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MaxPlumage

Subwoofer positioning advice

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2 minutes ago, MaxPlumage said:

Unfortunately have to use the area near the front floor standers for the subs as that's the only viable option for me due to space constraints...

 

And I use subs for both music and movies...

 

just a point of note wiht subs I have always found they do need some wall reinforcement (this is even with some really very decent capable units. subs really dont work that well stuck out in middle of space ... this is unlike speakers where you tend to move them out to best take advantage of their imaging capability.

 

anyways of moving speakers in line and further forward ? subs further back ? 

 

are any pictures possible of the setup ? might give us some more clues what you are talking about :)

 

Just now, MaxPlumage said:

For a top of the line one (which is apparently the one with the better algorithms) which costs approx. $1.3K I could buy another PB 2000 and even out the bass some more emoji1.png

adding more subs can also further compound problems... double your peaks and troughs...and introduce even more .... its not a guaranteed thing more subs is better :) its just what people think, however without realising locating them is difficult enough with even one let alone multiples.. and then there is all of them integrated and working to complement  :) .

 

3 minutes ago, MaxPlumage said:

Also it's introducing another dedicated component in the chain from what I understand about setting it up...

its always location location location. subs and listening position along with speakers... anything after that is just making best of a usually compromised situation :D ie what bandaids can apply... 😛 

 

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Do you have a compatible Denon/Marantz AV receiver?
 
Indeed I have a Denon. However the app is very flaky and a pain to use. A quick glance at the google playstore reviews will tell you it's not worth the money.

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Just now, MaxPlumage said:
16 minutes ago, stiben said:
 
Do you have a compatible Denon/Marantz AV receiver?
 

Indeed I have a Denon. However the app is very flaky and a pain to use. A quick glance at the google playstore reviews will tell you it's not worth the money.

I cant speak of the app. but audyssey xt32 in itself is VERY capable especially for multi sub (2 usually at best) in measurement setup and EQ.

 

however it is only able to make best of a bad situation... so always better off to fix anything you can first and not expect it to perform any miracles :D

 

ti will sort out things like alignment phase and what not. just let it do its thing. but what it cant fix up is poor location of speakers, sub and listening position, major room issues and such. 

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I cant speak of the app. but audyssey xt32 in itself is VERY capable especially for multi sub (2 usually at best) in measurement setup and EQ.
 
however it is only able to make best of a bad situation... so always better off to fix anything you can first and not expect it to perform any miracles [emoji3]
 
ti will sort out things like alignment phase and what not. just let it do its thing. but what it cant fix up is poor location of speakers, sub and listening position, major room issues and such. 
Indeed, Audyssey gets it close. It got my crossover and subwoofer/atmos distances wrong and once I made a manual correction things improved dramatically.

The app itself is only if you want to mess around with a custom calibration curve that deviates from the default audyssey curve ...

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5 minutes ago, MaxPlumage said:

Indeed, Audyssey gets it close. It got my crossover and subwoofer/atmos distances wrong and once I made a manual correction things improved dramatically.

it does NOT get the distances wrong. keep in mind the distances include delays required due to processing time. so dont adjust and screw it up ! 

 

with audyssey you want to get things like setup locations perfect run it and I woudl suggest read below....and follow to the absolute letter....its usually when people decide to go off the beaten track that things go astray. the below was developed off the official audyssey thread on ads that Chris K founder of auddysey himself painlessly contributed too...

 

https://www.willowville.net/ht/Audyssey Setup Guide.pdf

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it does NOT get the distances wrong. keep in mind the distances include delays required due to processing time. so dont adjust and screw it up ! 
 
with audyssey you want to get things like setup locations perfect run it and I woudl suggest read below....and follow to the absolute letter....its usually when people decide to go off the beaten track that things go astray. the below was developed off the official audyssey thread on ads that Chris K founder of auddysey himself painlessly contributed too...
 
https://www.willowville.net/ht/Audyssey Setup Guide.pdf
Thanks for the alert :) Big fan of Chris K and I've browsed the Audyssey threads many times to learn...

Yes fully understand that it's accurate and compensates for subwoofer delays, I incorrectly stated it got it wrong. What I should have made clear is I followed the 'distance hack' where you adjust the distances till you hear bass differences...to my ears the sub sounded more dynamic and punchier (on a bass heavy repetitive track) when I changed the distance slightly.

