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New amplifier blowing fuses


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1 minute ago, n0bleINtP said:

Yes Power (watts) = Volts x Amps

So 6.3 Amp from 110V is the unit pulling 700W from the socket.
For 220V supply the fuse would be smaller.

700W max. power consumption for the unit sounds about right?  

our voltage is supposed to be 230V :)

 

thats said

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS/NZS_3112

 

"In Australia, the actual voltages delivered to customers is set at the state level. Most Australian states decided to transition to the 230 V standard, with some states choosing to remain at 240 V. As of 2019, all states have transitioned to 230 V, with the exception of Western Australia and Queensland.[6] Queensland began the transition to 230 V in 2017 and hopes to be completed to the “preferred range” by July 2020.[27] The reason given for Queensland's decision to move was the increased use of grid-tied rooftop solar installations raising the grid voltage. By lowering the voltage to 230 V, additional headroom of 960 megawatts was created to accommodate future residential power generation from rooftop solar.[27]

The voltage in New Zealand is also 230 V. In Fiji, Tonga and Papua New Guinea it is 240 V, and 220 V in the Solomon Islands. In China and Argentina the voltage is 220 V."

 

WA might be still sitting on 240V.... allowable excursions ? so upto 253V is allowable...not sure if WA is going well above that because still sitting on 240V? 

 

"The nominal voltage in most areas of Australia had been set at 240 V in 1926. In 2000, Standards Australia issued a system Standard AS60038, with 230 V as the nominal voltage with a +10% to –6% variation at the point of supply, ie., 253 V to 216.2 V. A new power quality standard, AS61000.3.100, was released in 2011[25] that details additional requirements. The new standard stipulates a nominal 230 V, and the allowable voltage to the customer’s point of supply is, as mentioned, +10% to –6%. However, the preferred operating range is +6% to –2%. (244 V to 225 V).[26]"

 

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Just now, betty boop said:

our voltage is supposed to be 230V :)

Absolutely agree with all of that   115/230  110/220  120/240   all over the place

Was really just back of the envelope figuring on what the fuse should be.

Everything that uses mains power should have its power draw somewhere on its "nameplate", along with voltage and frequency.
On one picture above for the rear of the north american unit I see:  120 VAC  60 Hz  610 VA (ie watts) which matches the 6 Amp fuse for 120V operation (more or less).

ie the fuse protects the unit when it is pulling more than 600-700W or so from the wall on a continuous basis (due to a fault or overload)

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30 minutes ago, betty boop said:

this is just crazy !!!!

 

thats said I've never had a fuse issue with anything I've owned and own a few big amps. in all cases fuses are internal and I suspect not expected to be user replaceble. the bryston I received needed its hood popping to replace the fuse...

It is a bit crazy.

 

My Audio Research valve equipment and my McIntosh MC275 also have user replaceable fuses. 

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7 minutes ago, n0bleINtP said:

Absolutely agree with all of that   115/230  110/220  120/240   all over the place

Was really just back of the envelope figuring on what the fuse should be.

Everything that uses mains power should have its power draw somewhere on its "nameplate", along with voltage and frequency.
On one picture above for the rear of the north american unit I see:  120 VAC  60 Hz  610 VA (ie watts) which matches the 6 Amp fuse for 120V operation (more or less).

ie the fuse protects the unit when it is pulling more than 600-700W or so from the wall on a continuous basis (due to a fault or overload)

Well I'll leave it to them to sort out now! I'm not sure why it is blowing, however I do know that if you turn my big Audio Research ref 250 Monoblocks off and on again within about 10 minutes, they will blow a fuse. I also understand that toroidal transformers experience a power surge on power up.

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Both Bryston and Addicted to Audio told me to take it in for service. 
 
I don't think anything is wrong with it, rather, I think the fuse needs to be greater than 3.15amps (is it as simple as halving the amps when you double the voltage? Canada and USA specify a 6.3amp/115 v fuse).
 
 Brand new, going to be there for a week, nothing likely to be wrong, but will the problem be solved?

If you are dealing with Jesse from addicted (forget dealing with the other team as in my experience they are clueless) mention my experience with pre amp blowing fuses (only 18-months ago and resulted in me saying either fix it or refund - so likely to remember).
Slightly higher rated fuse fixed it.
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23 minutes ago, The Drake said:


If you are dealing with Jesse from addicted (forget dealing with the other team as in my experience they are clueless) mention my experience with pre amp blowing fuses (only 18-months ago and resulted in me saying either fix it or refund - so likely to remember).
Slightly higher rated fuse fixed it.

