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Streaming over WiFi versus Ethernet Connection


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1 hour ago, Addicted to music said:

500ft is 152.4m at $699 a roll!    $4.50/m   Around $6.60AUD/m

 

Admittedly the terminations won't be cheap if purchasing it to make a fully-CAT8-spec installation :D 

I think Clipsal mechs currently run to CAT6a and no more. Worth checking :) 

 

Just think that AUD$6.60/m is probably a retail price. Some audiophile company will purchase it wholesale without the outer, dress it up in something branded with sparkle dust, gold-plate the connectors and it'll be ours for a bargain AUD$300/m :P (and do the same thing!)

 

But yeah, it's not hellishly expensive. For anyone trying it'd be worth remembering that minimum bend radius on higher-spec'd cables isn't insignificant, and it doesn't provide insurance against poor installation - which can be a bit of a lottery! We had two firms do cabling at our place - one was really good, one was terrible. CAT6 installed well will do better than CAT8 installed poorly. 

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I want to do a shout out to the good people on this forum.

 

One very kind forum member offered to buy and ship a CAT8 cable from overseas at no cost to me because they were so passionate that I would hear a difference. Whilst I didn't take them up on their offer, I did respect their experience and purchased the recommended cable.

 

I must say in general that I am sometimes floored at the generosity and kindness of the people on StereoNet. I've had people lend me cables, not knowing me at all, and trusting me with some pricey equipment, even going to the effort of shipping them to me.

 

Also if you look at the level of conversation on this thread; there's disagreeing opinions, but nobody gets personal. Really shows a level of maturity and respect. Its not something you commonly experience of public Internet forums.

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6 minutes ago, Ed Sky said:

I believe that CAT8.2 is not backwards compatible as it does not take RJ45 plugs. The same company does however stock CAT8.1 for less at $349US per 500ft: https://www.primuscable.com/cat8-1-bulk-ethernet-cable-40g-cmr-23awg-solid-copper-dual-shielded-sftp.aspx

 

There's also an Amazon AU option at $20 for a terminated 5m CAT8 cable: https://www.amazon.com.au/gp/product/B07JD8K7C7/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=AT2KEEZGY7CCU&psc=1 (They do have other lengths.)

 

I ended up going with an ELECOM CAT8 cable which is being imported from Japan so will take a while to get here. It's a bit pricier to import but still reasonably priced.

 

Not exactly. 

 

You can terminate any CAT class on a RJ45 except CAT7, which is largely why we don't see much about it (also that CAT7 is not a recognised standard by the Telecommunications Industry Association). Whether or not you get full speed or not is a different matter. 

 

CAT8 is a very significant departure from previous standards in that with CAT8 every pair must be individually shielded in addition to the entire cable being shielded. Most CAT8 cable should be made of 22AWG core. You'll feel it all the second you have it in hand - it's quite thick and not at all bendy. 

 

CAT8.2 is slightly higher spec than CAT8.1. Tighter twists, better shielding, there's a ton of ways to achieve it. If you want full spec 40GBps behaviours you will need a better-than-RJ45 connector (hence 8.2) but if you want the last current word in shielding then sure, you can terminate 8.2 on an RJ45, there is nothing physically stopping you. 

 

CAT8 is only valid over maximum 30 meter lengths with 2 connectors. It's intended for server-to-switch work. In an audiophile context it has benefits, but it's not the primary intended purpose of the design. If you want to be super correct about it, put a router between your streamer and your rest of house and run CAT8 on that leg only.  

 

I got the ELECOM CAT8 cable as I was walking through a computer shop and saw it. There were no Amazon options at the time. Had there been one... I'd have bought it! So long as it meets spec it's good, doesn't matter where you buy it from. Spec is spec, and those that spend less... win!

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1 minute ago, Addicted to music said:

You'll see in the link and table that you provided that they specify Class I and Class II connectors. Class I refers to CAT8.1, Class II to CAT8.2. Class II is a non-RJ45 connector so not backward compatible.

