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Home Theatre becoming very expensive to keep up with HDMI revisions...


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HDMI 2.0 (4k) has been with us for less than five years before it was updated with with HDMI 2.0a (HDR)and now HDMI 2.1 (8k).

 

I have an old Onkyo 875 which has HDMI 1.3a (not 3D compliant) which I" cheated" 3D by using a blu-ray play that had two HDMI outs - one directly to the TV and one to audio in the amp. I think you can do this to get 4K working with my HDMI 1.3a Onkyo Amp - plug the blu-ray player via HDMI directly to the TV and another HDMI to the receiver. What are the detriments to this?

 

Now, I am thinking that if I upgrade soon to a HDMI 2.0a or 2.1 amp, I should get seperates - pre/pro and a power amp. This way, when I needed to upgrade, I would just get a new pre/pro and just use the same power amp. In theory, this should keep costs down.

 

Then I looked at the Anthem AVM-60 pre/pro which is RRP$4995 and the equivalent receiver is the Anthem MRX-1120 which is RRP$4999. It's not cheaper to get separates and just upgrade the pre/pro.

 

What are your thoughts on this? Have I looked at the wrong expensive brand? What would you do to keep upgrade costs  down?

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Well... we're just covering audio formats....  and I figured you'd be aware that no PC (not today, or 10 year) can decode Atmos from ThueHD.   .... but as a typical player, it can output Dol

If you don't want the diminishing returns of AV products than don't buy into it, unless you got to have the latest and greatest. Going for a mid tier level AV product to save money at resale is just

Yes.   Let's get something out of the way first.    There is no way to decode Dolby Atmos audio in a computer, and send it to a multichannel audio device.    Dolby has offered no way to do

Anthem have a good reputation, A workmates brother recently spent $40k on HT and he has Anthem amps.

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I think to some extent the modular platforms such as those found on the NADs and Emotivas help with emerging standards and future compatibility.

 

I think separates are still way the way to go if you are invested in the least interference, more power etc. for the dedicated and the invested where $$$ is less of an objective than quality, purity, etc. Of course you also need the space to park those boxes so there is an element of what is suitable to you. I'd love to own separates but owing to other constraints such (space, for example) I have a one box solution.

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The constant changing of HDMI and video standards devalues AVRs and pre-pros faster than they should compared with stereo integrateds and pre amps. I have thus avoided paying top dollars for high end models and instead gone mid tier.

 

Yes, HT can become expensive.

2 hours ago, Serpeant said:

Then I looked at the Anthem AVM-60 pre/pro which is RRP$4995 and the equivalent receiver is the Anthem MRX-1120 which is RRP$4999. It's not cheaper to get separates and just upgrade the pre/pro.

It is not like for like. AVM-60 has better analogue stages for stereo, quieter circuitry. And if you have the space, external power amps are far better than the MRX-1120. Plus you are unlikely to replace the power amps.

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3 hours ago, Serpeant said:

HDMI 2.0 (4k) has been with us for less than five years before it was updated with with HDMI 2.0a (HDR)and now HDMI 2.1 (8k).

 

I have an old Onkyo 875 which has HDMI 1.3a (not 3D compliant) which I" cheated" 3D by using a blu-ray play that had two HDMI outs - one directly to the TV and one to audio in the amp. I think you can do this to get 4K working with my HDMI 1.3a Onkyo Amp - plug the blu-ray player via HDMI directly to the TV and another HDMI to the receiver. What are the detriments to this?

 

Now, I am thinking that if I upgrade soon to a HDMI 2.0a or 2.1 amp, I should get seperates - pre/pro and a power amp. This way, when I needed to upgrade, I would just get a new pre/pro and just use the same power amp. In theory, this should keep costs down.

 

Then I looked at the Anthem AVM-60 pre/pro which is RRP$4995 and the equivalent receiver is the Anthem MRX-1120 which is RRP$4999. It's not cheaper to get separates and just upgrade the pre/pro.

 

What are your thoughts on this? Have I looked at the wrong expensive brand? What would you do to keep upgrade costs  down?

@Serpeant for someone who has negotiated the HDMI jungle from the very early days with all sorts of work arounds, and then every subsequent version.

 

and yes I did 3D work around myself. and yes also the 4k work around..... and then work around within work arounds too :D to fool/fix some of the things we have in place. 

 

the detriments of the using dual HDMI out.... is simple... and this applies to 3D just as much as 4k uhd... ie you end up splitting the audio streams processing from the video streams processing... ie video by the display and audio via audio processor. and what you open yourself upto is issues with audio and video being out of synch, at times it will be small enough not to notice ... others long enough it becomes a bother. and I know there are lip synch delays can put in place however these are not dynamic ie they don't self adjust depending on processing load. os not quite effective enough.

 

when you use one hdmi stream from source to processor to display what happens is its the actually audio stream that keeps everything in synch... no lip synch issues.  

 

re versions of HDMI there have been quite a few. some I feel are essential others not so. eg those who bought things not hdmi 2.0 even though claims were made of 4k soon found them selves caught out with hdcp. yes there are work arounds eg strippers and such but they can also introduce their own hurdles. most makers worth salt provided updates from hdmi 2.0 to 2.0a 2.0b not worth talking about it was just a firmware update in most cases.

