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CosmicJazz

Tri-amp 3 way speakers, still worth if using a multi-channel amp? (HiFi Stereo)

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14 minutes ago, CosmicJazz said:

Sorry, do not understood...

 

The application the I postes earlier is with 3 way speakers, passive crossover...

 

Sorry, our 'discussion' maybe confusing you.  The language difference doesn't help!  :(

 

Your speakers - from what you've just written, I am assuming they are 3-way ... with a passive XO between the amp(s) and the drivers?

 

If you can confirm this ... we can move on to providing you with helpful answers.

 

Andy

 

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Yes the language difference doesn't help much, but thanks for the efforts to understand me...

 

Well, the loudspeakers will be builded yet, for now I'm purchasing the drivers....

 

Still not decided between passive or active crossover solution... 

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9 hours ago, CosmicJazz said:

Well, the loudspeakers will be builded yet, for now I'm purchasing the drivers....

 

Still not decided between passive or active crossover solution... 

 

Aah, OK - thanks., CJ.  :thumb:

 

You said it will be a 3-way speaker - so if you go active ... you need 6  amplifier channels.

Or, if you only have 4 amplifier channels, you go active between woofers and mids/tweeters ... and passive between mids & tweeters.

 

So will you have 6 amplifier channels ... or 4?

 

Be aware also that making a successful speaker involves more than just applying filters to the drivers.  You will probably need a Zobel on one or more of the drivers, to smooth out its impedance curve.  This is whether you use active filters or passive filters.

 

Andy

 

 

 

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yes, it's a complex subject, still learning, not purchased the amplifiers..  just purchased the speakers drivers.

 

this days i will try to understand more about the active crossover solution, and their interaction with the speakers drivers, need to learn how to know if a determined crossover it will be a good or bad option for my specific speakers drivers.

 

i just understand the general concept: that is actively configure the frequency range that the drivers will operate, considering their frequency response specifications, but i'm sure that are much technical parameters involved on this situation, trying to understand what is "slope configuration", always see this feature on the equipments... appears that also is very important to consider the configuration of time and phase alignment, that a lot of people say that is much easier to do with digital crossovers..... and also, another subject that I need to understand if there's some specifications that I must consider when choosing the preamp, crossover, power amps, in order to know if the preamp will drive the crossover? more or less the same way  when you are checking if a determined preamp output voltage will drive a determined power amp, you have to check their output voltage and input sensitivity, and also impedances about of this....

 

Hehehehe as you can see, there's a lot of stuff to understand, if you can point out some basics points about all this subject, in a simple way, for at least I start to understand, I will be very grateful.

 

Many thanks, best regards.

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On 01/09/2019 at 7:02 PM, andyr said:

Surely, there already is a passive XO between the amps and the drivers.

Quote

I’m thinking about tri-amp the 3 way loudspeakers that I’m planning to build

 

 

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On 01/09/2019 at 9:15 PM, CosmicJazz said:

Still not decided between passive or active crossover solution... 

Designing a high performance crossover is the important part.

 

How you implement it..... either with passive components .... or some type of "active" crossover ..... is much much less important.

 

For example:    The reason the accuphase you posted earlier was "ridiculed" .... was because just applying a simple "2nd order" filter to your driver response.... will be very unlikely to result in a good crossover.

 

15 hours ago, CosmicJazz said:

need to learn how to know if a determined crossover it will be a good or bad option for my specific speakers drivers.

My recommendation is to look at published speaker projects online where the crossover has already been designed for the drivers.... and then ask "why did they choose it like that?".     ie.  work backwards from an already know solution.

 

Some of the best projects, will have "discussion" explaining how they designed the speaker, and why the crossover is like it is.

 

15 hours ago, CosmicJazz said:

i just understand the general concept: that is actively configure the frequency range that the drivers will operate

It is best to remember that a basic active crossover is not very different from a passive filter....  You can make the same filters (high pass, low pass, peaks, dips, etc.) with an active crossover, or passive filter.    It is usually just more difficult to make complicated filter shapes with a passive network.

