analogue active crossovers users findings

[aertex]

A general question I guess for those who have used analogue active crossovers in speaker projects along the way. There are several makes and models of course and both pro audio or home audio based types. Also older and new current designs. Any comments on 4 way Pioneer D-23 experiences are particularly of interest

 

So, with above as background, what experiences have any users had in regard to achieving satisfying results in multi way speaker systems? Was flexibility limitations of the unit enough? Was there a need to move on to alternative crossover options quickly or did you live with the analogue unit for a decent period of time?

 

All relevant comments would be of assistance 

 

Edited July 10, 2019 by aertex

[A9X]

Before I went DSP, I built my own for both home systems and my PA for maybe 15 years. There are only a couple of ways of building them in generic blocks, and they're limited in what you can do with them, ie limited types of slopes and orders, usually no EQ and minimal delay via allpass.

 

I'd never use one again, given the choice and that's with the ability to tailor the slopes to the acoustic result I desire, not the generic commercial units which typically only only allow one order and just adjustable xover frequency.

 

1 hour ago, aertex said:

Any comments on 4 way Pioneer D-23 experiences are particularly of interest

Looks cute if you're into the big vintage box thing, but one slope (BW3), but lots of limitations. No EQ, no delay, only one slope order, a million electros in the signal path, it's old so no idea of condition or reliability and tracking problems between the multiple pots that it uses to set frequencies.

 

The only advantage is that it's relatively simple to use. If you're going to implement an active xover of any type well, you need to a) know what you're doing and actually trying to achieve, and b) have a decent measuring rig.

[andyr]

I built 2 of Rod Elliott's P09 analogue active XOs when I got into active XOs for my Maggies, about 25 years ago (2 bcoz each PCB gave me 3-way, mono).

 

See here:  http://sound.whsites.net/project09.htm

 

These are set up to deliver 24dB slopes but as this is done by having 2x12dB filters in series ... it's easy enough to drop back to 12dB for some - if not all - the slopes.  And because I had been on a TAFE night course to understand analogue filters, I bought lspCAD at the same time and was able to implement an 18dB filter for my bass panels (which is the stock slope).  So I didn't actually use 24dB filters, anywhere! 

 

I used lspCAD to decide what my roll-off points should be (for the smoothest overall FR) - then Rod's calculator gives you the component values you need to put on the PCB.  (I didn't want to have to keep unsoldering/resoldering components to experiment.)

 

I used this quite happily for over 20 years till we moved into our current house where, because I added a pair of subs which needed delay applied to the Maggies (for time-alignment) ... I switched over to a miniDSP unit.

 

Andy

 

[tuyen]

Hi Alan,

 

I had the D23 for a while along with a number of others.   I personally see them as a good tool to use as part of the design of the speaker system.  To figure out best crossover point, what cutover slope and attenuation levels.     Ultimately though, a 3-4way active setup with 3-4 power amps is too much for me to sit comfortably and enjoy the system long term.  Too many variables (for me).     I'd prefer a passive setup with just one 'ultimate amp' (addition of active subwoofer(s) is OK though). 

 

With my active systems, I could hear the 'digital edge' that pro audio units were introducing in a intimate listening home environment.    No doubting their flexibility... thus great tool for design/development imo.

 

 

[aertex]

Thanks A9X and Andy. Thanks for taking the time to respond with the input you have. Just to clarify I have a D-23 but dont plan on building any active analogue variety at all. It is only the commercially available finished varieties I ask the questions of. I pretty much havent used the D-23 yet myself. D-23 has 6, 12 and 18db BW slopes

 

I also dont plan on using such a crossover as an end point, rather a starting point tool for maybe several multiway horn based set ups with various driver and horn combinations I am gravitating towards having collected the numerous bit along the way

 

Andy-looks like you has some success and satisfaction with Rod Elliott's P09 analogue active XOs? Cant be that bad as part of a crossover journey?

 

Tuyen - thanks for your bit too. I had a feeling you had used D-23 at some point

Edited July 10, 2019 by aertex

[tuyen]

I may have to take parts of what I said back, as I am running a Najda DSP xo/preamp unit  for my Beyma beasts.   

 

The Najda with separate linear psus for digital and analog circuits + discrete opamps   really makes it a step above sonically over the usual units designed for the PA world.

[andyr]

9 hours ago, aertex said:

Andy - looks like you has some success and satisfaction with Rod Elliott's P09 analogue active XOs? Cant be that bad as part of a crossover journey?