 

hdmi 2.1... is a non essential in my beleif. at it is really talking about hdmi e-arc...who cares.... we have mostly all worked around hdmi audio returns which are a nuisance and hinderance more than anything. then there are dynamic frame rates... which will only apply to gaming. nothing else. also there is nothing that supports it in display land in TVs and projectors. may never be. we live in a world of fixed frame rates for content and displays and likely what will stick with.

 

so ... buy and buy with confidence id suggest anything current gen hdmi hdmi 2.0 a/b and will be fine. and you will be fine with anything in last 3 or so years even back.

 

as to 

3 hours ago, Serpeant said:

Then I looked at the Anthem AVM-60 pre/pro which is RRP$4995 and the equivalent receiver is the Anthem MRX-1120 which is RRP$4999. It's not cheaper to get separates and just upgrade the pre/pro.

re separates vs AVR solution this is a separate question. though some what related...

 

this is approach i have taken in last 10+ years .... and its paid off. amps stay and processors come and go. though keep in mind the good makers eg denon and marantz have made sure eg with my denon processor that 8 years on in owners ship they were still providing updates both hard ware and soft ware. and I know my denon which would be now 12 years old is still out there doing its thing. my marantz processor though 4 years old ! yes amazingly now 4 years on ...still does everything thrown at it cutting edge in 4kuhd all the latest sound formats and such and supported in hardware and software updates in all that time ! how many makers do this ? i can easily see this supporting things next few years might even get to 8 years with it like did with the denon.

 

in scheme of things ... it seems it major format releases that drive OEM major updates... think DVD, blu-ray.  3D video, 3D audio, uhd blu-ray. we seem pretty settled now on the audio video fronts. theres nothing else really on radar can see..... so sit back enjoy.... let the years go by :) 

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56 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

The constant changing of HDMI and video standards devalues AVRs and pre-pros faster than they should compared with stereo integrateds and pre amps. I have thus avoided paying top dollars for high end models and instead gone mid tier.

 

Yes, HT can become expensive.

 

it can. I saved I dont know how many AVR updates in the 8 years owned my denon aVP and have not had to do one update change out on the processing side last 4 years and still fully capable in the tech front . so while can be expensive you can also be at a point with processing that you do not need to keep changing things out every couple of years....

 

56 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

It is not like for like. AVM-60 has better analogue stages for stereo, quieter circuitry. And if you have the space, external power amps are far better than the MRX-1120. Plus you are unlikely to replace the power amps.

 

the anthem AVRs power stages are not greatly specd. most AVRs are not. even in form factor you couldnt fit the kind of room a stand alone multi channel power amp needs inside an avr sop huge compromises are made. power amps can go decades ....

 

an avr can be a cost effective one box route, but you compromise the amp side and also will have to churn the whole lot out when comes to upgrade time. there are SO many affordable amp options these days..... both new and 2nd hand. 

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4 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

The constant changing of HDMI and video standards devalues AVRs and pre-pros faster than they should compared with stereo integrateds and pre amps. I have thus avoided paying top dollars for high end models and instead gone mid tier.

That is a great idea. Go mid tier models rather than high end. I'd rather have the latest mid tier than obselete old high ends.

 

Are there any mid tier brands that you might recommend. I could justify Anthem, but not if it gets outdated within 5 years time.

 

I could get a good power amp to last for a long time and mid tier pre/pro every five years.

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23 minutes ago, Serpeant said:

That is a great idea. Go mid tier models rather than high end. I'd rather have the latest mid tier than obselete old high ends.

 

Are there any mid tier brands that you might recommend. I could justify Anthem, but not if it gets outdated within 5 years time.

 

I could get a good power amp to last for a long time and mid tier pre/pro every five years.

id rather suggest mid tier AV processor with amp than mid tier AVR :) the thing with processors even if you went with something 3 years old right now (eg what have ) you are not missing out....  amps you can get anything from 3-5+ years it doesnt matter...and any thoughts of depreciation already been carved. 

 

plenty of great options 2nd hand. I wouldnt ignore those.... 

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1 hour ago, Serpeant said:

Are there any mid tier brands that you might recommend. I could justify Anthem, but not if it gets outdated within 5 years time.

Am using a NAD T758V3...

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16 hours ago, Satanica said:

I have kept cost down going from HDMI 1.4 to 2.0 with a HDMI Switcher/Matrix but I know it's probably not for everyone.

As I wasn't into atmos at the time this was a good option for my old UMC200 as I needed a 2nd hdmi out but still a good strategy for UHD if you don't want atmos/dts-x decoding immediately :) And a viable option with a T758v3's sparse 3 hdmi ins if you do ..

 

Serpeant ; if you want to be future proofed for hdmi2.1 [ though depends on whether your a gamer or want E-ARC for example and better cec compatibility] and want the very latest  chipsets and don't mind paying for a true pre pro some other options are coming ..