Thanks, mate. I'm pretty sure that that is the problem. I'm pretty frustrated with it. Should not have these problems with a new amp.

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Just now, Orpheus said:

Thanks, mate. I'm pretty sure that that is the problem. I'm pretty frustrated with it. Should not have these problems with a new amp.

Damn straight.

In a product of this class, price ( and supposed ) reputation, having any issues in the first week of ownership is completely  unacceptable and it is definitely not an isolated case.

Buyers of these amplifiers deserve far better.

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Three things.

1) I cant believe you are mucking around like this. Send it back and get it replaced.

2) Run a seperate higher current circuit at least. Have you done anything with your Mains at all? **** Power supply?

3) You say your AR Mono's blow fuses if you turn them back on after less then 10 minutes? Does your manual say anything about this?

Pardon for the question marks, but I'm kinda dumbfounded.

 

Edited by Wimbo
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29 minutes ago, furtherpale said:

As a former seller of bryston (admittedly 15 years ago... everything I sold will still be in warranty) I would have had a tested replacement into sent to you before you sent yours back.

Indeed.

 

 A good distributor should have approved the replacement  immediately via the dealer and sent an apology.

 

  15 years ago Bryston had a different distributor and these kind of problems never became an issue, so I will leave it to everybody to work out where the problem is.

Edited by rantan
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18 minutes ago, rantan said:

Indeed.

 

 A good distributor should have approved the replacement  immediately via the dealer and sent an apology.

 

  15 years ago Bryston had a different distributor and these kind of problems never became an issue, so I will leave it to everybody to work out where the problem is.

They did indeed have a different distributor #sloss

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Good grief, reading this thread would be enough to dissuade me from buying a Bryston amp. It just sounds like the manufacturer haven't done their job properly in making the product suitable for Australian conditions.

 

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Just to comment on the “bench-tested” replacement option - your problem will be if the store doesn’t experience the same voltage spikes the problem will only manifest itself when you use the replacement in your environment.
I went through this having ‘loaned’ my preamp back to Addicted who could not replicate the fault. Upon bringing the preamp home it blew a fuse within 24-hours.
Bryston make some lovely products (I run pre, power and dac Bryston), but dicking about with Busisoft ain’t gonna pay dividends. Tell them to fix or refund!

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3 minutes ago, The Drake said:

Just to comment on the “bench-tested” replacement option - your problem will be if the store doesn’t experience the same voltage spikes the problem will only manifest itself when you use the replacement in your environment.
I went through this having ‘loaned’ my preamp back to Addicted who could not replicate the fault. Upon bringing the preamp home it blew a fuse within 24-hours.
Bryston make some lovely products (I run pre, power and dac Bryston), but dicking about with Busisoft ain’t gonna pay dividends. Tell them to fix or refund!

So where does the problem lie in that scenario? ?

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1 hour ago, Wimbo said:

Three things.

1) I cant believe you are mucking around like this. Send it back and get it replaced.

2) Run a seperate higher current circuit at least. Have you done anything with your Mains at all? **** Power supply?

3) You say your AR Mono's blow fuses if you turn them back on after less then 10 minutes? Does your manual say anything about this?

Pardon for the question marks, but I'm kinda dumbfounded.

 

Wimbo, with the ARs, this happened once, in fact, I think it was my ref 110, which was in my work system at the time.

 

My friend, in Auckland, has had the problem with his AR Ref 250s, and is fanatical about avoiding this risk! He has a very good system, with Wilson MAXX speakers, and a DCS stack (latest model!; he decided it would be cheaper to renovate his house to create a better listening room than upgrade his equipment).

 

The AR Ref 250 mono amps are brilliant.

I have done nothing with my power supply. I have a lot of audio and electrical equipment, and do not experience a problem with the other equipment.

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23 minutes ago, Orpheus said:

Wimbo, with the ARs, this happened once, in fact, I think it was my ref 110, which was in my work system at the time.

 

My friend, in Auckland, has had the problem with his AR Ref 250s, and is fanatical about avoiding this risk! He has a very good system, with Wilson MAXX speakers, and a DCS stack (latest model!; he decided it would be cheaper to renovate his house to create a better listening room than upgrade his equipment).

