t_mike Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 On 10/06/2019 at 12:55 AM, Mat-with-one-t said: Yoiks gentlemen! 12” armtubes are $1250! I’ll have a baker’s dozen! That's cheap compared to going from an SME V to an SME V12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat-with-one-t Posted June 11, 2019 Author Share Posted June 11, 2019 19 minutes ago, t_mike said: That's cheap compared to going from an SME V to an SME V12. True, however I need to buy the whole setup. Thus, a tonearm for upwards of $2k, THEN extra tubes...... Not sure if it would lend itself to a good economic proposition. Plus, I can't see the practicality of having to carefully store an armtube with a mounted cart ready for swapping, vs a bunch of ready-to-go headshells.... Am I missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t_mike Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 The SME V12 has a removable headshell. The headshells are half the price of those armtubes, so it may be a proposition depending on how may shells you wanted. It may be arguably a better arm too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted June 11, 2019 Share Posted June 11, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, Mat-with-one-t said: True, however I need to buy the whole setup. Thus, a tonearm for upwards of $2k, THEN extra tubes...... Not sure if it would lend itself to a good economic proposition. Plus, I can't see the practicality of having to carefully store an armtube with a mounted cart ready for swapping, vs a bunch of ready-to-go headshells.... Am I missing something? Yes, you are, Mat. It is certainly cheaper to store a headshell with a spare cart ... than a spare arm tube with a cart. However, the carts you store with each headshell each have to match with your arm (in weight / compliance vs. the eff. weight of your arm) - whereas the different eff-weight Moerch arm tubes allow carts which match different arm effective weights ... to be used on the same arm assembly! So you have a wider choice of carts! Andy Edited June 11, 2019 by andyr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat-with-one-t Posted June 11, 2019 Author Share Posted June 11, 2019 16 minutes ago, andyr said: Yes, you are, Mat. It is certainly cheaper to store a headshell with a spare cart ... than a spare arm tube with a cart. However, the carts you store with each headshell each have to match with your arm (in weight / compliance vs. the eff. weight of your arm) - whereas the different eff-weight Moerch arm tubes allow carts which match different arm effective weights ... to be used on the same arm assembly! So you have a wider choice of carts! Andy Gotcha Andy. I can’t however see myself owning a Moerch arm with, say, 3 arms to make the system worthwhile. That’s $2.5k in spare arms! Just out of interest, with a family member who owns a toolmaking business and is a genius with all things metal, what’s the possibility of simply fabricating some extras? I know there’s a lot of precision and many variables, but especially with a straight arm, I can’t see it being difficult for him..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salectric Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 I have owned three 12” arms—Schick, Moerch DP-6 and Analog Instruments Siggwan. The best sounding of these, by far, is the Siggwan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 On 04/07/2019 at 3:35 AM, Salectric said: I have owned three 12” arms—Schick, Moerch DP-6 and Analog Instruments Siggwan. The best sounding of these, by far, is the Siggwan. Interesting David - can you tell me why you regard this as a better-sounding arm, compared to the others? I presume this was using the same cart? I Googled the 'Siggwan' - it looks very similar to my 12" 'Univector' (which, unfortunately, is no longer available ... as the 'big C' got its maker a couple of years ago ). The Univector is a very heavy arm (eff weight 23gm, with an ebony arm wand) but it matches my ZYX Airy3 very well. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salectric Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 It’s been a few years since I sold the Schick so I looked through my emails to find some details about its sound quality. Here’s what I wrote to a friend a few months after installing the Siggwan. Both the Siggwan and Schick were using the same Denon 103R. ”The Siggwan/103R has a smooth, detailed sound with superb dynamics and excellent tracking especially in inner grooves. Each of the 12” arms I have tried (Moerch DP-6, Schick and Siggwan) has a sense of ease about the sound, especially in inner grooves, that is lacking from the 9” and 10” arms I have tried over the last 15 years. “The Siggwan/103R replaced the Schick/103R and I can say definitively that the Siggwan is the better sounding arm. In fact I never understood all the buzz about the Schick. Once I got past the novelty and nice ergonomics of the Schick, the only thing going for it sonically is that “ease” which it has in common with the other long arms. Sonically it is rather chunky with not particularly good detail or refinement and not as good dynamics. My happiest day of owning the