These may seem exxy but compared to the likes of a datasat or trinnov  you wont get better value for a complete 15.1.6 atmos setup -unless you have an Emo 40% card or something :whistle:

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=37887

https://www.cepro.com/article/16_channel_acurus_muse_processor_dolby_atmos_dtsx?eid=438814252&bid=2369482

 

 

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If you don't want the diminishing returns of AV products than don't buy into it, unless you got to have the latest and greatest.

Going for a mid tier level AV product to save money at resale is just a half ass solution. Even a budget stereo setup will be miles better than a mid tier AV product.

I have abandoned AV gear for the same reason as you, depreciation of AV gear, and for the reason that it hardly ever performs at the same level as a good stereo setup, unless you have to money.

What I am using is a Media PC, with graphic cards that are cheap to upgrade, unless you are into gaming. I use a high quality pro audio DAC, (priced at a mid tier Pre Pro but keeps it value a lot better), no pre amplifier, and a multitude of stereo power amps.

Sound quality is as good as a (very) good stereo setup, new HDMI specs or 8k video card upgrades are usually cheap, PC powered DSP and room correction, and if I need more channels, I can upgrade the DAC by adding another 8 channels. Each audio product keeps a strong resale value

Downside, it's not workable for the whole family and no Atmos or DTS-X decoding possible on a PC yet.

It's a bit of a learning curve but the results are rewarding.

Forget about upgrade components for AV gear. Those platforms also have a rather limited lifespan. And each upgrade easily costs a third of the price of your AV product.

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[mention=144775]Primare Knob[/mention] 

 

PC into Dac into Amps?

 

 

Yes. I have compared this with a high quality stereo pre amplifier, and could not find a difference. This doesn't always work with every DAC, so try it before buy/selling it, as it depends on the synergy between DAC and Amp.

 

What software? [soundcard]? how is the PC connected to the DAC? and what's the DAC?

 

Software can be any media player, but I use JRiver as it has an advanced DSP software. You could also use Dirac, but that is expensive for a multichannel setup, or other alternatives.

 

Soundcard is a Pro Audio DAC. It can be any multichannel DAC, but there is more choice in the pro audio world then there is in the hifi world.

 

Connection can be anything. Mine works via USB, but there is also Dante, Thunderbolt, AES, and others. It all depends on the configuration you choose. Pro audio gear is highly flexible.

 

Volume control is digital via JRiver, and you need to take bits into account here. If your speakers are efficient and amps powerful, it is possible to degrade the audio by to much digital attenuation, DSP included.

 

My DAC can be switched between consumer -10dBV and pro audio +4dBUv (high gain) output signals.

 

The thing that makes this hard to work with for the family, is to double check volume control before turning anything on, as there is no volume attenuation between DAC and amplifiers. And the sequence in which you turn gear on or off can also introduce nasty pops, that scare the crap out of people. Working with a PC isn't as 100% reliable or straight forward as with other gear. Sometimes things just don't work for a reason, but I haven't had to many issues in that regard.

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13 hours ago, Primare Knob said:

If you don't want the diminishing returns of AV products than don't buy into it, unless you got to have the latest and greatest.

Going for a mid tier level AV product to save money at resale is just a half ass solution. Even a budget stereo setup will be miles better than a mid tier AV product.

I have abandoned AV gear for the same reason as you, depreciation of AV gear, and for the reason that it hardly ever performs at the same level as a good stereo setup, unless you have to money.

What I am using is a Media PC, with graphic cards that are cheap to upgrade, unless you are into gaming. I use a high quality pro audio DAC, (priced at a mid tier Pre Pro but keeps it value a lot better), no pre amplifier, and a multitude of stereo power amps.

Sound quality is as good as a (very) good stereo setup, new HDMI specs or 8k video card upgrades are usually cheap, PC powered DSP and room correction, and if I need more channels, I can upgrade the DAC by adding another 8 channels. Each audio product keeps a strong resale value

Downside, it's not workable for the whole family and no Atmos or DTS-X decoding possible on a PC yet.

It's a bit of a learning curve but the results are rewarding.

Forget about upgrade components for AV gear. Those platforms also have a rather limited lifespan. And each upgrade easily costs a third of the price of your AV product.

This is pretty much me too and my HDMI  1.4 to 2.0 Programmable Martrix upgrade was a mere $400.

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1 hour ago, Primare Knob said:

The thing that makes this hard to work with for the family, is to double check volume control before turning anything on, as there is no volume attenuation between DAC and amplifiers. And the sequence in which you turn gear on or off can also introduce nasty pops, that scare the crap out of people. Working with a PC isn't as 100% reliable or straight forward as with other gear. Sometimes things just don't work for a reason, but I haven't had to many issues in that regard.

That’s the problem ... in 8 years owned my last av pre pro plus 4 years the current, shudder to think how many computers went through in that time... one retired... one was pensioned and one new. And these not even htpcs just base computers. How many updates have  the computers  had in that time ? Not sure week goes by with something or other updating :D av pre pros certainly had updates to. But far less frequent and stable.

 

as you say the av pre pros just seem to work .. my daughter age ten grown up through 2 av pre pros ... seamless to her. Still universal interface behind don’t have to bother whet behind it :) we live in a remarkable age where kids from toddler age can operate and navigate through a complex system :) .. child’s play ...indeed !

