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Tobes

Vicoustic DC-2 diffusers

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I've now added DC2 diffusers to my ceiling - 2 x groups of 4 panels - at the first reflection points between the speakers and listening position.

Further profound improvement in clarity and imaging:

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Edited by Tobes

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This thing looks like art works on the wall. Where do you start when placing them? Do you start with a spot then gradually add more?

On 07/07/2019 at 12:57 PM, Tobes said:

I added some of the Vicoustic diffusers to my room and thought it might be worth mentioning the attachment method used.

Vicoustic talk about gluing to the walls - but this arrangement is far too permanent for my liking.

With acoustic treatment you need to have the flexibility to change things if needed, you may want to accomodate different speaker positioning, different speakers or even move to a different room.

I used the 3M command strips - two piece sticky backed strips held together with velcro.

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The adhesive strips have excellent adhesion to the DC2 foam panels. The DC2 panels weigh just under 1.4kg and just two strips will hold 2.7kg - or you could use more if you wished.

The velcro then allows easy removal if required and the strip adhered to the wall can be removed without leaving any mark at all. 

The strip on the actual diffuser is undamaged and the panel can be re-attached in a different position by simply adding a new strip for the wall side.

Of course you can remove and re-attach to the same position as required via the velcro. Very convenient.

I experimented without using any actual wall attachment first by propping up/vertical stacking the diffusers on objects to find the arrangement that sounded best.

The setup below provides a significant improvement in my acoustics.

Most noticeable is the enhanced recreation of space and recorded ambiance.

While I mostly listen to music I put on a movie last night and noted a distinct improvement in sound-field precision and image steering.

I have just a 4 speaker setup but results are very impressive.

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Really kicking myself that I haven't tried ceiling treatment earlier - really takes the SQ to another level.

If you love natural ambiance and realistic imaging/transient behaviour, this is a no-brainer. 

Far more value in acoustic treatment than hardware upgrades IMO (but no doubt it helps to have nice hardware to start with) - getting this stuff past the significant other might be a sticking point. 😎

 

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Edited by Tobes

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58 minutes ago, 🎶nh🎶 said:

This thing looks like art works on the wall. Where do you start when placing them? Do you start with a spot then gradually add more?

 

Treating the wall behind the speakers (front wall) and first reflection points on side walls (and ceiling) is usually a good place to start. I bought various panels, as well as DIY stuff I had, and experimented with placement/listening before mounting anything. A combination of absorption and diffusion worked well for me.

There are probably other arrangements that might work as well, or even better.

Measuring with a microphone and software could assist, but not necessary. In the end the room balance is personal preference so experimenting may be best, but can be time consuming. 

 

When placing these particular DC2 panels it pays to get the first one nice and square. Additional panels key off the first and are easy, no additional measuring required.  

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3 hours ago, Tobes said:

A combination of absorption and diffusion worked well for me.

Thanks Tobes ... I'll do a bit more research on sound absorption vs diffusion. Obviously sound behaves differently than light. In photography we hear alot of diffusion but never absorption.

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Hey Tobes, very interested in your findings about placing the DC2's on the ceiling...obviously its not possible to experiment or try this out before committing to installing them. But given your experience of before and after results, I am seriously thinking about going down the same path now! Only thing is I have downlights and an airconditioner duct which have to be avoided, so I might end up with a slight scatter of a new box of DC2's...any opinion on where they should be placed, or might it be an effective improvement regardless of where they end up?

 

 

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Edited by SETfan

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 Mark 1st reflection point on ceiling, then place the diffuser in a line fore & aft of the 1st reflection location. 
ShouldNot need too many - 3 for each spkr. 

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On 30/09/2019 at 8:32 PM, frankn said:

 Mark 1st reflection point on ceiling, then place the diffuser in a line fore & aft of the 1st reflection location. 
ShouldNot need too many - 3 for each spkr. 

Yes, I centred my ceiling treatment around the first reflection point. 

Since my room is 6m long and speakers and listening position are close to 2m from the front wall and rear wall respectively (ie rule of thirds) the DC2's were placed around the centre point of the room.