Schick was the day I sold it.” incidentally I have a friend who also replaced his Schick/103R with a Siggwan/103R and he had the same reactions to both arms. He uses a Garrard 401. I bought my Siggwan about a year before the designer/builder James Grant decided to stop making them. I can understand his decision since he is busy with his job (commercial airline pilot) and he has a young family, but it is a real loss to the audio world. Fortunately Siggwans do occasionally come up on the used market. That is how my friend acquired his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 Thank you, @Salectric. Very interesting comment. So, 2 great 12" arms are now no longer available! My Univector, similarly, delivers great tracking in the inner grooves. BTW, here is a pic of my Univector (the arm at the front): (I thought I had added it into my previous post ... but, somehow, the pic has disappeared! ) Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salectric Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 1 hour ago, andyr said: Thank you, @Salectric. Very interesting comment. So, 2 great 12" arms are now no longer available! My Univector, similarly, delivers great tracking in the inner grooves. BTW, here is a pic of my Univector (the arm at the front): (I thought I had added it into my previous post ... but, somehow, the pic has disappeared! ) Andy Great looking setup! I haven’t heard of the Univector before. With all this this talk about 12” arms, I should add that my main arm is actually a 9” Triplanar VII which has a Benz LP. I am embarrassed to say that I have never tried the Benz on the Siggwan nor have I have ever made a direct comparison of the Siggwan and Triplanar using the same cartridge. I really have no excuses for that. Just lazy I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD19 Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 It is a shame that James Grant put his tonearm making 'on hold' (hopefully). Here is a picture of the Siggwan successor, the Elementum. I don't think he built many of these: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 7 hours ago, Salectric said: With all this this talk about 12” arms, I should add that my main arm is actually a 9” Triplanar VII which has a Benz LP. I am embarrassed to say that I have never tried the Benz on the Siggwan nor have I have ever made a direct comparison of the Siggwan and Triplanar using the same cartridge. I really have no excuses for that. Just lazy I guess. You should ... try the LP with your Siggwan! I had a Benz LP on my Univector for about 3 years (until bloody Australia Post 'lost' it, when it came back from a retip in the UK) and the combo sounded great. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salectric Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 OK! I will try the Benz on the Siggwan. That will have to wait a couple weeks though since I will be evaluating power cords and I want to keep things constant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted July 7, 2019 Share Posted July 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Salectric said: OK! I will try the Benz on the Siggwan. That will have to wait a couple weeks though since I will be evaluating power cords and I want to keep things constant. I look forward to your comments about this combo, David. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denimhunter Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 I am using a vintage EMT 997, absolutely superb. If u manage to get 2nd hand (not the reissue) prices are reasonable. It’s that bold yet open sound of EMT. U may have to decide if u want timber arm or metal. They sound significantly different from each other. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat-with-one-t Posted July 22, 2019 Author Share Posted July 22, 2019 On 07/07/2019 at 8:51 PM, Salectric said: It’s been a few years since I sold the Schick so I looked through my emails to find some details about its sound quality. Here’s what I wrote to a friend a few months after installing the Siggwan. Both the Siggwan and Schick were using the same Denon 103R. ”The Siggwan/103R has a smooth, detailed sound with superb dynamics and excellent tracking especially in inner grooves. Each of the 12” arms I have tried (Moerch DP-6, Schick and Siggwan) has a sense of ease about the sound, especially in inner grooves, that is lacking from the 9” and 10” arms I have tried over the last 15 years. “The Siggwan/103R replaced the Schick/103R and I can say definitively that the Siggwan is the better sounding arm. In fact I never understood all the buzz about the Schick. Once I got past the novelty and nice ergonomics of the Schick, the only thing going for it sonically is that “ease” which it has in common with the other long arms. Sonically it is rather chunky with not particularly good detail or refinement and not as good dynamics. My happiest day of owning the Schick was the day I sold it.” incidentally I have a friend who also replaced his Schick/103R with a Siggwan/103R and he had the same reactions to both arms. He uses a Garrard 401. I bought my Siggwan about a year before the designer/builder James Grant