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That’s the problem ... in 8 years owned my last av pre pro plus 4 years the current, shudder to think how many computers went through in that time... one retired... one was pensioned and one new. And these not even htpcs just base computers. How many updates have  the computers  had in that time ? Not sure week goes by with something or other updating [emoji3] av pre pros certainly had updates to. But far less frequent and stable.
 
as you say the av pre pros just seem to work .. my daughter age ten grown up through 2 av pre pros ... seamless to her. Still universal interface behind don’t have to bother whet behind it [emoji4] we live in a remarkable age where kids from toddler age can operate and navigate through a complex system [emoji4] .. child’s play ...indeed !
We are getting a bit off topic here, but updates and upgrades are 2 different things. You really don't need a fancy PC for a HTPC setup, as even the ones that are 10 year old will perform this task. Besides you can prevent your OS from updating, as the risk with a HTPC are rather slim.

The difficulty is not with the user interface, as that is controlled via a Phone/app, and my 5 year old has no problem with it. It is more about you kind of have to know what you are doing to prevent issues.

The old Pre Pro had to be a Swiss Army knife, but these days with everything happening online, it could do with a diet of obsolete inputs for most people. You can still use a Pre Pro in my setup as a Pre Amplifier to make life easy, and an old High End unit can be found for cheap.

But to get back on topic, for the past couple of years I don't think that there has been a AV manufacturer that hasn't had a problem with faulty HDMI related issues.
My personal opinion is that HDMI is a nice idea to deal with cables, but isn't great for audio. I am looking forward to the day that that is being replaced with Ethernet.

Just saying that if you want to, you can replace your AV setup with non AV gear, and keep getting up with the times, a fair bit cheaper.

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2 hours ago, Primare Knob said:

The thing that makes this hard to work with for the family, is to double check volume control before turning anything on, as there is no volume attenuation between DAC and amplifiers. And the sequence in which you turn gear on or off can also introduce nasty pops, that scare the crap out of people.

I don't have these issues. In fact JRiver's features such as Startup Volume per zone and Volume Protection make it far more safe than any hardware I've come across.

Edited by Satanica
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I don't have these issues. In fact JRiver's features such as Startup Volume per zone and Volume Protection make it far more safe than any hardware I've come across.
I am more talking about the fact that there is no volume control between DAC and Amp. When I turn on the DAC after turning on the Amp it will be accompanied with a loud pop as the DAC output becomes live which the Amp picks up. The more powerful the Amp or Subwoofer, the louder the pop.

I haven't really had any volume related issues with JRiver, but you don't want them to happen either, and turning on the PC before turning on anything else helps to prevent that. Just as a fail safe.
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23 minutes ago, Primare Knob said:

We are getting a bit off topic here, but updates and upgrades are 2 different things. You really don't need a fancy PC for a HTPC setup, as even the ones that are 10 year old will perform this task. Besides you can prevent your OS from updating, as the risk with a HTPC are rather slim.

absolutely impossible. 10 years ago PCs had no support for audio formats let alone Picture formats we have now. as you say you still dont have support for the audio side.

 

as far as stopping OS updating that won't work for very long. know that from pers experience.

23 minutes ago, Primare Knob said:

The difficulty is not with the user interface, as that is controlled via a Phone/app, and my 5 year old has no problem with it. It is more about you kind of have to know what you are doing to prevent issues.

but thats the thing... one just doesnt have issues :)

 

23 minutes ago, Primare Knob said:

The old Pre Pro had to be a Swiss Army knife, but these days with everything happening online, it could do with a diet of obsolete inputs for most people. You can still use a Pre Pro in my setup as a Pre Amplifier to make life easy, and an old High End unit can be found for cheap.

not sure what the point here is. you very much do need upto date pre pros. these are kept to date for most makers but no Old as in how old dont now what vintage you are talking but my "old now would be 10 years old av pre pro I changed over 4 years ago from wont do...without a lot of work arounds which are not really practicable and certainly it had no capability of current day audio which lets face it is even presented to us via online sources :) updates and upgrades are still needed. and most makers provide this to you with hard ware and soft ware updates. 

 

23 minutes ago, Primare Knob said:

My personal opinion is that HDMI is a nice idea to deal with cables, but isn't great for audio. I am looking forward to the day that that is being replaced with Ethernet.

Just saying that if you want to, you can replace your AV setup with non AV gear, and keep getting up with the times, a fair bit cheaper.

i have had absolutely no problems with hdmi audio. I dont know what problem you have with it. :)

 

by all means replace AV with non aV but on same account it might not provide the AV someone might be looking for. ofcourse we have all our own needs and this might perfectly suit yours which is fine :)

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2 hours ago, betty boop said:

absolutely impossible. 10 years ago PCs had no support for audio formats let alone Picture formats we have now. as you say you still dont have support for the audio side.

Audio formats are not an issue... as these are all supported in software - so modern software running on a 10yo computer will handle all today audio just fine.

