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I’m interested if anybody has had experience with this or similar products for sound optimisation.

Reading the blurb they can diagnose and filter (fix?) most room acoustic issues such as bass traps etc.

They’re costly, but prom a lot from being able to replace your dac and even preamp.

Any experiences or thoughts welcome.

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I am not a DEQX owner - but I do run a miniDSP 10x10HD.  Which gives me 8x analogue channels out - for:

  • subs
  • woofers
  • mids, and
  • tweeters.

And, of course, DSP for room correction - as well as the active filters for my mains.

 

AIUI, the difference between the right DEQX (for your needs) and my miniDSP 10x10 is that the DEQX does some things automatically - which I have to do manually, with REW and a PC.

 

IOW - it's a great product.  :thumb:

 

Andy

 

 

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I don’t have one but seen them in action.

Depending on your setup and room they can either be brilliant or just good.

But there is quite a steep learning curve particularly if your going active with multiple amps.

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I've never used a DEQX but have read about them over the years, including users who think they're excellent.

 

They are very sophisticated and to get the best from a DEQX you need to measure your speakers separately first, then the whole system.

 

Before going down this road you should read as much as you can about the subject of Digital Signal Processing (DSP), EQ and room treatment. The main object of all of this is to correct for the interference of the room on the sound coming out of your speakers.

 

Positioning of speakers and chair, then room treatment (Bass traps etc.) are the first choice if your domestic situation allows: i.e. you have a dedicated listening room where you can do what you like. You can then complete the task with DSP or EQ.

 

If you can't do positioning or room treatment for whatever reason, then DSP/EQ is your saviour.

 

DSP/EQ is the job of DEQX, MiniDSP, and other gear. It can also be done by software if you use a computer based audio.

 

The question of a pre-amp or DAC is just a practical add on for these products. You don't have to buy them installed I don't think.

 

In my situation I listen to CDs only and have a separate CD Transport and DAC. I use a Behringer DEQ2496 sitting between these two and only working in digital. The Behringer has an ADC and DAC but I don't use them. If however I played vinyl I would need to convert from and then back to analogue with the ADC and DAC.

 

I'd think long and hard before spending a lot of money on the DEQX. There are cheaper products (like the MiniDSP) that seem to do most of what you may need. They can all make a substantial difference but if you don't know what you are doing it's easy to mess things up. They are no an easy solution.

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13 hours ago, The Drake said:

I’m interested if anybody has had experience with this or similar products for sound optimisation.

Reading the blurb they can diagnose and filter (fix?) most room acoustic issues such as bass traps etc.

They’re costly, but prom a lot from being able to replace your dac and even preamp.

Any experiences or thoughts welcome.

What problems are you trying to solve? 

 

There are things that can be done prior to room correction. Understanding the room, positioning speakers, measuring the room, room treatment are things that can be done for free or relatively low cost.  Room correction itself cannot solve all the problems of the room, should be used in conjunction.

 

Room correction software and hardware can be low cost to thousands of dollars, and effort can be easy, do it yourself to highly complex setup.  While the article below is more for home theatre, it will give you an idea of the options.

https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/241968-good-summary-room-correction-software/?tab=comments#comment-3856038

@almikel  can give a DEQX owner's perspective...

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Guest Peter the Greek

Have we got a thread comparing the major offerings for DSP, pro's/con's, suitability etc? Could be a good article for someone in the know.

 

What do we have?

- DEQX

- Mini DSP

- Xilica

Behringer

- QSC

- Other computer based options?

 

 

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Thanks so much for the great feedback.
My situation is:
I don’t have a dedicated Hi-Fi room, so must live with some arrangement compromise;
I am running Magneplanar 20.7, and just ordered 2xREL subs after playing with a single sub for a week.
I had the sub come in so it was very subtle, just providing me that low rumble I was missing on things like some bass guitar, cello etc.
I created a play list on the Aurender N10 covering a wide range of music, from vocals (Amos Lee) to piano (Yamamoto tsuyoshi) instrumental (Oregon, Crossing) to some bass heavy pop (Bliss).
The sub definitely bought some things to life, but as will surprise no one, the trick was getting enough from the sub on subtle strings, without it being a bit messy on the base heavy pop stuff.
I played with sub positions a little (but limited by my room), sub aiming direction, listening position (only minor adjustments available to me) etc etc.
I guess I was thinking that I could adopt some optimisation technology to fine tune.
The RELs should arrive next week so I have a bit of ‘playing’ ahead of me.
Cheers

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Guest DarkNark

DSPeaker Antimode may be a cheaper option? (Not that you asked for options ?) Help you integrate the 2 subs and sort out the bottom end, which it appears is all you are after.