decided to stop making them. I can understand his decision since he is busy with his job (commercial airline pilot) and he has a young family, but it is a real loss to the audio world. Fortunately Siggwans do occasionally come up on the used market. That is how my friend acquired his. If only I could still get one! Great review - most helpful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat-with-one-t Posted July 22, 2019 Author Share Posted July 22, 2019 On 12/07/2019 at 3:09 PM, denimhunter said: I am using a vintage EMT 997, absolutely superb. If u manage to get 2nd hand (not the reissue) prices are reasonable. It’s that bold yet open sound of EMT. U may have to decide if u want timber arm or metal. They sound significantly different from each other. Yeah I’ve noted those as an option - I’m also quite interested to hear if anyone has bought the Latvia EBay one that copies this arm’s geometry.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denimhunter Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 54 minutes ago, Mat-with-one-t said: Yeah I’ve noted those as an option - I’m also quite interested to hear if anyone has bought the Latvia EBay one that copies this arm’s geometry.... I never heard one. Butgeometry is one thing but the alloy used by EMT was quite special, not sure if tha5 can be replicated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audiome Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 (edited) Schick is a lot harder to set up compared to reed. Schick is musical and reed is audiophile. 4-5 months waiting for delivery for schick. Edited July 22, 2019 by audiome 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat-with-one-t Posted July 22, 2019 Author Share Posted July 22, 2019 Audiome - Thanks. Great looking setup too! I would tend towards the “musical” over “audiophile” usually. Highly accurate and revealing setups catch my attention immediately, and I’ll concentrate on micro-sounds - cymbal crash, guitar string buzz, that little riff I’d never noticed before - but I find that novelty wears off pretty fast. What is it about the Schick that makes it difficult to set up? I am aware the mount point needs to be perfect, but after that? I’m looking at used units, as new is out of price range for now..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salectric Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 The only setup issue I had with the Schick was the positioning of the counterweight. The arm is heavy so the counterweight is also heavy, and minuscule movement of the CW caused major changes in tracking force. It was difficult to dial in an exact VTF. In contrast my Triplanar has a small outrigger weight extending from the rear of the main counterweight that lets me make tiny changes in VTF to get just the right value. I wish Schick had something similar. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 6 minutes ago, Salectric said: The only setup issue I had with the Schick was the positioning of the counterweight. The arm is heavy so the counterweight is also heavy, and minuscule movement of the CW caused major changes in tracking force. It was difficult to dial in an exact VTF. In contrast my Triplanar has a small outrigger weight extending from the rear of the main counterweight that lets me make tiny changes in VTF to get just the right value. I wish Schick had something similar. Yeah, my 'Univector' (which SNA's "lovetube" made) has such an outrigger weight and turning it makes tiny changes in VTF very easy to achieve. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat-with-one-t Posted July 25, 2019 Author Share Posted July 25, 2019 Hmmmm. Looks like I've narrowed down my 12" arm choices to "unaffordable" or "unavailable"....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audiome Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 (edited) On 23/07/2019 at 6:57 AM, Mat-with-one-t said: Audiome - Thanks. Great looking setup too! I would tend towards the “musical” over “audiophile” usually. Highly accurate and revealing setups catch my attention immediately, and I’ll concentrate on micro-sounds - cymbal crash, guitar string buzz, that little riff I’d never noticed before - but I find that novelty wears off pretty fast. What is it about the Schick that makes it difficult to set up? I am aware the mount point needs to be perfect, but after that? I’m looking at used units, as new is out of price range for now..... What salectric said is right. You also need allan key to adjust vta, azimuth, weight force. It is kind of painful for me as my reed is so easy. I dont believe you can find a used 12" schick easily. I tried lol Edited July 26, 2019 by audiome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doppelganger Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 Another that looks interesting is the Groovemaster. I haven't heard it so can't comment further: https://audio-creativeshop.nl/product/groovemaster-ii-tonearm/ Art Dudley seemed impressed: https://www.stereophile.com/content/listening-182-audio-creative-groovemaster-ii-tonearm 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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