is a bit of a brute force approach and doesn't necessarily solve the issues, and that's if you think there are any issues.  Not everyone wants to drive short circuits :) 

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2 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

Just changing to faster devices is a bit of a brute force approach and doesn't necessarily solve the issues, and that's if you think there are any issues.  Not everyone wants to drive short circuits :) 

 

 

There are  issues when driving spkrs which drop to low impedances, av.

 

If you drive them passively  then you need lots of power/current.  3 amps with a proven record with Maggies are:

  1. ME850
  2. Magtech
  3. Mac 452.

And of course, there are the multi kilo-buck amps from the likes of d'Agostino!  :thumb:

 

If you drive Maggies actively - then you have a different set of issues!  :lol:  Having an amp channel on each driver means:

  • their power output doesn't need to be as great
  • but they need to be able to continuously drive 2 or 3 ohms.

In my case, driver impedances (actually, almost entirely resistances !) are:

  • bass panel - 4 ohms
  • mid panel - 3.2 ohms
  • ribbon - 2 ohms.

The amps I use - which perform very well (although I haven't done any direct amp shootouts against them) - are:

  • bass panels: AKSA 'Soraya' - 100w into 8 ohms.
  • mid panels & ribbons: - NAKSA 80; stock this is 80w into 8 ohms but I have down-rated the DC rails, on Hugh Dean's advice, to enable them to cope with 2 ohm loads ... so they are about 55w into 8 ohms.

Andy

 

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On 23/09/2019 at 9:21 PM, aussievintage said:

That was my impression too.

 

Just changing to faster devices is a bit of a brute force approach and doesn't necessarily solve the issues, and that's if you think there are any issues.  Not everyone wants to drive short circuits :) 

And no manufacturer wants there product to drive a short.....especially amplifier manufacturers. .

Fast output stages deployed doesn’t mean that its high current capable neither where a high current capable device is actually fast. 

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6 minutes ago, mwhouston said:

I would have to wonder how much improvement  I would get over my two current class Ds

 

I would love to see a comparison to how much improvement has happened since Tripath, compared to other cheap current class D and Hypex (and maybe Icepower).   I am sure there has been improvement, but how much, and how audible will it be in the average system (not impossible to drive funny flat speakers :) )

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1 minute ago, mwhouston said:

I would have to wonder how much improvement  I would get over my two current class Ds for a hell of a lot more money. 

That I can’t answer,  

 

maybe ask someone here and do what we did; GTG so you can compare them with volume matched....

 

I was actually surprised when I did it after we had that GTG.   Andy came back with his  nc400  and we volume matched with the Magtech I just purchased  on a Maggie 1.7.   I was surprised how good the nc400 was compared to the Magtech....literally got caught out!  

At $3500 is a lot to spend on a class D, but a Magtech is now in the $9k mark RRP.   If it was today it’ll be the hypex for sure, don’t have $9k for the hobby!  

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2 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

 

I would love to see a comparison to how much improvement has happened since Tripath, compared to other cheap current class D and Hypex (and maybe Icepower).   I am sure there has been improvement, but how much, and how audible will it be in the average system (not impossible to drive funny flat speakers :) )

Be good if you all GTG and do a comparison, then you know where they all stand!  

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