 

 

I certainly did, aertex - it's a great PCB.    It was more than just 'part' of a crossover journey - I would still be using it except that adding subs to my system required me to introduce 'delay' to my mains - which meant that a digital XO was needed. 

 

Unlike tuyen, I have not heard a 'digital edge' that he said his pro audio units were introducing.  Then again, I haven't used digital XOs designed for PA systems!  

 

Andy

 

Edited July 10, 2019 by andyr

[joz]

My first forsy into analog actives was with a Rane ac23. Gives you 2x 3way or  1x5way. Also extremely transparent.

Very simple to get you up and running by ear, but like anything like this measurements are needed get truly get your bearings and get them correct.

But they have no peq feature 

[davewantsmoore]

On 10/07/2019 at 10:50 AM, aertex said:

So, with above as background, what experiences have any users had in regard to achieving satisfying results in multi way speaker systems? Was flexibility limitations of the unit enough?

Design the crossover and filters for the drivers....   and THEN choose an active crossover which lets you implement the filters as you require.

 

There are two things which will dominate your result.

 

Did you design good filters?

Did you implement them correctly (as designed)?

[davewantsmoore]

23 hours ago, aertex said:

I also dont plan on using such a crossover as an end point, rather a starting point tool for maybe several multiway horn based set ups with various driver and horn combinations I am gravitating towards having collected the numerous bit along the way

They'll all need different filters.

If you listen to the different speakers with nonoptimal filters, then that will dominate how they sound.

[A9X]

On 10/07/2019 at 1:12 PM, aertex said:

I also dont plan on using such a crossover as an end point, rather a starting point tool for maybe several multiway horn based set ups with various driver and horn combinations I am gravitating towards having collected the numerous bit along the way

Agree with Dave, you'll need multiple settings. And also delay so the only real option is DSP. Been there done that with large multi way FLHs.

[La scala]

Using D23 for sometime on 3 way and 4 way active Horns..

 

Like the ease of use compared to the DEQX.

Super versatile, enables gain correction to balace driver or tube amps or lower dB drivers.

Time delay can be achieved via the 3  crossover slopes, phase alters.

All analogue signal purity.

 

The thing rocks like many of yesterday’s precision offerings..

 

Bryson or Accuphase and others use cards to set parameters - too hard unless exact freq cuts / filters are know..

 

Yes complex to rig up in terms of multiple amps, interconnects, speaker cables, multi amplifier gain differences etc.

 

Once an all active setup with the likes of a D23 is implemented, you’ll be in awe, seriously.

Just beware as you may be drawn to casual listening at double the normal volume.

 

Would like another D23 .

Enjoy V 

 

 

 

 

 

[highcut28]

i upgraded the Yam NS1000 by semictively driving them - just completed and i must say I m really pleased .  I emulated  friend of mine Ken Wilkes in UK did.
Rod Elliots P09 device as a 2 way stereo eXO.   
Highpass to poweramp  to a simple 2 way passive XO  to tweets n mids. 
Low pass to poweramp direct to woofers .

You can by adding more Rod Elliot P09 boards build 3 way (or more) eXO  if u want to be fully active .

[frednork]

5 hours ago, La scala said:

Using D23 for sometime on 3 way and 4 way active Horns..

 

Like the ease of use compared to the DEQX.

Super versatile, enables gain correction to balace driver or tube amps or lower dB drivers.

Time delay can be achieved via the 3  crossover slopes, phase alters.

All analogue signal purity.

 

The thing rocks like many of yesterday’s precision offerings..

 

Bryson or Accuphase and others use cards to set parameters - too hard unless exact freq cuts / filters are know..

 

Yes complex to rig up in terms of multiple amps, interconnects, speaker cables, multi amplifier gain differences etc.

 

Once an all active setup with the likes of a D23 is implemented, you’ll be in awe, seriously.

Just beware as you may be drawn to casual listening at double the normal volume.

 

Would like another D23 .

Enjoy V 

 

 

 

 

 

Think I just realised how "girly man" my setup is.

[A9X]

5 hours ago, La scala said:

Time delay can be achieved via the 3  crossover slopes, phase alters.

Hardly. Not for long path length differences between FLH sections. It certainly would not supply anywhere near enough delay to correct TOF differences between the sections of my KHorns and LS for example, let alone my big 5 way FLH system these developed into.

 

5 hours ago, La scala said:

All analogue signal purity.

Yeah, all that purity from dozens of old electros in the signal path. This 'purity' comment has far, far more to do with a philosophical POV than an engineering one.