I'll restore the Audyssey settings, it will likely tighten it up.

Thanks!

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sorry miss read the OP if dual subs save your back, time alignment (phase correction) and eq is what you will need as numerous others have suggested. 

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@MaxPlumage I am getting confused on what you are trying to do.  If you are using Audyssey to manage the dual subs, then I will leave it you.

 

However, in your original post, you did not mention Audyssey and you were trying to manually integrate the dual subs into a seperate(?) music system by moving the subs relative to the mains. I got the impression that you wanted to learn REW etc. hence my posts about the difficulty of doing this manually. Instead I suggested the easiest way was getting an external box with room correction. But you now say the external box is not for you.  Does this mean you no longer want to integrate the dual subs? Or you prefer to do manually?

 

As you can see from my questions, I am no longer sure what you have and what you are trying to do. Please guide me...

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[mention=258505]MaxPlumage[/mention] I am getting confused on what you are trying to do.  If you are using Audyssey to manage the dual subs, then I will leave it you.
 
However, in your original post, you did not mention Audyssey and you were trying to manually integrate the dual subs into a seperate(?) music system by moving the subs relative to the mains. I got the impression that you wanted to learn REW etc. hence my posts about the difficulty of doing this manually. Instead I suggested the easiest way was getting an external box with room correction. But you now say the external box is not for you.  Does this mean you no longer want to integrate the dual subs? Or you prefer to do manually?
 
As you can see from my questions, I am no longer sure what you have and what you are trying to do. Please guide me...
Snoopy, my original question was about specific positioning advice.

My dual subs are along the same wall as my fronts. I want to know if it's generally a good idea to have the subwoofers *in-line* with the floor standers so the drivers are on the same plane, and also should I have the subs as close to the mains as possible in the (possibly mistaken belief that they will act as 'one').

I can certainly EQ with Audyssey, or REW and manual adjustments. But...I want a starting (better optimised point) for positioning my subs within my existing positioning constraints and I thought having them in line and close to the floor standers would be ideal.

All the advice provided still applies though, so thank you to all.

Hope that makes it clear?

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11 hours ago, betty boop said:

it does NOT get the distances wrong. keep in mind the distances include delays required due to processing time. so dont adjust and screw it up ! 

 

with audyssey you want to get things like setup locations perfect run it and I woudl suggest read below....and follow to the absolute letter....its usually when people decide to go off the beaten track that things go astray. the below was developed off the official audyssey thread on ads that Chris K founder of auddysey himself painlessly contributed too...

 

https://www.willowville.net/ht/Audyssey Setup Guide.pdf

Audyssey gets the distance and level for subwoofers wrong without fail.  It always sets the level too low and the distance too close.  Minor tweaks to these two parameters will yield dramatic improvements.  

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Not in my experience over some 3 generations product 2 generations of audyssey ...and not only calibrating my own system but helping many others over years. Not only using audyssey pro but the basic. if distances don’t match reality there is good reason maybe using a screwed mic ! Audyssey pro uses a calibrated mic and always bang on. Subwoofer excepted but if reeesrch there is good reason ...

 

re sub levels, audyssey actually state it calibrates to cinema reference curve. And it’s upto you to choose reference or preference... ie bump it up if want. Salt to taste. but it won’t be reference ... this is usually case where folks not used to reference .. calibrate and then go wah ... in my experience this no difference audio or video wise. Thing is listen or view reference for a while and go back and soon see preference for what it is ...  over cooked. 

 

Many major departures and should be asking why ... usually folk who feel know better and don’t follow guide I linked to ... to the letter...audyssey can’t perform major miracles. Fix up screwed room or major issues in placement or locations - speakers or listening 

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39 minutes ago, betty boop said:

Thing is listen or view reference for a while and go back and soon see preference for what it is ...  over cooked. 

Not doubting your wisdom, but who listens at reference level?

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1 hour ago, STROP said:

Not doubting your wisdom, but who listens at reference level?

You are confusing reference level and cinema reference curve audyssey calibrates to achieve :)

 

audyssey dynamic eq exists to maintain reference curve below reference levels :)

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4 minutes ago, betty boop said:

You are confusing reference level and cinema reference curve

That makes sense now...

As far as audyssey setting up sub levels for my SB-2000, I always have to increase avr trim and gain to dial this sub in 'a tad'...then the magic happens😀

 

Side-note... this may just be the way SVS subs behave in the wild.