 

Some active crossovers are very (very) simple (like the accuphase you posted earlier) .... some are more complicated (and will let you program anything you want).

 

 

This means with an active crossover you can make a complicated filter shape..... if you need a complicated filter shape, then good .... but you can also make a "stupid" filter shape more easily with an active crossover.    It is like drinking 10 cups of coffee and then doing a mathematics problems.    The coffee helps you get the answers more wrong, and in quicker time.

 

 

15 hours ago, CosmicJazz said:

appears that also is very important to consider the configuration of time and phase alignment, that a lot of people say that is much easier to do with digital crossovers.

Yes, may digital crossovers let you adjust the time delay...... in a passive crossover, to do the delay you have to move the driver backwards, or tilt the cabinet.

15 hours ago, CosmicJazz said:

I must consider when choosing the preamp, crossover, power amps, in order to know if the preamp will drive the crossover? more or less the same way  when you are checking if a determined preamp output voltage will drive a determined power amp, you have to check their output voltage and input sensitivity, and also impedances about of this....

Yes, but this is usually not a huge problem.

15 hours ago, CosmicJazz said:

Hehehehe as you can see, there's a lot of stuff to understand, if you can point out some basics points about all this subject, in a simple way, for at least I start to understand, I will be very grateful.

You are right... it is a complicated topic.   It is best to start very simple .... and choosing your own drivers and cabinet is very much trying to run before you can crawl.

 

Find a project where the drivers are selected and the crossover is designed.    Build that project  (and/or)  Ask questions about the project until you understand why it was constructed that way.   Then move on to the next project.

 

Unfortunately.  (As far as I know) there are not many books on the subject... and the ones I have seen, I would not really recommend.

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Hello, thanks for your reply sir, really appreciate.

 

Here's the drivers

 

Super Horn Tweeter: https://www.fostex.jp/products/t925a/

 
Compression Horn Driver: https://www.fostex.jp/products/d1405/ with Radial Horn: https://www.fostex.jp/products/h400/
 
 
 
*Note: woofer is different from the crossover plan, will buy the current model in production, because the W300A was discontinued.
Caixa.jpg.f6b4b623330cf9aac3c1bb8ead48c1f0.jpg
 
Passive cross over solution:
 
Crossover.gif.b7f93f41fb8d75bd7504fc360894b0b1.gif

 

 

About the time and phase issue: so it's possible to solve the issue moving the drivers manually? instead of doing it with active crossover configuration? the wood horn and tweeter are not attached on the cabinet,  you can be moved manually.

 

If you take a look at the drivers specs, and provide me some directions, about what I have to look when searching for a 3 way active crossover for this speaker system, I thank you very much.

 

Here's a hypothetical solution, let me know what do you think:

 

I'm thinking about in start to acquire this components,  Sony TA-N86 amps, and multi amp the tweeters, horns, and woofers, use the preamp from the same series, and also the crossover, take a look at the components please:

 

amp

http://www.thevintageknob.org/sony-TA-N86B.html

preamp

http://www.thevintageknob.org/sony-TA-E86B.html

crossover

http://www.thevintageknob.org/sony-TA-D88B.html

 

Many thanks, best regards.

Caixa.jpg

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by the way... what is the slope filter, that has a measurement of db octaves? still do not understood this function...

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4 hours ago, CosmicJazz said:

Here's the drivers

Enclosure plan

Oh, so this is an already completed speaker design (?!?)

 
Quote

About the time and phase issue: so it's possible to solve the issue moving the drivers manually? instead of doing it with active crossover configuration? the wood horn and tweeter are not attached on the cabinet,  you can be moved manually.

Yes.

Foxtex should be able to tell you exactly where to align the drivers so the passive crossover they have designed works.

 

Or... you have figure it out by building the crossovers, and then measuring the acoustic response form the drivers and moving the drivers until you get the response which indicates they are in phase alignment.

 

Quote

If you take a look at the drivers specs, and provide me some directions, about what I have to look when searching for a 3 way active crossover for this speaker system, I thank you very much.

You could program the responses for these passive crossovers into almost any programmable active crossover (so almost any would do) ..... but how to do that isn't easy.