[La scala]

On 10/07/2019 at 8:50 AM, aertex said:

A general question I guess for those who have used analogue active crossovers in speaker projects along the way....

I’d love to see your JBL 5500 clones. The real deal ones are impressive.

 

Also the active D23 will assist you in designing a passive x over by determining ideal values  to suit your Horns etc.

 

ta V 

Edited July 12, 2019 by La scala
Which to add photo

[La scala]

10 minutes ago, A9X said:

Hardly. Not for long path length differences between FLH sections. It certainly would not supply anywhere near enough delay to correct TOF differences between the sections of my KHorns and LS for example, let alone my big 5 way FLH system these developed into.

 

Yeah, all that purity from dozens of old electros in the signal path. This 'purity' comment has far, far more to do with a philosophical POV than an engineering one.

Yes I get you, less is more. An animal of resistors and caps in the chain.

Just sounds better than the DEXQ - DSP - Digital gear that I’ve encountered.

Sounds like your are also into the Klipsch Horns. 

Edited July 12, 2019 by La scala

[A9X]

9 minutes ago, La scala said:

Just sounds better than the DEXQ - DSP - Digital gear that I’ve encountered.

Then I'd posit you don't know how to correctly set it up. I've never heard an analog even go close to what a good DSP can do. Unless of course, you're simply using the DSP to do textbook electronic generic filters.

 

10 minutes ago, La scala said:

Sounds like your are also into the Klipsch Horns.

I've posted many times before that after getting my KHorns, I enjoyed them for a while in the flush of new love. Then I began to notice the faults, and by the time I'd engineered them out, they were sitting in the garage and I had designed a 5 way FLH system that absolutely slaughtered them.

[La scala]

9 minutes ago, A9X said:

Then I'd posit you don't know how to correctly set it up. I've never heard an analog even go close to what a good DSP can do. Unless of course, you're simply using the DSP to do textbook electronic generic filters.

 

I've posted many times before that after getting my KHorns, I enjoyed them for a while in the flush of new love. Then I began to notice the faults, and by the time I'd engineered them out, they were sitting in the garage and I had designed a 5 way FLH system that absolutely slaughtered them.

Thanks for your reply,

What is a FLH ?

 

Personaly have also discovered the same with the La Scalas - was a great fun journey into horns.

Also wanted more moyo to fill the 400sqm workshop.  Just started on a 5 way rig myself.

 

Yes I am not using the DEQX for DSP - speaker correction nor room correction atm, just various x over settings and delays.

ta V

[A9X]

49 minutes ago, La scala said:

What is a FLH ?

Front Loaded Horn, as opposed to a BLH, a la 'scoop'.

System ended up being 2 corner loaded LABHorns/side, a 2220 2m long J shaped hypex, a 150Hz EVM12L driven trax, them Arai A290 with BMS4590.

 

I owned KHorns, factory LS, home made LS (incl djk ported LS) and Heresys.

[aertex]

I'm "listening" in the background guys-interested in the experiences of others

 

A9X your an east coast "westie" right? Not over here in WA?

[La scala]

2 minutes ago, aertex said:

I'm "listening" in the background guys-interested in the experiences of others

 

A9X your an east coast "westie" right? Not over here in WA?

Are your clones like these !

 

[aertex]

yes they are. Cabinets copied from an original

 

Good to hear you had success with the D-23 in your application. We must catch up soem time down the track. I am in Bunbury

[La scala]

2 hours ago, A9X said:

Front Loaded Horn, as opposed to a BLH, a la 'scoop'.

System ended up being 2 corner loaded LABHorns/side, a 2220 2m long J shaped hypex, a 150Hz EVM12L driven trax, them Arai A290 with BMS4590.

 

I owned KHorns, factory LS, home made LS (incl djk ported LS) and Heresys.

Magic, we have much the same taste and rigs.

Our own personal concert capable glorious non fatiguing chest pounders.

 

On a much smaller scale, Klipsch Ks and Scalas be nice with a additional 

mid bass horn cone driver

and larger bass horn. 

[La scala]

12 minutes ago, aertex said:

yes they are. Cabinets copied from an original

 

Good to hear you had success with the D-23 in your application. We must catch up soem time down the track. I am in Bunbury

By all means, mees in Perth, if ever down here, do catch up.

The JBL you are working on look very very Trick. 

Lenard Audio - education,  is a fab read,  his x over etc recommendations are pretty spot on, as well as everything else. Great learning material. 

ta V