 

In actual fact I wasn't sure how I'd like the ceiling treatment, so I went with a temporary application using the 3M strips mentioned above. Note these are designed for vertical not horizontal fixing and I'm not recommending for permanent ceiling use. But I wanted to be able to move things if it didn't work out. I'm contemplating how to fix them more permanently.

 

On 30/09/2019 at 7:36 PM, SETfan said:

 But given your experience of before and after results, I am seriously thinking about going down the same path now!

I can't recommend this ceiling treatment enough, particularly since you've already treated other surfaces!

For me it was like a major system upgrade - except that I can't think of any upgrade that gave me a step forward like this! 

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Hi @SETfan

are your Apogee speakers a line source like the Full Range model?  If so, vertical dispersion is much less than conventional speakers therefore you might not notice as big a change with ceiling treatment. 
See if you can make a temporary setup to assess the merit of ceiling treatment. 
For permanent placement I built a frame, attached a sheet of fibre-board to frame and glued the DC2s to that. I then placed small hooks With spreader bars in my ceiling (as my house is metal framed so I don’t have wooden joists) and hooks in frame - connected the whole unit via chains. 
Everything is white (incl. chain) so not super intrusive. I can vary the gap between the ceiling and the DC2 “array” and additionally I was able to fill the gap with sound absorbing batt. 
You could simply make a lightweight frame and attach directly to the ceiling and use Velcro or glue to attach the panels - see picture from Vicoustic. 
Or glue direct to ceiling. 
The other thing to consider is an absorbing cloud rather than dispersion - it depends what your goal is. 

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5 hours ago, frankn said:

are your Apogee speakers a line source like the Full Range model? If so, vertical dispersion is much less than conventional speakers therefore you might not notice as big a change with ceiling treatment. 

This is a valid point.

I definitely recommend experimenting no matter where you apply room treatment - all speakers/rooms are going to be different. 

 

5 hours ago, frankn said:

For permanent placement I built a frame, attached a sheet of fibre-board to frame and glued the DC2s to that. I then placed small hooks With spreader bars in my ceiling (as my house is metal framed so I don’t have wooden joists) and hooks in frame - connected the whole unit via chains. 

At present none of my acoustic panels are permanently in place, but fixed using either the 3M strips or in the case of the heavier Wavepanels glued to 3mm MDF and hung with wall hooks.

For security I need to look at a more reliable method for the ceiling, I'll probably go with something like your solution - a frame with hooks of some sort. 

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Thanks guys, yes my Apogees are line source so I need to think this through a bit further...Frank - any suggestions on how it might be possible to experiment with an absorbing cloud idea? The ceiling is so difficult (in my mind at least) to do any experimentation or am I overlooking the obvious?

I am not specifically seeking a certain outcome, just overall better sound as described by Tobes experience..

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50 minutes ago, SETfan said:

Thanks guys, yes my Apogees are line source so I need to think this through a bit further...Frank - any suggestions on how it might be possible to experiment with an absorbing cloud idea? The ceiling is so difficult (in my mind at least) to do any experimentation or am I overlooking the obvious?

I am not specifically seeking a certain outcome, just overall better sound as described by Tobes experience..

Depends on how much effort you want to go to. 
have you got a mattress handy?

are you willing to purchase some ceiling treatments that might not do anything?

How many spare DC2s do you have?

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Building a lightweight frame isn’t difficult. Attaching panels to frame using 3M loop & hook/Velcro strips is easy. 
Putting the whole unit temporarily in place against the ceiling using extendable tent poles would work. 
I can help you. 

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Posted (edited)
On 22/07/2019 at 4:13 PM, Tobes said:

Bottom line: I like it!

The best thing you can do, is not sit with a wall directly behind you.   Within reason I would compromise just about anything else to achieve that.    For example, I would consider moving the speakers back towards the window, do you could sit further away from the wall ("rule of thirds" be damned).

 

Obviously lots and lots of rooms are setup that way too (it's a common problem), with the seating against walls.

 

 

Edited by davewantsmoore

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8 hours ago, frankn said:

Building a lightweight frame isn’t difficult. Attaching panels to frame using 3M loop & hook/Velcro strips is easy. 
Putting the whole unit temporarily in place against the ceiling using extendable tent poles would work. 
I can help you. 

Some good ideas to consider there...will discuss further when we catch up :thumb:

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