 

See the following link: https://www.telegaertner.co.uk/infostream/facts-about-category-8-8-1-8-2-2/ with the relevant text quoted below:

Quote


 ISO/IEC Category 8.1 components are used to build class I links. They are backward-compatible with the RJ45 connector interface for Categories 6A, 6 and 5 specified by ISO/IEC 11801 and EN 50173.
ISO/IEC Category 8.2 components are used to build class II links. The draft standard defines different connector interfaces that are not compatible with one another. Category 8.2 components have a larger headroom than Category 8.1 components and are backward-compatible with Category 7A and 7 components with the appropriate plug. Category 8.2 connector interfaces are not backward-compatible with the RJ45 jacks of existing cabling.

 

But as @rmpfyf mentions, it may be possible to terminate an CAT8.2 spool of cable with a RJ45 jack.

 

 

 

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It can be done....

Where there’s a will there’s always a way.....?

 

 

 

  • Constructed of Category 8.2 S/FTP 2000 MHz cable, TERA Category 8.2 patch cords are backwards compatible with Category 7A/Class FA and lower cabling systems
  • TERA-to-RJ45 and RJ45-to-RJ45 patch cords allow the TERA Category 8.2 system to be easily connected to RJ45-equipped active electronics in MoR, EoR and ToR data center deployments
Edited by Addicted to music
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On 09/09/2019 at 4:51 PM, Ittaku said:

Random counter-observation just as a data point. Cat5 sounded the same as cat6 which sounded the same as cat7 to me. Did not try cat8, and I'm quite sure cat4 also sounds the same. Expectation bias or science? Again doesn't matter if they all sound the same to me. Your kilometreage may vary.

Couldn't disagree more! I found incremental improvements in sound quality moving up the scale. Cat5 and Cat6 were not great to my ears.

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3 minutes ago, was_a said:

Couldn't disagree more! I found incremental improvements in sound quality moving up the scale. Cat5 and Cat6 were not great to my ears.

You'll note I did not insist that others would find the same thing. I was simply presenting my counter-example since everyone else has been praising the differences they've experienced.

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14 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

You'll note I did not insist that others would find the same thing. I was simply presenting my counter-example since everyone else has been praising the differences they've experienced.

Not everyone.  I am quite skeptical.  I don't hear a difference.   Can't think of any valid reason why I should either.  

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I've only skimmed through the thread so apologies if this has been covered... But if it hasn't...

 

One problem with audiophile cables (apart from being pricey and not knowing their tech specs) is they are STP with metal connectors on both ends...

 

There is a mechanism by which these ethernet cables can sound different... STP cable with metal connectors on each end can provide a nice ground loop path, potentially carrying noise (AC leakage / ground currents) through to your analogue components. Whether there are any audible effects will always be system dependent.

 

To avoid this issue I use Cat 6 UTP with plastic connectors on each end, especially in the music listening setup.

 

You can get shielded ethernet cables with a 'floating shield' design, like Belden's 10GX series Cat 6A cable.

 

Or if going the DIY route, just make sure the shield is disconnected from the connectors and/or using plastic connectors...
 

Of course if you have a good handle of your system's grounding then it's a non issue.

 

And of course I'm talking about cables coupled to the analogue electronics in the music listening system... when I'm listening to Tidal I don't care about any ground loops they have in their server rooms, since most of us are fiber optically isolated from that.

 

But for stuff directly electrically coupled to your analogue electornics, it may be important... (depending on overall system)

Edited by rand129678
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I have read recently in this topic more about cable (the wire) types, whether CAT 5,6 etc and no one seems to have addressed the issue of the plugs/sockets - connector/s connection/s quality used on both ends.

 

I have found quite a difference in the quality of the actual cable (the wire) connectors and sockets, as shown in the photo.

The little gold plated brass of the contact face shown, are also the insulation displacement connections for the cable wires inside the connector.

 

Cable_1_SNA.jpg.3fe9ffc92decfca904fd1057c69e39b8.jpg

 

This issue of quality also applies to the socket.