 

The issue is hardware accelerated video.   10yo computer hardware doesn't have acceleration of H265 so, while it will be able to understand the video format (software tells it this) - the playback performance will be too low.

 

2 hours ago, betty boop said:

as far as stopping OS updating that won't work for very long. know that from pers experience.

To get it to be permanent - you need to edit setting which aren't exposed through the GUI.    But updates=off isn't recommended.

 

Quote

HDMI is a nice idea to deal with cables, but isn't great for audio. I am looking forward to the day that that is being replaced with Ethernet.

2 hours ago, betty boop said:

i have had absolutely no problems with hdmi audio. I dont know what problem you have with it.

Audio over HDMI typically doesn't perform as well as other types of digital interfaces...   Although there's no intrinsic reason why audio over the ethernet protocol would perform any better/worse - just depends on how much effort they put into the devices.

 

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3 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

Audio formats are not an issue... as these are all supported in software - so modern software running on a 10yo computer will handle all today audio just fine.

really now ? pray tell how a 10 year old pc has ANY capability for 11.2.5 audio I am running off current AV processor. We didnt even have that let alone know it would eventuate all those years ago. point me to a 10 year old pc with 11.2.5 analog pre outs.... post me a pc from 10 years ago with such 1.2.5 pre outputs to feed power amps :D 

 

as far as software support for 10 year old pcs thats clutching how do I know. I happen to have one...

 

if you are talking about still using a 2008 pc living in 2008 world. my dad does that with his 2008 denon 3808. and has not had to do one update to the thing. the thing still works. it wont even support 3D video let alone 3D audio or latest audio let alone video formats just as a pc from 2008 wont either..

 

tech moves on... cant hold back pace of progress, most realise and move on as well or keep using content within  whatever capabilities or limitations might have.

 

3 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

Audio over HDMI typically doesn't perform as well as other types of digital interfaces...   Although there's no intrinsic reason why audio over the ethernet protocol would perform any better/worse - just depends on how much effort they put into the devices.

Really ? THE best audio AV we have RIGHT now is over hdmi. forget-about-it for any other digital interfaces. go and do av audio over ethernet or "other types of digital interfaces" but be  having a lend of yourself. :) 

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23 minutes ago, betty boop said:

really now?

Yes.

 

23 minutes ago, betty boop said:

pray tell how a 10 year old pc has ANY capability for 11.2.5 audio I am running off current AV processor.

Let's get something out of the way first.    There is no way to decode Dolby Atmos audio in a computer, and send it to a multichannel audio device.    Dolby has offered no way to do this.   The only way to decode Dolby Atmos multichannel audio is through the firmware in an AV processor.

 

Of course, as there is no way to do this with a PC today, then there was obviously no way to do it 10 years ago.

 

 

Otherwise - Any computer with an HDMI 1.3 output can pass Dolby Atmos audio to an AV processor.

 

That's been possible since 2006, although Windows operating systems (PAP) didn't catch up to this until 2009.    ie. any computer from ~10 years (with a HDMI port) can do this.

 

23 minutes ago, betty boop said:

We didnt even have that let alone know it would eventuate all those years ago

That's right.   Atmos needs hardware/software support in the source device which has been around 13 years.   (Specifically Dolby TrueHD support)

 

23 minutes ago, betty boop said:

point me to a 10 year old pc with 11.2.5 analog pre outs.... come on show me

... post me a pc from 10 years ago with such 1.2.5 pre outputs to feed power amps. 

Notwithstanding the fact that you can't use the analogue outputs for Dolby Atmos .... 

 

My choice was the TC Konnekt48 ... which is a PC audio device with 12 analogue outputs.    You can daisy chain many of them together though to get as many audio channels as desired.

 

Of the top of my head you could also had used a Lynx Aurora (16 channel), with a PCI card.....  otherwise, I'd have to get my 2009 catalogues out to check.

 

23 minutes ago, betty boop said:

as far as software support for 10 year old pcs thats clutching how do I know. I happen to have one...

I'm not clutching at anything.

 

A 10 year old PC is able to run a recent version of Windows .... and run the latest software (eg. VLC, Plex, Kodi) which knows how to decode all the audio formats you can name  (except Dolby Atmos - because no computer can).

 

Perhaps your PC has problems .... but that just means you have a crap PC, or are doing it wrong.

 

23 minutes ago, betty boop said:

if you are talking about still using a 2008 pc living in 2008 world

No.   I mean exactly what I said.   A 10 year old PC (compared to a PC purchased today) has ZERO issues with today's audio formats .   ZERO ...... Yet you say words like "impossible" and "no support"....  You may as well be saying "up is down".

 

23 minutes ago, betty boop said:

just as a pc from 2008 wont either..

No.   A PC runs software which is updated regularly so the computer can understand new audio formats.

 

Heaps of people don't know this stuff - that's fine ..... but can you do those people a favour by stopping pretending that you do.

 

23 minutes ago, betty boop said:

tech moves on... cant hold back pace of progress, most realise and move on as well or keep using content within whatever capabilities or limitations might have.

Or .. If they use a computer .... the software gets updated so the old computer can play the new formats.