 

Quote

If you're going to use these drivers.... You should build the crossovers designed by Fostex.

 

Otherwise, you will have to design the crossovers yourself.... and that will take lots and lots of learning  (many years).

 

 

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Thanks for the advices, do you think this Sony active crossover it will be very difficult to configure with this speakers? 

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Really? Not understood why? can you try to explain me again?

Many thanks.

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6 hours ago, CosmicJazz said:

Really? Not understood why? can you try to explain me again?

Many thanks.

What do you think you will do with the Sony crossover?

 

Make the filters from the Fostex picture?

Or.... Make some filters of your own design?

 

For the first... how will you know what to set the active crossover to?   You'd need to build or simulate the passive crossover to understand what it is your trying to replicate in the active crossover settings.

 

 

Why don't you just build the crossovers from the fostex picture? - It seems that they have already designed the speaker for you.

Edited by davewantsmoore

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You are right, i reached this conclusion today, better start with the fostex Passive crossover first, I don’t want take the risk end up buying a analog active crossover and not know how to configure properly, or buy one model that will not fit the requeriments of my drivers. 

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4 hours ago, CosmicJazz said:

You are right, i reached this conclusion today, better start with the fostex Passive crossover first, I don’t want take the risk end up buying a analog active crossover and not know how to configure properly, or buy one model that will not fit the requeriments of my drivers. 

It was wrong for me to say "impossible"..... but you are correct.   If you want to replicate the fostex crossover with an active crossover you will:

  • Need to figure out what the fostex crossover does
  • Get an active crossover which is capable of reproducing it (Sony is unlikely to to do that)

If you don't want to replicate the fostex crossover .... then you need to design your own crossover, and you need to:

 

  • Figure out how to design your own crossover
  • Get an active crossover which is capable of doing what you designed (Sony would be unlikely to do that)

 

 

Neither option is "easy".

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would  not like to replicate the fostex passive crossovers, just would like to know how to choose an analog active crossover that will fit the driver's needs.... 

 

 

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1 hour ago, CosmicJazz said:

would  not like to replicate the fostex passive crossovers, just would like to know how to choose an analog active crossover that will fit the driver's needs.... 

Analogue active crossovers like the ones you have posted ....  typically just add a simple high/low pass electrical filter to the signals .... and this is often not what you want to do when designing a speaker.

 

If you figure out what crossover is appropriate for the drivers .... and there is a analogue crossover box which will do the slopes you want .... then you can use that.

 

... but in short, if you are not able to figure out what crossover you should use and why .... and then determine if you have actually implemented it correctly  (eg. measure the drivers acoustic output) .... then you should build a crossover that has been designed by someone who can  (eg. the fostex passive crossover from the pictures you posted earlier).

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Thanks, yes, I think I will stick with the passive crossover recommended by Fostex at first, i will tell the speaker builder to make exactly as the Fostex plan.

Please, let me know if my interpretation of the Fostex crossover is correct, would like to know how it will looks like.

 

Crossover.jpg.45674a9e73f9bb9d9bbcd864707d2f46.jpg

The crossover will be assembles in a external box, this bellow are the atenuattors showed on the plan, already ordered two of they.

808850817_fostexrt100t2frontside.jpg.50f96ff873f397bbbfc5b6de3e840ad0.jpg

1142482039_fostexrt100t2inside.jpg.a54a9ca1e287f21aedda4027585694f5.jpg

 

My interpretation: 

 

The crossover will be assembled in a separated box, for what I saw on the R100T attenuators, they have two sets of +- terminals, one set is input, other is output, so +- wires goes out of the tweeter and horn, and are plugged in the +- input attenuator's terminals, after that, +- wires from tweeter and horns goes out from the +- output attenuator's terminals, after that, tweeter and horn +- wires are unified into the +- woofer wires, so in that way, I'm visualizing the crossover box with just one set of  +- -connectors, so this scheme not offer +- connections for each driver on the crossover box.

 
My interpretation of the crossover scheme is correct? 
 
Many thanks if you can tell me, best regards! 
Edited by CosmicJazz

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