 

 

Edited by DarkNark
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4 hours ago, Peter the Greek said:

Have we got a thread comparing the major offerings for DSP, pro's/con's, suitability etc? Could be a good article for someone in the know.

 

What do we have?

- DEQX

- Mini DSP

- Xilica

Behringer

- QSC

- Other computer based options?

 

 

I think you can add a Velodyne SMS-1 to that list for sub duties.

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3 hours ago, Peter the Greek said:

Have we got a thread comparing the major offerings for DSP, pro's/con's, suitability etc? Could be a good article for someone in the know.

It will need the cooperation of many people, because there is no one who knows all the packages.  I know some of them and if there is enough interest and support from others who know other packages, I may be tempted to start and maintain the thread.  However, just agreeing on the list  will be a task itself.

-------------------

@The Drake,  fully understand the challenges in a non-dedicated room where WAF requirements dictate what can be done, where things can be put etc.. (mine is in open plan family room).  There are many options available for room correction.  Which option depends on your budget and how much you are willing to invest in time and effort.  

 

DEQX is one of the most powerful but complex room correction solutions, and not cheap as you know.  DSPeaker Antimode is known as an easy to use solution, and the X4 can also be used as a DAC and preamp.  Another hardware/software combination is the miniDSP with Dirac Live.  Trinnov is yet another expensive hardware/software solution.

You can also go the software route which requires more hands-on and adding your own DSP hardware (e.g. miniDSP, Behringer).  REW, Dirac Live, Acourate are among many software packages available.  Some require detailed knowledge and configuration.  If you are running Roon, you can add DSP  into the music chain. The software route is a cheaper way but requires more effort.
 

Also, you can ask for help on how to integrate the subs to the Maggies; there are people who have done the sub integration without room correction.

 

Last but not least, you can pay for professional services e.g from @Red Spade Audio and get Paul Spencer to do this for you.

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2 hours ago, The Drake said:

Thanks so much for the great feedback.
My situation is:
I don’t have a dedicated Hi-Fi room, so must live with some arrangement compromise;
I am running Magneplanar 20.7, and just ordered 2xREL subs after playing with a single sub for a week.
I had the sub come in so it was very subtle, just providing me that low rumble I was missing on things like some bass guitar, cello etc.
I created a play list on the Aurender N10 covering a wide range of music, from vocals (Amos Lee) to piano (Yamamoto tsuyoshi) instrumental (Oregon, Crossing) to some bass heavy pop (Bliss).
The sub definitely bought some things to life, but as will surprise no one, the trick was getting enough from the sub on subtle strings, without it being a bit messy on the base heavy pop stuff.
I played with sub positions a little (but limited by my room), sub aiming direction, listening position (only minor adjustments available to me) etc etc.
I guess I was thinking that I could adopt some optimisation technology to fine tune.
The RELs should arrive next week so I have a bit of ‘playing’ ahead of me.
Cheers
 

 

I would give Bill Mclean a call @ Mclean hifi.  He sells Maganeplaner and Deqx.  He sells both as a system many times and knows his stuff.

 

http://www.mcleans.info/home-entertainment/home.do;jsessionid=5A06FBD0B89ED86685062E18441EDF05

 

 

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Reviewing all the EQ systems is a little like reviewing a group of 10 different brand hammers from the hardware shop.

 

They all do the same thing, some have unique features/quirks .....  but the overriding factor as to the result you get, is how you swing the hammer (and what you swing it at).

 

 

The difference with a DEQX, Antimodes, and Direc Live is that they are to some degree semi-automated.

 

They cannot do a complete job of solving "room" issues .... but apply EQ with these type of devices is usually better than not.

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23 hours ago, Peter the Greek said:

Have we got a thread comparing the major offerings for DSP, pro's/con's, suitability etc? Could be a good article for someone in the know.

 

What do we have?

- DEQX

- Mini DSP

- Xilica

Behringer

- QSC

- Other computer based options?

 

 

Great idea. This would be awesome. 

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@The Drake I’ve just been through exactly your situation. I’m picking up DEQX today, which I’ll compare against my mini DSP over the coming weeks.

 

I also have two REL subs to integrate. 

 

I have a difficult, non dedicated room: walls of glass and polished concrete floors.

 

For treatment, I bought a large rug, a couple vicoustic bass traps and some vicoustic wavewood which I’m about to install.

 

I integrated the subs using REW to measure the rook and a program called MSO (multi sub optimiser) and the wise council of @Snoopy8. He is an IT professional and yesterday warned me of the complexity of setting up DEQX, right after I bought it. I find REW and MSO pretty time consuming and I’m alright with computers. 

 

You can pay to have DEQX professionally installed, however if you change your room or equipment you’ll need to do it again.