 

We could try this in the opposite way.   Tell us an audio format which exists today .... that cannot be played on a PC from 10 years ago.    Just name one?!    We'll wait.

 

23 minutes ago, betty boop said:

Really ? THE best audio AV we have RIGHT now is over hdmi.

Yes.  So?   How does that diminish the validity of what I said?

 

What I said still stands.   The way HDMI audio is designed, is that it's almost always implemented in a way which is less than ideal, compared to other ways to transport audio.     In short it is to do with how the audio clock is treated..

 

23 minutes ago, betty boop said:

go and do av audio over ethernet or "other types of digital interfaces" if want to have a lend of yourself. 

I didn't really suggest he should.

 

.... but he could....  and he could do it with a 10 year old PC as the player.

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3 hours ago, betty boop said:

or keep using content within  whatever capabilities or limitations might have

Yes, exactly.   A 10 year old computer doesn't have any limitations in what audio formats it can play..... so you can use all content.

 

 

 

Except Atmos, as mentioned.  Although - everyone knows that no computer* can decode it

 

*  No computer except Trinnov.    Trinnov AV processors are actually PCs inside .... and they have been provided exclusive Atmos decoder firmware for the PC from Dolby.

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21 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Yes, exactly.   A 10 year old computer doesn't have any limitations in what audio formats it can play..... so you can use all content.

 

 

 

Except Atmos, as mentioned.  Although - everyone knows that no computer* can decode it

 

blarddy hell. so it cant handle video off today or audio of today...as i said ... :D 

 

21 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

*  No computer except Trinnov.    Trinnov AV processors are actually PCs inside .... and they have been provided exclusive Atmos decoder firmware for the PC from Dolby.

 

no one had a flippin trinov 10 years ago masquerading as a PC. and if OP can afford a trinov now am sure they wouldnt be here posting the point they did ! :P

 

I think i will pass, at this point further partaking in discourse....😌

 

reminder to self to not get drawn into utterly meaningless theoretical discussions with absolutely no grounding in practicalities of the day .... 😧 

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18 minutes ago, betty boop said:

blarddy hell. so it cant handle video off today or audio of today...as i said ...

Well... we're just covering audio formats....  and I figured you'd be aware that no PC (not today, or 10 year) can decode Atmos from ThueHD.

 

.... but as a typical player, it can output Dolby Atmos just fine to a decoder.

 

18 minutes ago, betty boop said:

no one had a flippin trinov 10 years ago

Yes, you seem to have misunderstood.    I realise they weren't around 10 years ago.

 

I said... no computer (not even one made today) can decode Atmos.

 

... but just to be completely complete - there is one exception to identify.  Trinnov.

 

Quote

reminder to self to not get drawn into utterly meaningless theoretical discussions with absolutely no grounding

Yes - It would be wise, to not make statements about computers which are false.   It will really confuse people - and someone will need to correct you.

 

Quote

as i said ...

No Al.

 

What you said, is essentially that a 10 year old computer isn't good enough to do the audio of today (ie. it does worse than a computer made today, because technology moves on etc.)

 

.... but the reality is that there is not ONE SINGLE audio format which a new computer can play today .... that a 10 year old computer can't play.

 

You're full of it.    I'm disappointed I wasted such a patient reply on you.

Edited by davewantsmoore
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  • 2 weeks later...

I have a Primare SP 33 and Primare BD 32 disc player running through an Epson tw 9200 projector with 112 firmware and the 1080p picture is great. I recently had a demo of the Epson TW 9300 with 4K upscale and to be honest I could not see any differences to 1080p.

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Yes it is very expensive to keep up with the latest hdmi format for those with high end processors I will stay with what I have until hdmi format is more stable.

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9 hours ago, Sp 33 said:

I have a Primare SP 33 and Primare BD 32 disc player running through an Epson tw 9200 projector with 112 firmware and the 1080p picture is great. I recently had a demo of the Epson TW 9300 with 4K upscale and to be honest I could not see any differences to 1080p.

I would compare to the latest TW9400 SP33 ; Epson doesn't have projector upgrades with the frequency of some others and you need the latest model to evaluate UHD Bd;s :) heres a short review ;

https://www.avhub.com.au/product-reviews/sound-image/epson-eh-tw9400w-projector-review-523898

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9 hours ago, Sp 33 said:

I have a Primare SP 33 and Primare BD 32 disc player running through an Epson tw 9200 projector with 112 firmware and the 1080p picture is great. I recently had a demo of the Epson TW 9300 with 4K upscale and to be honest I could not see any differences to 1080p.

what cwt says is quite right. the 9300 had capability with UHD and if experienced with it you get benefit of WCG, HDR, and also additional resolution... fed the right material and presuming its been setup properly to take advantage. over just blu-ray ie 1080p you woudl likely not see huge gains but most definitely if not seeing benefit with uhd, id be asking why :) keeping in mind just like with blu-ray there are certainly some uhd discs that provide more benefit for the uhd format than others. 