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5 hours ago, MaxPlumage said:

Snoopy, my original question was about specific positioning advice.

My dual subs are along the same wall as my fronts. I want to know if it's generally a good idea to have the subwoofers *in-line* with the floor standers so the drivers are on the same plane, and also should I have the subs as close to the mains as possible in the (possibly mistaken belief that they will act as 'one').

I can certainly EQ with Audyssey, or REW and manual adjustments. But...I want a starting (better optimised point) for positioning my subs within my existing positioning constraints and I thought having them in line and close to the floor standers would be ideal.

All the advice provided still applies though, so thank you to all.

Hope that makes it clear?

Thank you.  Let me paraphrase you. 

Quote

You would like to find the ideal position in a room for dual subs so that they optimally integrate with the stereo system.

There are a number challenges in that statement.  Finding the ideal position for one sub can be done by using the sub crawl method and a couple of posts here have already suggested that.  It is not possible to find the ideal positions for 2 subs using the same technique.  It will be tempting to use the 2 best positions for dual subs.  But the complex interactions between the room, the dual subs and the mains will create problems and the 2 best positions are unlikely to work. The Cat @betty boop posted something earlier about the difficulty of adding a second sub.  Through persistence and lots of  trial and error, it may be possible to find 2 positions which improves the bass but unlikely to be optimal.  But don't move anything after that, otherwise another round of trial and error.

 

The room has the biggest influence, yet many people forget to address that.  Understanding the room modes and modal ringing will help identify potential bass frequencies that can cause problems.  Ideally, treat the room with bass traps first, which can reduce the effort to integrate the dual subs.  Measure before and after treatment. Room treatment has yet to be discussed in this thread.

 

Measuring the room and learning how to interpret the results is essential.  You can get away without measuring using the sub crawl method for 1 sub, but our ears are not good enough when there are two or more subs.  There are various tools, methodologies and even complex mathematics that can help, but they all require an effort to learn.  The end results will provide information for a DSP to do the work of integrating the subs.

 

While it is easy to measure, interpreting the results is a challenge. Even harder is coming up with solutions.  It is much easier to use a package in a box to do the work.  Dspeaker is probably the easiest and I do not recall anyone asking a how-to-use question on AntiMode or their other products.  Dirac Live is popular and relatively easy.  What about Audyssey?  There were posts in other threads which suggests that Audyssey is not good for music. This room correction software review which cover many packages said the same.  The Cat, who is the go-to person for Audyssey, does not use it for music.  

 

Alternately, you can pay someone like Paul @Red Spade Audio  to do all or some of the above.   Paul can help with measurement and interpreting the results, recommend bass traps and help position the dual subs.  I know that Paul is in favour of using a DSP as well, but I am sure he can give you examples where people do not use DSP, but still have good results.

 

Sorry for being so long winded.   I hope I have given you enough information to make a decision on your next steps....

 

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16 minutes ago, STROP said:

That makes sense now...

As far as audyssey setting up sub levels for my SB-2000, I always have to increase avr trim and gain to dial this sub in 'a tad'...then the magic happens😀

 

Side-note... this may just be the way SVS subs behave in the wild.

Indeed....Chris K has reminded many times even written article that audyssey is meant to be used with dynamic eq. It does what fletcher Munson curves do ie compensate for our ears sensitivity to different freq at different spl(vol levels) it’s very much needed for levels below reference. If you choose to not use dynamic eq you will need to boost levels below reference but you won’t be able to do this dynamically as dynamic eq does across freq to suit our sensitivity :)

 

all that said if using dynamic eq there is nothing at all wrong with salting to taste as mentioned earlier :)

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9 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

What about Audyssey?  There were posts in other threads which suggests that Audyssey is not good for music. This room correction software review which cover many packages said the same.  The Cat, who is the go-to person for Audyssey, does not use it for music.  

Certainly choices for music, am pretty sure a google will bring up chrisK’s / audyssey’s article in suggestions for that :)

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Snoopy, my original question was about specific positioning advice.

My dual subs are along the same wall as my fronts. I want to know if it's generally a good idea to have the subwoofers *in-line* with the floor standers so the drivers are on the same plane, and also should I have the subs as close to the mains as possible in the (possibly mistaken belief that they will act as 'one').

