Guest Eggcup The Daft Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Rob181 said: I can show you exactly the same number of peer reviewed tests that you can show me conclusively demonstrating there are no difference caused by burn in..... But peer reviewed tests that demonstrate no difference caused by burn in cannot happen, because that is the null hypothesis. Can we please get past that point? The science says no burn in. That has also been repeated in different ways again and again. And some people (does that include you, I've lost track) claim to have heard it. That has also been repeated again and again. Go back and read the comments about how to "prove" it does exist, and if you are that determined to prove something you apparently don't believe is that important anyway, go and do the relevant test. I'm pretty sure we've done all the talking now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob181 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 1 minute ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said: what was his first law of relativity pray tell Not until you send me a photo of you on your knees praying...then I will tell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted February 13, 2018 Volunteer Share Posted February 13, 2018 Just now, Rob181 said: Not until you send me a photo of you on your knees praying...then I will tell... I send it already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob181 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Just now, Eggcup The Daft said: But peer reviewed tests that demonstrate no difference caused by burn in cannot happen, because that is the null hypothesis. Can we please get past that point? Now my good man...this is where we disagree...it is NOT a null Hypothesis... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob181 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Just now, Sir Sanders Zingmore said: I send it already Not received...just one of a quaint old man bending over... Perhaps he was a brand manager that used to negotiate with Coles... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 [moderator] looks like thread run its course [end moderator post] 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloper Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 Goodaye all Got a pair of non working factory Kef Concerto's with the Idea of using them as Bailys in the future. Needed a driver and the mids had there terminals hanging off. (Thankyou to a SNA member for parts, donation to SNA made.) Fixed the terminals with nylon screws and some new tabs, capped the old crossover's and fired them up. Yuk, sounded awful nowhere near as good as my other Concerto's. Let them run late last night and most of the day so now have 15hrs on them. Wonderful now, sound nealy as good as my Kefkit set. These hadnt been used for years going by the dirt and proberly like me are bit slow to get moving. (3rd hip replacement) The new caps were a mixture of poly's and electro's done my way. Bit disapointed on how Kef insulated there terminals. So yes the 15hrs of burn in has made a difference for the better. Now all need to do is get onto the Baily cabinets and build fresh crossovers. regards Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyW Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 Likely a combination of the drivers needing to loosen up after years of inactivity and cap / wiring burn in. I've also found if tinned copper wire is used those need burn in all over again if unused for a time. Prior to burn in its just harsh and hard on the ears.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 Were the driver replacements new? Speaker driver burn in is a very real phenomenon with a known mechanism since they're electromechanical devices and demonstrable measurable changes over the first 100 hours or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloper Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 Goodaye all No old original drivers, new caps. Got about 20hrs on them now sounding better. Found a set of complete Bailys down the road. Do l sell these and get those??????? regards Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Petrus Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 If any enthusiasts out there don’t believe in speaker burn in, show them this YouTube video compliments of Steve Guttenberg....speaking to the godfather of speaker design....supporting your point Ittaku. https://youtu.be/PAA9SSsJbnI 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 2 hours ago, Trevor Petrus said: If any enthusiasts out there don’t believe in speaker burn in, show them this YouTube video compliments of Steve Guttenberg....speaking to the godfather of speaker design....supporting your point Ittaku. https://youtu.be/PAA9SSsJbnI I wouldn’t be listening to Steve Guttenberg, However, Any time spent with AJ is worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steffen Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 For me, the take-away points of this video (part 1) seem to be: break-in happens very quickly and usually in the factory, there is very little change after that in the longer term bass reflex boxes (not sure why anybody would want those ) are much more affected by the changing compliance of the bass driver’s spider I would expect manufacturers of quality speakers to measure and match the individual drivers before installing them, that in itself would require them to be broken in. