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Fibre-optic ethernet connection

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Posted (edited)
On 20/05/2020 at 9:08 PM, Cruncher said:

 

 Above 10GE ( 40GE, 100GE, 400GE) there is no Ethernet over copper and there will never be. 

 

 

Sorry to burst your bubble but there is and have been around for years (10G & 40G), although 100G and 400G copper do exist, we don't bother with copper as the fibre ones are just easier to work with and we have the power to play with 

 

Funny enough they are called DAC cables, Direct Attach Cables 

Edited by Hytram

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On 22/05/2020 at 6:40 PM, Cruncher said:

 

It turned out a tech had decided to “save the company money” and not buy those expensive ( $30 ?) retail cables so he bought a spool of Cat6 cabling for a bargain price, a bag of Ethernet connectors and a terminating tool, all off the Internet.

 

 

$30?

 

I have a heap here you can have them for $25, bargain! I will still make $20 profit on each 

 

Seeing Cat6 leads are cheap, if you are counting labour and materials, buying made ones is cheaper that making them in a Office and above size network. 

 

Not saying making is not an option, any one qualified can make them with no data issues , probably only worth it for runs where you need exact length down to the centimetre. 

 

Except on single connection installs or where someone else supplies the leads, I try to use ultra thin Cat6 cables these days, no thicker than a fibre patch lead, just so easy to patch and manage. Eliminates a fair bit of cable management in rack space, and rack space = money. 

 

 

But as mentioned here in this thread, this thread has go nothing to with price or even common sense, it's got to do with sound quality and as we all know, the things that shouldn't make a difference sometimes do. 

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Posted (edited)

 

11 hours ago, Hytram said:
On 20/05/2020 at 9:08 PM, Cruncher said:

 

 Above 10GE ( 40GE, 100GE, 400GE) there is no Ethernet over copper and there will never be. 

 

 

Sorry to burst your bubble but there is and have been around for years (10G & 40G), although 100G and 400G copper do exist

 

No bubble burst here, thanks for picking up my inaccuracy. I  should have been more specific when I posted.

 

My post should have read ..... Above 10GE ( 40GE, 100GE, 400GE) there is no Ethernet over Twisted Pair copper and there will never be. Unless I am mistaken, there is no standard for running 40GE, 100GE, 400GE over twisted pair copper ( i.e. cable with RJ-45 connectors).

 

Also, given the context of the discussion e.g home audio and the audio products that have been mentioned had RJ-45 ports etc. I felt people were most likely using Twisted Pair copper Ethernet cables. I did think about modifying my post, but in the end I didn't as I felt most people would get the jist of the post regardless.

 

You are correct, you can run 10GE / 40GE / 100GE over copper cables using Twinaxial Cables or sometimes called Direct Attach Cables, not Twisted Pair ( e.g with SFP, SFP+ connectors). Even still, I have not seen any specs for 400GE over Twin-ax copper.

 

 

Edited by Cruncher

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4 hours ago, Cruncher said:

 

 

Also, given the context of the discussion e.g home audio and the audio products that have been mentioned had RJ-45 ports etc. I felt people were most likely using Twisted Pair copper Ethernet cables. I did think about modifying my post, but in the end I didn't as I felt most people would get the jist of the post regardless.

 

 

 

On the contrary, 

 

This thread is about fibre optic Ethernet connections, if using a switch capabile of a fibre optic connection you will use a SFP port 

 

The DAC cables are a SFP connection at each end. Seeing running the Ethernet path through 2 switches seems to be the latest fad, so its very valid option 

 

The Etheregen switch runs a SFP slot too

 

Basically this is the Ethernet version of toslink VS coax. 