 

The AR Ref 250 mono amps are brilliant.

I have done nothing with my power supply. I have a lot of audio and electrical equipment, and do not experience a problem with the other equipment.

I have had no over heating problems or intermittent fuse irritations since installing a Furman voltage regulator a couple of years ago. I was particularly concerned by the high voltage with my valve gear and the running of electrolytic caps at very close to peak loading given our rather variable mains voltage. We are supposed to be 230V. We aren't. Your issue may well have different cause however the mains voltage variability in my area (that I can monitor from the led readout on the Furman) has been a revelation to me.

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Fuses are not voltage sensitive they are current sensitive.  It doesn’t matter whether it’s 200 or 270V, a fuse will not blow, however if the current drawn was and note the word “exceeded” then they will blow and disconnect the  circuit from further harm, this is the primary job specification of a fuse and it’s intended use.

 

Amplifiers with a typical linear psu will draw instantaneous significant current, that’s because when the product is off, your electrolytic caps are fully discharged, and when you switch the product on they effectively represent a “short” momentarily to the mains, as the voltage rises on the storage caps they gradually increase in impedance (resistance ) to the mains,    This is why most or if not all designers will use a slow blow fuse, and if they were caring enough they will also deploy a “soft start circuit”. 

 

If you do not get a reply on what the “correct fuse rating “ is within 48hrs of sending a email to the manufacturer and distributor, send a follow up email demanding that info and give them a time frame noting this is email number 2 and if this isn’t  responded within 48hrs you will be returning the product for a full replacement or a request for a full refund.

You need to stand your ground because the amount of money you paid doesn’t justify crappy service.  Requesting for information for a fuse is a basic requirement and not a privilege.

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1 hour ago, Addicted to music said:

Fuses are not voltage sensitive they are current sensitive.  It doesn’t matter whether it’s 200 or 270V, a fuse will not blow, however if the current drawn was and note the word “exceeded” then they will blow and disconnect the  circuit from further harm, this is the primary job specification of a fuse and it’s intended use.

 

Amplifiers with a typical linear psu will draw instantaneous significant current, that’s because when the product is off, your electrolytic caps are fully discharged, and when you switch the product on they effectively represent a “short” momentarily to the mains, as the voltage rises on the storage caps they gradually increase in impedance (resistance ) to the mains,    This is why most or if not all designers will use a slow blow fuse, and if they were caring enough they will also deploy a “soft start circuit”. 

 

If you do not get a reply on what the “correct fuse rating “ is within 48hrs of sending a email to the manufacturer and distributor, send a follow up email demanding that info and give them a time frame noting this is email number 2 and if this isn’t  responded within 48hrs you will be returning the product for a full replacement or a request for a full refund.

You need to stand your ground because the amount of money you paid doesn’t justify crappy service.  Requesting for information for a fuse is a basic requirement and not a privilege.

Indeed. My understanding is that there is an inverse relationship between voltage and current. Is that correct?

 

There has been no problem obtaining information about the appropriate fuse. The problem is that a fuse as specified seems unable to cope with the current at start up.

 

BTW, the amp does not have a power switch on the back, so is always in standby mode when not on.

 

I have had all sorts of audio equipment at home, and not had this problem.

 

Thanks everybody for the input, it’s been very useful.

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35 minutes ago, Orpheus said:

 

There has been no problem obtaining information about the appropriate fuse. The problem is that a fuse as specified seems unable to cope with the current at start up.

Ensure that they reply back in writing so you have a record of it “in writing” and by who so when the time comes it can be used as evidence so it’s not he said she said etc etc.  it’s there in writing in print!   I brought this up in a previous post “to confirmed with documentation “.   Otherwise they will use every excuse under the sun to get out of a warranty situation.   Putting outside specified components void warranty! Full stop case close, and yes it’s that black and white! 

 

42 minutes ago, Orpheus said:

 

I have had all sorts of audio equipment at home, and not had this problem.

 

Correct, most designers would have deployed a fuse to be able to cope under everyday operation, they would have incorporated the current required on switch on so it doesn’t “blow”.    They would have also used a rating where under these conditions where it should be triggered; usually operator stupidity like shorting out speaker terminals etc and “if” abnormal current is drawn, this is the value “threshold “ where it should draw the line to reduce the risk of fire. 

