Jump to content

Sign in to follow this  
aertex

analogue active crossovers users findings

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

A general question I guess for those who have used analogue active crossovers in speaker projects along the way. There are several makes and models of course and both pro audio or home audio based types. Also older and new current designs. Any comments on 4 way Pioneer D-23 experiences are particularly of interest

 

So, with above as background, what experiences have any users had in regard to achieving satisfying results in multi way speaker systems? Was flexibility limitations of the unit enough? Was there a need to move on to alternative crossover options quickly or did you live with the analogue unit for a decent period of time?

 

All relevant comments would be of assistance 

 

Edited by aertex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Before I went DSP, I built my own for both home systems and my PA for maybe 15 years. There are only a couple of ways of building them in generic blocks, and they're limited in what you can do with them, ie limited types of slopes and orders, usually no EQ and minimal delay via allpass.

 

I'd never use one again, given the choice and that's with the ability to tailor the slopes to the acoustic result I desire, not the generic commercial units which typically only only allow one order and just adjustable xover frequency.

 

1 hour ago, aertex said:

Any comments on 4 way Pioneer D-23 experiences are particularly of interest

Looks cute if you're into the big vintage box thing, but one slope (BW3), but lots of limitations. No EQ, no delay, only one slope order, a million electros in the signal path, it's old so no idea of condition or reliability and tracking problems between the multiple pots that it uses to set frequencies.

 

The only advantage is that it's relatively simple to use. If you're going to implement an active xover of any type well, you need to a) know what you're doing and actually trying to achieve, and b) have a decent measuring rig.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I built 2 of Rod Elliott's P09 analogue active XOs when I got into active XOs for my Maggies, about 25 years ago (2 bcoz each PCB gave me 3-way, mono).

 

See here:  http://sound.whsites.net/project09.htm

 

These are set up to deliver 24dB slopes but as this is done by having 2x12dB filters in series ... it's easy enough to drop back to 12dB for some - if not all - the slopes.  And because I had been on a TAFE night course to understand analogue filters, I bought lspCAD at the same time and was able to implement an 18dB filter for my bass panels (which is the stock slope).  So I didn't actually use 24dB filters, anywhere!  :)

 

I used lspCAD to decide what my roll-off points should be (for the smoothest overall FR) - then Rod's calculator gives you the component values you need to put on the PCB.  (I didn't want to have to keep unsoldering/resoldering components to experiment.)

 

I used this quite happily for over 20 years till we moved into our current house where, because I added a pair of subs which needed delay applied to the Maggies (for time-alignment) ... I switched over to a miniDSP unit.

 

Andy

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Alan,

 

I had the D23 for a while along with a number of others.   I personally see them as a good tool to use as part of the design of the speaker system.  To figure out best crossover point, what cutover slope and attenuation levels.     Ultimately though, a 3-4way active setup with 3-4 power amps is too much for me to sit comfortably and enjoy the system long term.  Too many variables (for me).     I'd prefer a passive setup with just one 'ultimate amp' (addition of active subwoofer(s) is OK though). 

 

With my active systems, I could hear the 'digital edge' that pro audio units were introducing in a intimate listening home environment.    No doubting their flexibility... thus great tool for design/development imo.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Posted (edited)

Thanks A9X and Andy. Thanks for taking the time to respond with the input you have. Just to clarify I have a D-23 but dont plan on building any active analogue variety at all. It is only the commercially available finished varieties I ask the questions of. I pretty much havent used the D-23 yet myself. D-23 has 6, 12 and 18db BW slopes

 

I also dont plan on using such a crossover as an end point, rather a starting point tool for maybe several multiway horn based set ups with various driver and horn combinations I am gravitating towards having collected the numerous bit along the way

 

Andy-looks like you has some success and satisfaction with Rod Elliott's P09 analogue active XOs? Cant be that bad as part of a crossover journey?

 

Tuyen - thanks for your bit too. I had a feeling you had used D-23 at some point

Edited by aertex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I may have to take parts of what I said back, as I am running a Najda DSP xo/preamp unit  for my Beyma beasts.   

 

The Najda with separate linear psus for digital and analog circuits + discrete opamps   really makes it a step above sonically over the usual units designed for the PA world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, aertex said:

Andy - looks like you has some success and satisfaction with Rod Elliott's P09 analogue active XOs? Cant be that bad as part of a crossover journey?