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmid Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 I just bought a set of NEAT Acoustics Lota Alpha speakers with 3 drivers including Magnetic planar tweeter and they recommend a minimum 200 hour burn in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anandpkumar Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 I can't comment on speakers since I've bought all my speakers used. However, I did buy a new pair of headphones recently, and there was significant improvement between the first day and after a few days of break in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest niterida Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 I read a detailed study where they measured everything to do with a speakers performance / mechanical movement and they totally debunked speaker burn in. It was a while ago but I also recall that they somehow managed to measure the speakers over many years and there was absolutely no difference between them when new and years later. There was a slight difference between before using them and after a couple of hours but then after being unused for another couple of hours they returned to their original measurements. The cynics out there suggest that speaker burn in was a marketing ploy by manufacturers so people would listen to their new speakers and "Get used to them" rather than return them straight away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Marc Posted May 25, 2020 Administrator Share Posted May 25, 2020 10 minutes ago, niterida said: I read a detailed study where they measured everything to do with a speakers performance / mechanical movement and they totally debunked speaker burn in. It was a while ago but I also recall that they somehow managed to measure the speakers over many years and there was absolutely no difference between them when new and years later. There was a slight difference between before using them and after a couple of hours but then after being unused for another couple of hours they returned to their original measurements. The cynics out there suggest that speaker burn in was a marketing ploy by manufacturers so people would listen to their new speakers and "Get used to them" rather than return them straight away There's also no way to measure the characteristics of differing sound between speakers. Two speakers could potentially measure exactly the same, but be manufactured with two alternative cone materials for example, yet sound entirely different. Speaker break-in is absolutely a thing - and most of my running in is not done while sitting in front of the speakers. Generally I'll get them working, have a quick listen, and then leave them playing for 100+ hours and then return. The difference in most cases is not subtle, and is clearly not the result of getting used to them if you're not sitting in front of them. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Marc Posted May 25, 2020 Administrator Share Posted May 25, 2020 3 hours ago, Addicted to music said: I wouldn’t be listening to Steve Guttenberg, An unfair criticism without any justification. Why? He's probably done more for the promotion of high-fidelity sound to the masses than any other person in the industry. IMO, he's done for hi-fi as a whole, what Michael Fremer has done for analog and vinyl. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steffen Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 44 minutes ago, niterida said: The cynics out there suggest that speaker burn in was a marketing ploy by manufacturers so people would listen to their new speakers and "Get used to them" rather than return them straight away That makes it sound more malicious than it probably is. I think of manufacturers talking about hundreds of hours of speaker burn-in as helping their customers through the buyer’s remorse period Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satanica Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Steffen said: That makes it sound more malicious than it probably is. I think of manufacturers talking about hundreds of hours of speaker burn-in as helping their customers through the buyer’s remorse period And why can't the cheapskates do it themselves especially when they can cost tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars to their owners. I'm just waiting for one or a handful of manufacturers to come out with the Ultra Burnt In Series that have already been burnt in with only the best musical tracks so they're ready to go straight away fresh with a new marketing campaign. I wonder if I can patent that idea. Edited May 25, 2020 by Satanica 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheekyboy Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 (edited) On 18/08/2019 at 7:34 PM, sloper said: Goodaye all Got a pair of non working factory Kef Concerto's with the Idea of using them as Bailys in the future. Needed a driver and the mids had there terminals hanging off. (Thankyou to a SNA member for parts, donation to SNA made.) Fixed the terminals with nylon screws and some new tabs, capped the old crossover's and fired them up. Yuk, sounded awful nowhere near as good as my other Concerto's. Let them run late last night and most of the day so now have 15hrs on them. Wonderful now, sound nealy as good as my Kefkit set. These hadnt been used for years going by the dirt and proberly like me are bit slow to get moving. (3rd hip replacement) The new caps were a mixture of poly's and electro's done my way. Bit disapointed on how Kef insulated there terminals. So yes the 15hrs of burn in