So under everyday normal operation a fuse simply should not need to be replaced.

 

Now for example they give you the info where to use a slow blow 3.15A  if it blows this,  then definitely request a replacement unit.

 

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1 hour ago, Orpheus said:

an inverse relationship between voltage and current

It is true that a 120V 6.3A fuse is more or less identical to a 240V 6.3A fuse - since the voltage drop across a fuse depends only on the current flowing though it (a resistor). This voltage drop is what heats it, and if high enough, melts the fuse.

What I was indicating earlier is that a 6.3A fuse on a 120V supply will admit half as much power (Watts) before blowing as the same 6.3A fuse with a 240V supply.    ie  6.3A times 120V   vs 6.3A times 240V.

I would expect the mains fuse on a 240V appliance to be half the Ampere spec as the mains fuse on a 120v appliance. (ie same appliance)

The inrush current when a starting large inductive load like a transformer can be huge. Can be well over 100  Amperes. It is why the lights can dim around you when you start a big electric motor. A lot of bigger amplifiers will have a "soft start" circuit to limit this. 

This surge should be brief. Less than a full AC cycle (50Hz - 1/50 second).  The slow blow fuse is supposed to be able to deal with that.   You could try a slightly bigger fuse, but I wouldn't double it.

If there is a hard fault in the amplifier (eg shorted transformer) it will blow just about any fuse instantly - so safe there. If not - the amplifier power supply components will be dealing with twice as much current/power before the fuse goes - might cook something. 


 

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1 hour ago, Addicted to music said:

Ensure that they reply back in writing so you have a record of it “in writing” and by who so when the time comes it can be used as evidence so it’s not he said she said etc etc.  it’s there in writing in print!   I brought this up in a previous post “to confirmed with documentation “.   Otherwise they will use every excuse under the sun to get out of a warranty situation.   Putting outside specified components void warranty! Full stop case close, and yes it’s that black and white! 

A to A, I am not as cynical as you, and find in general, if you approach a situation in good faith, you will achieve a reasonable outcome.

 

Bryston have built their reputation on reliability and warranty. They damage their brand if they act inconsistently with that.

 

I would not put a fuse in which is other than authorised by Bryston or the distributor. It is not worth damaging the component in any event. At least they have a user-accessible fuse.

1 hour ago, Addicted to music said:

 

Correct, most designers would have deployed a fuse to be able to cope under everyday operation, they would have incorporated the current required on switch on so it doesn’t “blow”.    They would have also used a rating where under these conditions where it should be triggered; usually operator stupidity like shorting out speaker terminals etc and “if” abnormal current is drawn, this is the value “threshold “ where it should draw the line to reduce the risk of fire. 

So under everyday normal operation a fuse simply should not need to be replaced.

 

Now for example they give you the info where to use a slow blow 3.15A  if it blows this,  then definitely request a replacement unit.

 

They have given me that information (time lag fuse OK), I installed it, and it blew. They are now examining the unit. 

 

Given it is brand new, I have now, after reading the responses in this thread, requested a replacement.

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1 hour ago, Orpheus said:

A to A, I am not as cynical as you, and find in general, if you approach a situation in good faith, you will achieve a reasonable outcome.

 

You would expect that, but my dealings with manufacturers require me to be strictly by the book.  As a service provider if I were to submit a warranty claim everything must tick all the necessary boxes, and this goes with any industry.

 

1 hour ago, Orpheus said:

 

Given it is brand new, I have now, after reading the responses in this thread, requested a replacement.

You need a backup plan in case the replacement also exhibit the same fault.   As far as I’m concern,  the one you have in hand is faulty.

 

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Update. The amp is still being tested. I suspect that they will not replicate the fault, but Bryston's technician in Canada has said it is faulty if it blows a time lag fuse of the correct specification, which it did.

 

I have asked for them to replace with the current model (this model has now been updated), but they refuse to do that.

 

I have asked them to refund my money, but the retailer so far is stalling/refusing, and BusiSoft say it is the retailer's responsibility.

 

Nobody seems to really care about potential damage to Bryston's reputation for reliability and customer service, even though I have drawn their attention to the thread.

 

Better off buying used. At least the gear's been real world tested!

 

 

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