 

This plug - socket quality could have at least some effect on the overall quality of the cable(including wire and plugs) and the ability of that cable to transfer data regardless of the actual cable(the wire) - CAT5,6etc itself.

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4 minutes ago, soundbyte said:

This plug - socket quality could have at least some effect on the overall quality of the cable(including wire and plugs) and the ability of that cable to transfer data regardless of the actual cable(the wire) - CAT5,6etc itself.

 

The shear number being employed by businesses world wide would indicate there is no major problem lurking here.  The vast majority of these connections remain solid and work well, despite some very adverse conditions at times.

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5 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

 

Hifi ethernet cables are bulls***. Seriously.

 

Whether it's machine control, medical, data backbone or whatever else the need for reliable high bandwidth transmission and according shielding exists long before some obtuse audiophile wankery decided it was a thing.

 

There is nothing new in Ethernet cables.

 

Just get a decent cable from a reliable place. If you're paying more than $50 to solve that problem (and $50 is ridiculously high end) then you're doing something seriously wrong. CAT8 cables exist, are real and cost less. If you're worried in roof, RS components will sell you CAT7 rolls. The audiophile industry has nothing of any serious value to add here.

 

Same goes for optical converters, isolation, low noise switching... The lot.

 

There indeed are parallels to the power cable debate in that we've a tendency to think the problem is new or expensive. Neither true.

@rmpfyf,

Based upon things said in this thread and other SNA threads about Ethernet in various contexts I decided to explore more than I had up till now.  I have some expensive cables cat7 cables and filters.  I have ordered some Cat8.  They have not arrived yet.

 

 

I acquired two moderate quality converters and a short optical fibre connection.  For me there was no doubt whatsoever that there was an impact using the converters and the cable.  What I cannot say with any certainty is whether the impact was just a difference or a benefit. 

 

 

I used the above when I had my own DAC.  I thought there was a benefit.  My DAC has now gone way for a few weeks for a major upgrade and I lent the converters to a friend.  In my friend’s system the impact was quite evident but definitely not beneficial.  We decided that in the conversion process the result was cleaner but something was missing.  There was less decay, a smaller sound stage with the voice more forward and the bass was less obvious.  Disappointing for me.

 

 

The loan DAC that I have is not good enough for me to make a decision as to whether for me there is an impact benefit and is it just system dependant or not.  I await the return of my DAC to try the converters again.

 

I shall report back.

John

 

Edited by Assisi
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48 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

The shear number being employed by businesses world wide would indicate there is no major problem lurking here.  The vast majority of these connections remain solid and work well, despite some very adverse conditions at times.

My time in computing / networking I have had quite a number fail, mostly the plug socket interface being the issue, most problems being the insulation displacement section of both plugs or sockets.

 

I am sure that whilst most connectors are capable there is always the possibility of getting inferior equipment that may need replacing for better quality.

 

It is interesting to have look at the actual connectors under a microscope/loupe, it is easy to see the differences between low and high quality components. YMMV.

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20 minutes ago, soundbyte said:

My time in computing / networking I have had quite a number fail,

 

Me too, but as a percentage, it was vanishingly small.  They are, on whole, very reliable.  Most common failure was just the tab breaking off and allowing the plug to come out of the socket. :)

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9 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

Me too, but as a percentage, it was vanishingly small.  They are, on whole, very reliable.  Most common failure was just the tab breaking off and allowing the plug to come out of the socket. :)

Been there, done that... still sounded the same ?

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5 hours ago, Assisi said:

@rmpfyf,

Based upon things said in this thread and other SNA threads about Ethernet in various contexts I decided to explore more than I had up till now.  I have some expensive cables cat7 cables and filters.  I have ordered some Cat8.  They have not arrived yet.

 

 

I acquired two moderate quality converters and a short optical fibre connection.  For me there was no doubt whatsoever that there was an impact using the converters and the cable.  What I cannot say with any certainty is whether the impact was just a difference or a benefit. 