6 hours ago, Sp 33 said:

Yes it is very expensive to keep up with the latest hdmi format for those with high end processors I will stay with what I have until hdmi format is more stable.

yes and no sp33. if you bought at the dawn of the formats eg blu-ray there was really only one update ie 3D all else were covered for. unless buying something pre format :) and why as i indicated I managed with av processor some 8 years ... only update was the 3D update which my maker provided. same goes with the format now.

 

similarly if you bought in 3 years ago ? for gear to support uhd ? then you are likely still supported. infact with many gear even earlier in 2015 when uhd was announced makers brought out gear that woudl support the format going forward. eg my av pre pro from 2015 fully supports the format. doing everything can throw at it. the maker in my case provided updates to keep maintained both hard ware and soft ware. 

 

as far as settling down going forth ? only thing coming is HDMI 2.1 what does it support ? not much more .... and really only variable frame rates which might be useful for gaming ? not that much if anything supports it now in any case. there is some 8k capability and eARc it brings. 8k complete waste with anything  have now and dubious of any use going forward ? as to eArc is it really essential. none of these things are. like for many you wont see any need to update as such. especially if what have does everything can throw at it ... now ... 

 

as far was waiting for things to   settle down. you cant hold back progress. but only you can decide what is most important and whether worth updating or not :)

 

 

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On 02/06/2019 at 2:01 PM, Sp 33 said:

Yes it is very expensive to keep up with the latest hdmi format for those with high end processors I will stay with what I have until hdmi format is more stable.

Will it ever be "more stable"?

 

HDMI 2.1 has a ridiculous bandwidth of 48 Gbps and supposedly can handle up to 10k.

 

However, I still suspect there will be HDMI 2.2 within a few years...

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At this point in time 8k HDMI cable to suit the coming HDMI 2.1 TV's and devices  will be very expensive, currently HDMI copper cbales can go to 3m over that HDMI Fibre is the go, however there is no 8k content, but gamers will enjoy the max bandwidth oh 48Gbps.

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  • 1 year later...

@davewantsmoore

 

I think you miss the point of an AVR and why it absolutely shits on a frankenstein "I know better than everyone else" setup.

 

1. You can actually play Dolby TrueHD, DTS Master HD etc. which is crucial to modern cinema and blu-ray concerts. This single reason alone makes frankenstein pointless.

2. For basic TV with the missus, you can use ARC with usual dolby standard 5.1 and use the TV apps. FAR nicer for simplicities sake.

3. No one can use or troubleshoot frankenstein and you spend more time ******* around with it than actually just enjoying the entertainment.

4. Your power useage, space and clutter becomes an absolute mess with frankenstein. 

5. Subwoofer integration. Using LFE channel with ARC (Anthem) Dirac (Emotiva etc.) is FAR superior for an 'all around' easy solution for room correct and crossover setup of subs (or multiple subs!)

6. Everything 'Just Works' while providing the highest quality experience overall so long as you can afford a decent system such as an anthem/emotiva level or higher.

 

Using a reciever to me (Or seperates with a processor) is a no brainer. Tried the frankenstein route, absolute pain in the ass just spend the money.

Edited by Snook
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2 hours ago, Snook said:

@davewantsmoore

 

I think you miss the point of an AVR

No... not at all.

 

What I was saying is that a computer is able to output the audio needed (eg. surround formats.... of all types) to an surround processor (eg. an AVR, or an "AV preamp).

 

The reason I was mentioning this is to content with Betty Boops claim that a 10 year old computer couldn't do that as well as a computer of today.    He is wrong about that.  a 10 year old computer, and a current computer, will both output do either:

 

  1. Decode audio, where it is possible.... and play the audio through analogue or digital outputs
  2. Bitstream audio, to a decoder.....  this way it can handle any audio format (as it is just a bitstream), as you're likely already aware

 

Here is the quote/response I was specificlly addressing.

 

Quote

 

 On 21/05/2019 at 12:11 PM, Primare Knob said:

We are getting a bit off topic here, but updates and upgrades are 2 different things. You really don't need a fancy PC for a HTPC setup, as even the ones that are 10 year old will perform this task. Besides you can prevent your OS from updating, as the risk with a HTPC are rather slim.

absolutely impossible. 10 years ago PCs had no support for audio formats let alone Picture formats we have now. as you say you still dont have support for the audio side.

 

 

 

Betty is very wrong about this.    A 10 year old PC can do #1 (from my points above) just as well as a PC made today..... A 10 year old PC can do #2 (from my points above) just as well as a PC made today.

 

 

2 hours ago, Snook said:

"I know better than everyone else" setup.

LOL, you misunderstand.

Quote

1. You can actually play Dolby TrueHD, DTS Master HD etc. which is crucial to modern cinema and blu-ray concerts. This single reason alone makes frankenstein pointless.

A computer (a "HTPC") will output these formats to a decoder.

Quote

2. For basic TV with the missus, you can use ARC with usual dolby standard 5.1 and use the TV apps. FAR nicer for simplicities sake.

Many people just run everything through their HTPC.

Mine does liveTV/recordedTV.... has all other apps you could want .... all with a little AppleTV remote.