I can certainly EQ with Audyssey, or REW and manual adjustments. But...I want a starting (better optimised point) for positioning my subs within my existing positioning constraints and I thought having them in line and close to the floor standers would be ideal.

All the advice provided still applies though, so thank you to all.

Hope that makes it clear?
Short answer, if you want to get the best LF response by using subwoofers, than placement is the most important aspect. This is usually not near the front speakers, because if it was, you wouldn't really need subwoofers, except for LFE.

Internal delay for subwoofers can be as much as 20ms or more, so DSP is required in a lot of situations and problems will usually show up around the cross over frequency.

2 subwoofers can better equalise LF response over a wider listen area than a single sub, and only multiple subs can really deal with nulls in the frequency response.

Room dimensions, speaker position, and listen position are the 3 factors that influence LF response the most.

You should find out the best position by using measurements, and then tune to preference by ear.
Good LF response may sound weak initially, but will have great clarity, and can pack a punch you can feel, without shakes, rattles, and other distortions, when done right.



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Does Audyssey adds delay to the front left and front right speakers in order for them to "catch up" with the subwoofer if the sub is placed 1 meter behind the front speakers?

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3 hours ago, jeromelang said:

Does Audyssey adds delay to the front left and front right speakers in order for them to "catch up" with the subwoofer if the sub is placed 1 meter behind the front speakers?

As long as it measures it such, it will apply all necessary delays

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Sorry for being so long winded.   I hope I have given you enough information to make a decision on your next steps....


To the contrary, thank you for taking the time to write such an articulate response.

When my receiver is due for an upgrade I might look at a receiver that does Dirac (e.g. NAD T758 v3).

Another thought I had was use Audyssey for movies but when I upgrade gear for music specifically I could get a preamp with HT bypass and just run my fronts in stereo, full range and calibrate with mini dsp or tweak via REW.

For now and the foreseeable future I will have to make do with my existing gear :) the thing with speaker is that it sits between the receiver and sub and it's another cog in the wheel...might be a last resort, but an option just yet.

It probably doesn't help too much that I also have rear bass ports on my FS positioned close to the wall...

More investigation to do...

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1 hour ago, betty boop said:

As pong as it measures it such, ...

Something smells here..  😂 

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I often read online that putting your subs at the front of the room will not get "good" results - luckily I actually haven't found this to be case IRL (or from looking at plenty of REW sweeps from AVS members)- especially if you're EQing for a single row of seats/couch. 

My understanding on the Harman white paper's recommendations of front and rear, opposing sidewalls or 4 corner placement is that it's more to do with minimising seat-to-seat variations over multiple rows - so global EQ can be applied.   Front and rear subs etc doesn't guarantee a flat/smooth pre-EQ frequency response at the MLP - just that most seats will have a similar response so that applying EQ to fix one seat, doesn't mess up another (that's how I understand it anyway)

 

My last 2 rooms actually have had pretty good bass response with both subs up front (verified with a umik-1 + REW) , in my last room the subs were in the front corners, and in this room they are underneath my Left and Right speakers.

In my current room I've had up to 4 subs - and tested quite a few different configurations - 2 up front,  1 up front + 1 at the rear,  4 up front,  2 up front+2 at the rear, 2 up front + 2 on side walls and 2 up front + 2 nearfield.

 

In both rooms, having the subs up front measured as good (or better than) any of the other configs I tried, and definitely makes the room much more liveable!

2 at the front with 2 on the sidewalls probably had the most potential for a very smooth response if I had of spent more time (time) aligning them and had a little more flexibility in shifting them around. A miniDSP HD would have come in handy here.

2 up front + 2 nearfield was the most fun, but wouldn't pass WAF

 

I'll go against the grain and say that this really can't be done by ear for best results, especially time aligning your speakers + subs in the crossover region, something even Audyssey XT32 is well known for messing up

 

My frequency responses  certainly weren't perfect but are decent and the bass sounds good enough for me

(these are 2 I have saved on this PC from my last 2 setups)

 

(Quad PB-2000's)

4xpb.thumb.jpg.a1329d42951f1a4d4dbe5fdec85b04bc.jpg

 

(Dual SubMersives)

1600127285_submsept2018-Copy.jpg.2fbc85aae58efc849179d47c0b9dba2d.jpg

 

 

 

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What could be the detrimental sonic effects on speakers if (digital) delay were to be applied to them (when unnecessarily)?

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