 

I also already have DAC and preamp I like so I’d prefer something that just did the room correction. If it sounds great then I suppose I can sell the DAC and preamp. 

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I have 20.7s, 2 subs and a DEQX and have had for many years now.

 

The DEQX has function other than plain old EQ.  One important feature is "speaker correction" which is a form of DSP/EQ to correct for timing and amplitude anomalies in the speakers (and subs) themselves.  This is completely independent of the room and is/can be applied as a filter irrespective of the room that the speakers are in.  It does not have to be re-done.  If one can find and use a better anechoic space for "speaker" measurement then you might consider doing it again.

 

The cross-over and filter slopes etc. function for active multi-amp systems is not applicable for 20.7 owners.  20.7s have some sort of fancy/weird inbuilt passive XO that has had its access denied (except with an axe, if one is game).

 

With the DEQX you can choose to hi-pass/low-pass to subs wherever you like and choose whatever filters and slopes that take your fancy.  Delaying mains or subs, adjusting amplitudes etc etc;  there is a multitude of tinkerings available and can keep one occupied for years.

 

Then we have the room and the way that the speakers are positioned and react with the room.  DEQX (or any other device) cannot influence cancellations that give the bass freq response its mountain range look.  Troughs are like black holes; pouring more EQ energy into a trough makes no difference at all.  Bass EQ via a DEQX is not automatic; one needs to make their own decisions, apply EQ and see what the result is.  Repeat as required.

 

Almost all of my bass response manipulation was done by positioning.  This is fundamentally important.  One can achieve excellent response by carefully placing the subs, then cut the tops off a peak or 2.  It all takes time, some knowledge of acoustics and a dollop of intuition/luck.

 

Rather than randomly try various positionings, I made an Excel spreadsheet that calculated all the path differences from direct sound path length versus first reflection path length from all the room boundaries then converted those distances into wavelengths/frequencies and whether they were in/out of phase.  Different to all of those "modal" calculators that assume that there is only 1 reflection, that it happens to create a standing wave and that one is sitting in its peak or trough.

 

I did find that http://www.hunecke.de/en/calculators/loudspeakers.html

was quite insightful even if only a very very approximate representation.  At least it suggested to me that I might be better off with one sub at the back of the room.  I tried it; it measured well enough for me, so I left it at that and added a bit of EQ to tidy up.

 

Since then I have added a warehouse full of semi-rigid and rigid fibreglass to kill reflections coming from the back wall (behind the chair) and put some diffusion panels on the front wall to spread the back-wave of the Maggies somewhat.

 

[Don't forget that Maggies need some sort of triangular buttress support.  Those tiny T-feet really are hopeless.]

 

Sorry, got a bit off the track there, but hope it helps someone.

 

Finally, back at the DEQX.  It is not as automatic as a lot of people think.  Sure the software generates the filters but only after a knowledgeable person traverses the step-by-step procedure, feeding it knowledge-based measurements, numbers and decisions.  There is no "push this button and everything will be alright".  Not even close.

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6 minutes ago, aechmea said:

It is not as automatic as a lot of people think

.... but much more than other solutions mentioned.

 

Although, going by the opening post, I'm only talking about it from a "room correction" perspective......  and not using it for crossovers in an active-speaker system.

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I’m sure @Mickstuh won’t mind me saying that listening to the DEQX correction I heard at his place just now I found the first five tracks to be harsh and unlistenable. The for the last song, though, it made a massive improvement (crystal clear), so I’m sure it can work. He liked the correction for all of the songs so it is also highly subjective. 

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19 minutes ago, Mike13 said:

He liked the correction

That's really the run with all these products.   They're just tools.   Quite transparent if you have no correction enabled (eg. just using the DEQX as a DAC, or passthrough) .... but if you twiddle the knobs they can deliver quite big results (but not necessarily good). 

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Yes the DEQX is an extraordinary instrument. And yes @Mike13I found that the reaction of different people to hearing music at my place with/without the DEQX to vary wildly. Really wildly. To the extent that one friend in particular never wanted to hear it, while another could not believe that I was selling the unit, he thought the improvement was so great. Sometimes I preferred it in, sometimes not.  With some music, by clearing up the reflections in the room and of course time alignment of the speakers, it made the soundstage so much bigger and better, with better delineation of all the instruments. It was not the lifting of the veil but more lifting a blanket off the music. Other times the soundstage got bigger, but by no means better. And sometimes it could sound harsh.

Of course, thats not to say the DEQX sounds harsh - only my implementation on my room on some music to my ears. It's a question of what you get it to do. A tool, as said above.

And it is one of those things where the more time you put into it the more you can get out of it. It's capacity for tweaking the sound is endless. It is definitely demanding. To make it really work you have to put time in. 

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