 

 

I used the above when I had my own DAC.  I thought there was a benefit.  My DAC has now gone way for a few weeks for a major upgrade and I lent the converters to a friend.  In my friend’s system the impact was quite evident but definitely not beneficial.  We decided that in the conversion process the result was cleaner but something was missing.  There was less decay, a smaller sound stage with the voice more forward and the bass was less obvious.  Disappointing for me.

 

 

The loan DAC that I have is not good enough for me to make a decision as to whether for me there is an impact benefit and is it just system dependant or not.  I await the return of my DAC to try the converters again.

 

I shall report back.

John

 

 

IMHO success is a function of what factors we try to best create conditions for relative to what sensitivities we're working against. As @davewantsmoore suggests an ideal situation concerns complete insensitivity upstream, and I maintain that the difference between any ideal and what you've got is - where possible - a cable pull test. If that sounds no different don't spend a dime.

 

Optical converters are something of a mixed bag. Ideally they work very well. Their origins are in industrial applications - as an example they're used in large containerised batteries where control between battery controller and inverter is mission-critical in a time dependent manner - those links will be optical and redundant, because assing up the controls can have something go boom or worse. 

 

In an audiophile context, well, some things are applicable. Isolation across the optical connection is awesome, because that's what's intended. It's still a metal connection back into the PC and meaning both the last copper leg matters as does what powers the connection... A poor power characteristic on the converter is going to stuff things up somewhat. Also there's no control over packet size, network behaviours as a function of the converter, etc. There might be control but for most, limited ability. It's an axe of a solution if you know how to swing it. Without visibility of all factors there's a lot at play with the audiophile community relying on a few people to take a cashed punt and comment. But it's a punt.

 

I'll maintain that part is noise up the line - and Ethernet is noisy - again we're relying on superior cable spec for rejection as a primary feature, when it's secondary as a function of a bandwidth specification. There's also a pressing need to limit ethernet traffic to a streaming device so that the ethernet device is interrupting the CPU less often, and no cable can fix that.

 

Lots at play, holistic approaches required.

 

Would offer that a SFP receiver Ina motherboard is probably an awesome solution, into a local router just for music that runs optical similarly. It exists!

Edited by rmpfyf
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3 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

Lots at play, holistic approaches required.

@rmpfyf,

Same with me.  As I said I do not have my own DAC at the moment.  I am not in a position to make a definitive call on anything at the moment and await the return of the DAC upgraded.  Till then???

 

The converters that I have are from KSM.

 

John

 

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30 minutes ago, Assisi said:

@rmpfyf,

Same with me.  As I said I do not have my own DAC at the moment.  I am not in a position to make a definitive call on anything at the moment and await the return of the DAC upgraded.  Till then???

 

The converters that I have are from KSM.

 

John

 

 

Mine's also out for a grease, oil change and new bits! Sad life without our DACs...

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9 hours ago, aussievintage said:

 

Me too, but as a percentage, it was vanishingly small.  They are, on whole, very reliable.  Most common failure was just the tab breaking off and allowing the plug to come out of the socket. :)

That is the number one issue of networking issues,  the plugs are physically abused to the point where the plastic tab breaks off, not only is the damage here but also on the other end.  in some cases its that bad that the wires are damaged where you get devices to be  painfully slow where it times out with a time out error message.  Ive seen clients in shear desperation by plugging a damaged cable and expecting it to work,  the best you could do is request a brand new cable and cut up the damage one so it never gets used.

Also hence the reason why wifi works so well,  it eliminates this annoying physical issue.  

Edited by Addicted to music
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Just wanting to clarify... the primary purpose to use higher spec'ed Ethernet cable, like CAT8 is not to improve data rate (as realistically an audio data stream uses minimal data); the purpose is to provide superior shielding to minimise EMI entering the streamer/DAC?

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1 minute ago, Ed Sky said:

Just wanting to clarify... the primary purpose to use higher spec'ed Ethernet cable, like CAT8 is not to improve data rate (as realistically an audio data stream uses minimal data); the purpose is to provide superior shielding to minimise EMI entering the streamer/DAC?

That's their argument. Considering cat5 is capable of easily transmitting 24/768 data already, it's clearly not for the added bandwidth.

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