 

If people are experimenting with what sound better, then using all the different speeds and modes of fibre and comparing the different speeds of DAC cables would have to be on the cards, hey, I have read one supplier's claims they can hear the difference between a 2mt and 3mt single mode patch lead (I think they were Flapping harder on one of the double blind test) 

 

BTW, 40G over twisted pair does exist 

 

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4 hours ago, Hytram said:

This thread is about fibre optic Ethernet connections, if using a switch capabile of a fibre optic connection you will use a SFP port 

In the audiophile Ethernet switch thread people are swapping switches. In the Ethernet cable thread people are swapping cables (twisted pair).

 

In the Ethernet cable thread I have not seen is people having two SFP devices ( source / destination, two Ethernet Switches ) and A/B testing Twisted Pair vs Twin-Ax , Twisted Pair vs Optical, Twin-ax vs Optical.

 

In my mind, if Ethernet is implemented properly ( standards conformance is a excellent start) then you should not hear the difference, which a lot of people experience. So I assume that some devices have poor implementations, or something specific to that implementation.  I am keen to track down the root cause. I don't agree with the reasons  offered by some manufactures.

 

 

4 hours ago, Hytram said:

Basically this is the Ethernet version of toslink VS coax. 

While I hear what you are saying, I think it is different.

 

I have a CD transport and a DAC. I feel I could A/B toslink v.s. coax fairly reliably.

 

When I read the forums I see people adding bridges  ( USB -> TosLink, Ethernet -> USB etc) and re-clockers / re-generators.. What amazes me is the massive variety of sources and playout devices, which all seem to have lots of moving parts. ( just see the thread on building a audiophile music server here).

 

With more pure-play Ethernet and Optical, I see people inserting Optical media converters into the chain (E/O/E)or optical to their device ( O/E or E /O).

 

4 hours ago, Hytram said:

If people are experimenting with what sound better, then using all the different speeds and modes of fibre and comparing the different speeds of DAC cables would have to be on the cards.

I have not seen people A/ B in all the Ethernet speed variations ( 10M, 1G, 10G ...) and Optical combinations (SM, MM etc). I think you are are trying to cause mischief by suggesting this.

 

5 hours ago, Hytram said:

I have read one supplier's claims they can hear the difference between a 2mt and 3mt single mode patch lead

Oh dear.

 

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On 20/05/2020 at 9:08 PM, Cruncher said:

Above 10GE ( 40GE, 100GE, 400GE) there is no Ethernet over copper and there will never be.

Your dinner parties suck.

 

Sure those standards are implemented on copper.   But only on short cables.

 

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23 hours ago, Hytram said:

If people are experimenting with what sound better, then using all the different speeds and modes of fibre and comparing the different speeds of DAC cables would have to be on the cards

LOL

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

Your dinner parties suck.

Ok .... I now know who's not going to be invited then .... 😀

 

2 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

Sure those standards are implemented on copper.   But only on short cables.

Maybe the speed comparison was clumsy. When I first looked at 10GE over twisted pair cable, a transceiver would consume 10 Watts ( 2 x 10w = 20W cable). When I questioned this with one of the engineers he said that it was getting dis-proportionality harder to ramp up the speed on twisted pair. Each jump in Ethernet speed meant tighter specs cables, more complex transmitters and receivers, more signal processing, more cost and shorter maximum cable length ( which you highlighted) to the point he predicted it would only be good for patch cables or back plane lengths. You will not see this for optical cables.

 

My Source and streamer are connected via a 1GE cable that is about 10 meters long. It runs through the ceiling past down lights and transformers and past the back of the fridge. Having read some manufactures threads about  noisy Ethernet, phy problems, jitter, ground plane noise from incoming traffic etc and I decided  swap it out, I would probably switch over to Optical. It would give me isolation, and upgrade path and allow me to chose transceivers (TX / RX) built by a company that actually understands digital transmission, because the audio companies are clearly struggling. And I could do this at what I consider a reasonable price.

 

The best thing about Ethernet and Optical is we benefit from economies of scale and silicon price curve.

 

p.s I could invite @Hytram over and he could bring his favorite Optical cable and we could listen to them. Maybe while eating Tasmanian lobster and Tasmanian fine wine or Gin. 

 

Edited by Cruncher

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