 

... but simplicity is subjective.   My mussus prefers it that everything has a consistent look (ie. Plex) for live, recorded, movies, music, etc..,....  Your might like a different looking app for everything ;) 

Quote

3. No one can use or troubleshoot frankenstein

My HTPC boots right to plex....  there;s nothing to support.   In fact I've had more "support" issues with my FetchTV box.

Quote

and you spend more time ******* around with it than actually just enjoying the entertainment.

Nope.

Quote

4. Your power useage, space and clutter becomes an absolute mess with frankenstein. 

My PC is very small.    My TV is mounted on the wall, and between the TV and the wall there is an AppleTV and a HTPC (they're similar sizes)

 

Quote

5. Subwoofer integration. Using LFE channel with ARC (Anthem) Dirac (Emotiva etc.) is FAR superior for an 'all around' easy solution for room correct and crossover setup of subs (or multiple subs!)

My decoder is a NAD T753 v3 ....    It doesn't matter whether the source is a TV, a HTPC, a BDP, or something esle.

 

Quote

6. Everything 'Just Works'

Everything just works using a computer as your source too.... if you use the right software/hardware.

 

Quote

Tried the frankenstein route

Perhaps when you say "frankenstein" .... you're thinking of something different to me.

 

What I was talking about is the source being a computer (ie. a "HTPC").

 

 

Betty said you need to keep getting a new computer to keep audio and video support working.

 

What actually happened is somebody uttered the word "HTPC" .... and Betty doesn't actually understand what one of those really is  (which is why he replied saying this:)

 

On 21/05/2019 at 4:37 PM, betty boop said:

really now ? pray tell how a 10 year old pc has ANY capability for 11.2.5 audio I am running off current AV processor. We didnt even have that let alone know it would eventuate all those years ago. point me to a 10 year old pc with 11.2.5 analog pre outs.... post me a pc from 10 years ago with such 1.2.5 pre outputs to feed power amps 

Love the tone eh?!  Pray tell....

 

The computer/HTPC is the source (ie. replaces a BDP, or other media player) .... not the decoder/pre/amp.

 

He doesn't understand that computer fall into two categories...... and a computer 10 years old can do it just as well as a computer today.

 

1.   Bitstream audio to a decoder via HDMI (just like a BDP or other media player does)

 

2.   Get a computer with multiple analogue outputs (I have a PC with 16) .... Betty thinks they don't exist .... and you can play any formats except Atmos/DTSX  (the software decoders for this will never be released).

 

Most people do #1 .... but #2 is not

On 21/05/2019 at 12:28 PM, betty boop said:

absolutely impossible. 10 years ago PCs had no support for audio formats

 

Grab any 10 year old computer.... and it will play all formats except Atmos.    If you buy a nice audio interface for it, you can have lots of channels.

 

 

 

LOL

Edited by davewantsmoore
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my pre amp is still using HDMI 1.4  uhd player splits the 4k signal out and that goes direct to my projector.  The only thing i have ever had a lip sync issue on is a FTA decoder box.  Never had an issue with lip sync on a blueray, uhd netflix or amazon prime.

 

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On 20/05/2019 at 8:42 PM, Primare Knob said:

Downside, it's not workable for the whole family and no Atmos or DTS-X decoding possible on a PC yet.

Except for Trinnov and Storm Audio.

 

FFmpeg's dca now native encoder has been able to decode DTS-HD surround sound losslessly since forever ago. What it cannot decode is the DTS:X and Dobly Atmos 3d objects metadata. Or how Bob Pariseau describes it extra "sprinkles".

 

Your average AVR can barley provide proper functionality due to the excess amount of channels Atmos asks of it to provide, most of which barley ends up being used, all for the sake of better marketability. Do you really trust it to properly implement DTS:X/Atmos which is majority height information and very latency/setup dependant? 

 

I also don't see the need for HT to be needing the bandwidth requirements of the latest HDMI revision. Majority of the content is at 1080p, newer titles at 4k and a tiny amount at higher resolutions for those forunate enough to be part of writers guild. 

 

On 04/06/2019 at 9:24 AM, EZYHD said:

At this point in time 8k HDMI cable to suit the coming HDMI 2.1 TV's and devices  will be very expensive, currently HDMI copper cbales can go to 3m over that HDMI Fibre is the go, however there is no 8k content, but gamers will enjoy the max bandwidth oh 48Gbps.

My monitor bypass the bandwidth limiting bottleneck (as connectivity standards catch up) by bonding 2x DisplayPorts 1.4 to output 144hz @ 4k 10bit (8bit + FRC).

Edited by Essence
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1 hour ago, Essence said:

EZYHD said: At this point in time 8k HDMI cable to suit the coming HDMI 2.1 TV's and devices  will be very expensive,

LOL.   I bought one from monoprice about a year ago for like $10.

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Agreed it has/is expensive. 

 

I'm a cynic on all this and believe this is the only way they can sustain their industry, by making things continually obsolete.

 

I dropped out early and invested in good stereo and make do with dual stereo now for 4.0 for HT. At some point I may hack a sound bar to pieces or other to try atmos.

 

Fully believe in AV you need to either suck it up and keep forking out money every few years, as this is what your masters dictate. Or sit back and relax. 

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