Phil Williams Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 I start this story with a Cyrus Lyric 5 and new Dynaudio Special Forties. Thinking I had spent the best part of $10k I settled into what I thought was a great match. The system I felt was light in bass and moved to add a subwoofer. I then found it wasn't bass I was missing it was low range presence in the sounds like the deep tones of a voice. Something in the area I understand is say around 150hz to 500 hz. So I then swapped out the amplifier stage for a Linn280 power amp (1980's) still using the Cyrus as a source. In came the power in the voice and the voice appeared in the room rather than behind the speaker. I then swapped out preamp and power amp with a Naim Pre/power (1970's) and the voice became even more focused, more central, right in front of me, almost the same level of improvement again. Only thing noticed was the top end and bottom end became weaker. I then added a Krell preamp, runnign the Cyrus as a source, Krell preamp L280 Power. THe best outcome so far. Separately I then tried my Cyrus Lyric separately powering my old Mission Elegante e82 (a great speaker in the day) and the width of the soundstage was double, super wide but the voice disappeared and the bass was gone. Itchy and Scratchy and could not listen to for more than 2 minutes. This I determined with my hifi buddy we called missing Musicality/Listenability. So question I have is where do I find the utopia of Naim voice in the room, with dynamic soundstage, crisp highs and strong bass. My feeling is the Cyrus does the right job as a source, the Dynaudios will do what they are told so the bit in the middle pre/power/integrated needs to step up. Your thoughts please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sub Sonic Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 Just a quick question, I assume the speakers were always in phase with each other, i.e. the reds to reds and blacks to blacks when plugging in the speaker cables? The audible changes you have noticed seem pretty dramatic hence the question. Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wen Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 sounds like a common story when trying to get the best sound in a room , you read people have gear for a short time , resell and try something else in search of audio nirvana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Williams Posted August 14, 2019 Author Share Posted August 14, 2019 15 hours ago, wen said: sounds like a common story when trying to get the best sound in a room , you read people have gear for a short time , resell and try something else in search of audio nirvana True, it was interesting finding the sounds move around however not sure its the room, more component matches. Maybe I have the best of all worlds i.e new source, 20 year old Preamp 40 year old Power. Just found it unusual that replacing one component appeared to change not the EQ but the presence of a voice from back to front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Williams Posted August 14, 2019 Author Share Posted August 14, 2019 16 hours ago, Sub Sonic said: Just a quick question, I assume the speakers were always in phase with each other, i.e. the reds to reds and blacks to blacks when plugging in the speaker cables? The audible changes you have noticed seem pretty dramatic hence the question. Cheers, SS Thanks but they are setup right, maybe I should try inverted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 17 hours ago, philwill1971@gmail.com said: So question I have is where do I find the utopia of Naim voice in the room, with dynamic soundstage, crisp highs and strong bass. My biased opinion would be valves. Try voicing it with a valve preamp. here's one that's an absolute bargain: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sub Sonic Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 2 hours ago, philwill1971@gmail.com said: Thanks but they are setup right, maybe I should try inverted? No, provided they are set up in phase with each other they won’t be causing the differences you are hearing. Cheers, SS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 Chances are your head is in one of the many room modes that kill bass. Doesn't matter what equipment you are using. At very least walk around the room and notice the differences. Better is to use a mic and REW to identify where best to place the speakers and listening position. Of course many living situations limit your choice. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Williams Posted August 15, 2019 Author Share Posted August 15, 2019 2 hours ago, Nigel said: Chances are your head is in one of the many room modes that kill bass. Doesn't matter what equipment you are using. At very least walk around the room and notice the differences. Better is to use a mic and REW to identify where best to place the speakers and listening position. Of course many living situations limit your choice. Appreciate that note on bass, this was more the bass not generated by a sub or sucked up by a corner but the gravel tones in a male voice as an example. I understand lots of room correction attends to the sub and 20-120hz area, this is more voice which I understand is more 150 - 300hz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryO Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, philwill1971@gmail.com said: Appreciate that note on bass, this was more the bass not generated by a sub or sucked up by a corner but the gravel tones in a male voice as an example. I understand lots of room correction attends to the sub and 20-120hz area, this is more voice which I understand is more 150 - 300hz I agree with Nigel, try moving around in the room back and forth from your usual seating position and you might get a pleasant surprise, if it doesn’t help no biggie, at least it didn’t cost you anything to try. cheers Terry Edited August 15, 2019 by TerryO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steffen Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 Well, 150-300Hz is still SBIR country, we're talking somewhere between 20cm and 60cm here. Are the side or front walls, or the floor, in that sort of distance range from the bass drivers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Williams Posted August 16, 2019 Author Share Posted August 16, 2019 I did try moving the Dynaudios around, especially 15cm against the wall the bass completely disappeared. The Dynaudios are coming across very directional. Room attached Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steffen Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 Is that 15cm from the front baffle of the speakers (where the bass driver is) or the back of the speaker (facing the wall)? You need to measure from the centre of the bass driver. You can predict the frequencies affected by SBIR extinction by calculating 343/(d*4), with d being the distance to the reflective wall/floor in meters. The SBIR effect drops off with increasing distance to the wall, since the energy of the reflected sound wave decreases with the square of the distance travelled, which is why ceilings are not usually implicated. Please don't ask me how to measure the distance with rear-ported speakers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steffen Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 Forgot to add, your room layout is reasonably complex and hard to predict, and if you did REW measurements you'd be presented with a perplexing set of results. Experimentation is going to be most promising, I reckon. I'd start by moving the speakers away from the front wall about at least a meter. That may not be an acceptable final position, but it should have some audible result, and tell you whether this is the sort of problem at play with your setup. There is also a possibility of the two front speakers interacting and conspiring to kill bass. This can be tested by changing the distance between the speakers (in 5-10cm steps) and their toe-in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sub Sonic Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 Subwoofer positioning/integration could be causing some of your bass issues - I’d suggest leaving it switched off while trying to resolve the bass issues, and once they are sorted, working on integrating the sub. As others have indicated, having a decent measurement microphone and software would be an invaluable tool to work through the issues. Cheers, SS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 On 14/08/2019 at 3:59 PM, philwill1971@gmail.com said: 150hz to 500 hz In this frequency range it is extremely important to always be sitting in exactly the same location (and to have the speakers in the same location) when comparing electronics. It might be that some of the older gear you used had a non-flat response curve (rolling off above 500 to 1000Hz). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al.M Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) Try moving the speakers right about 1m so the left speakers aren’t half firing into the stepped left wall area, toe in the speakers so they fire about 30cm past your ears and even try place sofa against wall, rear of speakers 30-80cm from wall, double check speaker and other audio cable connections are not out of phase or mixed up some how. Most speakers except for ominidirectional design are meant to be quite directional anyway or have a sweet spot so not sure what you mean, perhaps you are not used to how an accurate speaker is meant to be. Edited August 21, 2019 by Al.M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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