 

 

I certainly did, aertex - it's a great PCB.  :thumb:  It was more than just 'part' of a crossover journey - I would still be using it except that adding subs to my system required me to introduce 'delay' to my mains - which meant that a digital XO was needed.  :)

 

Unlike tuyen, I have not heard a 'digital edge' that he said his pro audio units were introducing.  Then again, I haven't used digital XOs designed for PA systems!  :lol:

 

Andy

 

Edited by andyr

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My first forsy into analog actives was with a Rane ac23. Gives you 2x 3way or  1x5way. Also extremely transparent.

Very simple to get you up and running by ear, but like anything like this measurements are needed get truly get your bearings and get them correct.

But they have no peq feature 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


On 10/07/2019 at 10:50 AM, aertex said:

So, with above as background, what experiences have any users had in regard to achieving satisfying results in multi way speaker systems? Was flexibility limitations of the unit enough?

Design the crossover and filters for the drivers....   and THEN choose an active crossover which lets you implement the filters as you require.

 

There are two things which will dominate your result.

 

Did you design good filters?

Did you implement them correctly (as designed)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, aertex said:

I also dont plan on using such a crossover as an end point, rather a starting point tool for maybe several multiway horn based set ups with various driver and horn combinations I am gravitating towards having collected the numerous bit along the way

They'll all need different filters.

If you listen to the different speakers with nonoptimal filters, then that will dominate how they sound.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/07/2019 at 1:12 PM, aertex said:

I also dont plan on using such a crossover as an end point, rather a starting point tool for maybe several multiway horn based set ups with various driver and horn combinations I am gravitating towards having collected the numerous bit along the way

Agree with Dave, you'll need multiple settings. And also delay so the only real option is DSP. Been there done that with large multi way FLHs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Using D23 for sometime on 3 way and 4 way active Horns..

 

Like the ease of use compared to the DEQX.

Super versatile, enables gain correction to balace driver or tube amps or lower dB drivers.

Time delay can be achieved via the 3  crossover slopes, phase alters.

All analogue signal purity.

 

The thing rocks like many of yesterday’s precision offerings..

 

Bryson or Accuphase and others use cards to set parameters - too hard unless exact freq cuts / filters are know..

 

Yes complex to rig up in terms of multiple amps, interconnects, speaker cables, multi amplifier gain differences etc.

 

Once an all active setup with the likes of a D23 is implemented, you’ll be in awe, seriously.

Just beware as you may be drawn to casual listening at double the normal volume.

 

Would like another D23 .

Enjoy V 

 

 

 

 

 

5557DAE2-9DF0-4A5D-A09E-7BD55AF264B0.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


i upgraded the Yam NS1000 by semictively driving them - just completed and i must say I m really pleased .  I emulated  friend of mine Ken Wilkes in UK did.
Rod Elliots P09 device as a 2 way stereo eXO.   
Highpass to poweramp  to a simple 2 way passive XO  to tweets n mids. 
Low pass to poweramp direct to woofers .

You can by adding more Rod Elliot P09 boards build 3 way (or more) eXO  if u want to be fully active .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, La scala said:

Using D23 for sometime on 3 way and 4 way active Horns..

 

Like the ease of use compared to the DEQX.

Super versatile, enables gain correction to balace driver or tube amps or lower dB drivers.

Time delay can be achieved via the 3  crossover slopes, phase alters.

All analogue signal purity.

 

The thing rocks like many of yesterday’s precision offerings..

 

Bryson or Accuphase and others use cards to set parameters - too hard unless exact freq cuts / filters are know..

 

Yes complex to rig up in terms of multiple amps, interconnects, speaker cables, multi amplifier gain differences etc.

 

Once an all active setup with the likes of a D23 is implemented, you’ll be in awe, seriously.

Just beware as you may be drawn to casual listening at double the normal volume.

 

Would like another D23 .

Enjoy V 

 

 

 

 

 

5557DAE2-9DF0-4A5D-A09E-7BD55AF264B0.jpeg

Think I just realised how "girly man" my setup is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, La scala said:

Time delay can be achieved via the 3  crossover slopes, phase alters.

Hardly. Not for long path length differences between FLH sections. It certainly would not supply anywhere near enough delay to correct TOF differences between the sections of my KHorns and LS for example, let alone my big 5 way FLH system these developed into.

 

5 hours ago, La scala said:

All analogue signal purity.

Yeah, all that purity from dozens of old electros in the signal path. This 'purity' comment has far, far more to do with a philosophical POV than an engineering one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 10/07/2019 at 8:50 AM, aertex said:

A general question I guess for those who have used analogue active crossovers in speaker projects along the way....

I’d love to see your JBL 5500 clones. The real deal ones are impressive.

 

Also the active D23 will assist you in designing a passive x over by determining ideal values  to suit your Horns etc.

 

ta V 

Edited by La scala
Which to add photo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...