has made a difference for the better. Now all need to do is get onto the Baily cabinets and build fresh crossovers. regards Bruce On 19/08/2019 at 4:19 PM, sloper said: Goodaye all No old original drivers, new caps. Got about 20hrs on them now sounding better. Found a set of complete Bailys down the road. Do l sell these and get those??????? regards Bruce Hello Bruce, Those speakers will definitely benefit from letting them run in and the longer you can give them the better. I built a couple of pairs of Bailey's TLs back in the early '70s using Kef Concerto kits and I thought they were a very good loudspeaker and one pair did many years as my main speakers at the time. There is an old thread here started by Zaph back in 2015 and apart from highlighting a lot of interesting deigns, there is a couple of posts with the Radford FN10 Crossover schematic, which is a far better option than using the original Kef Concerto crossover. I remember building a pair of Alpair dual TL loudspeakers with The Rev many years ago and we used a Mark Audio single full range driver. The driver was superb, but from memory, it came with the recommendation from the manufacturer, not to get them much above a whisper for 800 hours. We didn't think it was a misprint/error, although we figured we'd both be residing in a nursing home long before we'd be able to turn them up.......................so needless to say, we didn't give them the recommended burn in time, which turned out to be more like 200 hours, but there was a considerable difference in the performance of the driver over that time. Cheers, Keith Edited May 25, 2020 by cheekyboy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Marc said: An unfair criticism without any justification. Why? He's probably done more for the promotion of high-fidelity sound to the masses than any other person in the industry. IMO, he's done for hi-fi as a whole, what Michael Fremer has done for analog and vinyl. No arguments from me for him being a promoter in hi fidelity..... However, everything is measurable, he doesn’t believe that in measurements alone can provide accurate and pleasing sound to the ear..... if only he had the chance to live with this person he’s interviewing in this and experience what he’s experienced: Edited May 25, 2020 by Addicted to music 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 (edited) The same paper which did these then went on to argue that the differences are too small to be audible. However the fact remains that unlike something like passive cables which measure identically before and after hundreds of hours of burn-in, at the very least speaker drivers definitely measure differently before and after break-in. So there definitely IS a difference before and after break-in, and it's up to the reader and/or listener to decide if that difference is audible. In my experience it most definitely is. In another example, and one that affected my own speaker designs, the table that came with the driver described the following: However the driver impedance graph showed the following: Here you'll see the impedance peak (which tells you where the driver's resonant frequency is) shows the Fs is about 26Hz here, which is much higher than the quoted 19.1Hz. I directly questioned the manufacturer about this and they said the sample impedance graph came from a driver that hadn't been burnt in whereas the typical parameters were after 200 hours of burn-in. That is a huge difference in resonant frequency and would change tuning entirely of the speaker in a ported design. If the speaker was rightly designed with the burn-in resonant frequency in mind, then when it's first assembled it will sound quite different indeed. Closed designs would be much less affected though. Edited May 25, 2020 by Ittaku 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steffen Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Ittaku said: The same paper which did these then went on to argue that the differences are too small to be audible. However the fact remains that unlike something like passive cables which measure identically before and after hundreds of hours of burn-in, at the very least speaker drivers definitely measure differently before and after break-in. So there definitely IS a difference before and after break-in, and it's up to the reader and/or listener to decide if that difference is audible. In my experience it most definitely is. It would be interesting to see how these changes progress (or settle) throughout the break-in period, with snapshots taken after 6, 60, 600, 6000 minutes, or so. EDIT: My guess would be that most of the change takes place during the first few minutes. That’s also what Andrew Jones alluded to in the Guttenberg interview. Edited May 25, 2020 by Steffen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addicted to music Posted May 25, 2020 Share Posted May 25, 2020 43 minutes ago, Steffen said: EDIT: My guess would be that most of the change takes place during the first few minutes. That’s also what Andrew Jones alluded to in the Guttenberg interview. Unless, also what Andrew Jones alluded; that you apply such power that the coil is smashing at the ends of the magnet assembly that stretch the spider beyond it’s limitations, or an incorrect spider that’s not fit for the driver. He did go onto to used a stretched spring that’s stretched beyond its limit and won’t return to its original shape... as an analogy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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