Javs' Theatre - Initial Thoughts and Ideas

[Guest Peter the Greek]

28 minutes ago, Javs said:

Whats mlv board?

Mass loaded vinyl
 

Quote

Did you see the images I posted. There are articles on soundproofing company website if you want to read up on how the clip and channel system works in relation to greenglue.

 

I'm somewhat familiar with how it works (sorry some of the earlier posts confused me, I thought you were using Acoustiblok)

[Javs]

I'm somewhat familiar with how it works (sorry some of the earlier posts confused me, I thought you were using Acoustiblok)

Nah I was actually pretty against using acoustiblok (MLV) and using the images to try and help Al understand why greenglue is better  

Definitely not using any MLV.

 

Clip and channel. Double drywall + greenglue.

 

Proven method.

 

I'll definitely stay mindful of how the baffle wall will need to be insulated in the voids. Kinda seems like an ideal spot for ~2ft bass traps though.

 

The other ideal spot would be building a small riser in the back half of the room and have that filled with pink fluffy and some vents on the boundary walls leading into it.

 

Room Sims tell me I'm going to have decent room mode right at 30hz which extends harmonics right through the frequency range (60,90,120 etc...), can probably tune the riser for that frequency.

 

 

[Guest Peter the Greek]

4 minutes ago, Javs said:

The other ideal spot would be building a small riser in the back half of the room and have that filled with pink fluffy and some vents on the boundary walls leading into it.

Yep.

 

There is no reason not fill out your baffle, put a hard face on it, except say 100mm gap around the wall/floor/ceiling joins and line it with 50mm of 48kg (that'll work in a similar fashion to a riser trap). jam them in wherever you can imo

 

Clips and channel are definitely the way to go. Double wall is a bastard (specifically, suspending the ceiling joints)

Edited May 8, 2019 by Peter the Greek

[Javs]

Yep.
 
There is no reason not fill out your baffle, put a hard face on it, except say 100mm gap around the wall/floor/ceiling joins and line it with 50mm of 48kg (that'll work in a similar fashion to a riser trap). jam them in wherever you can imo
 
Clips and channel are definitely the way to go. Double wall is a bastard (specifically, suspending the ceiling joints)

Yeah i just don't have space for a double wall. I wish I did though. But looks like I'm entering the realm of diminishing returns there anyway.

[Zinzan]

On 06/05/2019 at 6:57 PM, Javs said:

Thanks man!

 

I am not quite there with a full on tender with McDonald Jones just yet, I have a preliminary one from them, they know about the room because we sat down and tried to troubleshoot how to do it with the floorplan. But only got as far as physically fitting the size that works for me in the space.

 

I have spoken with Hotondo a few times previously (all of them actually), but the Como 390 is probably the closest plan I would build, but that front living room is not really condusive to what I wanna do, (I would flip the study and living so the theatre is not the front room for one) but I would need to both widen and extend the house, which is not really easy on my plot as mine is only 15m and extensions sideways past that and the plan I chose wont really work due to building height.  Also they come out a fair bit more expensive than MDJ for square size. We looked at the Saxonville at homeworld and we really loved all the MDJ houses we looked at, we took a drive up to Newcastle too and looked there. Essentially we thought the Saxonville was perfect. Was really well done. Almost went with Tullipan but they are $$$.

 

I guess I will have to put it to them that I would like it done at build. Or put something in the contract to say that I can have people come and do that part... The guy I am dealing with is really knowledgeable, and seems to be more of a 'yes' man than most of the people we have chatted with, and he was pretty no BS. He did say they can do soundproofing etc but I dont think he understood just how much I want to do, but I think that's a conversation for a bit later when we go down the path of actually paying a design fee to include the modifications we have done internally, because there is a lot of them. Almost the entire upstairs is different, we have half the floor for our Master essentially.

 

Laura at Hotondo is awesome though when I have spoken with her a few times, shes super helpful.

 

What area are you building in? I will be in the new Glades development in Glenning Valley. We live in a rental right now in Berkeley Vale.

 

I hear you regarding ripping drywall out, that's definitely a last resort I guess. Your idea on the incoming and return being lined up for a bulk head is just about exactly what I would like to do.

 

Curious, where you planning on sourcing your clips and channel etc from? I would definitely like to keep in touch with those details. Seems the Rotul Australian equivalents to the Soundproofing company products are a little different. All different sizing. I am basing my STC ratings and such from the US company, so I hope I can find an option here with availability (furring channels etc) which performs as good.

Building in Kincumber

 

channel will be sourced by the builder. There’s a certain size Rondo furring channel which is appropriate for this application.  Volume builders  do not understand this approach to soundproofing.  They might suggest soundchek walls and insulation, this is only part of the equation. Ask them about return air path ... “oh you leave a gap under the door” - there goes 80% of your investment in the sound proofing. 

 

clips, green glue and other materials from Wavetrain Cinemas. 

 

Yes we very much enjoyed working with Laura at Hotondo.  They are a bit pricier than some others (Eden Brae etc) but the experience we’ve had has been great and they’ve got the floor plan we want.  And as above, they were keen to learn and happy to take on the special construction technique for the room.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Zinzan

[Guest Peter the Greek]

11 hours ago, Zinzan said:

clips, green glue and other materials from Wavetrain Cinemas. 

 

Oh now this is funny. I can probably find 20+ threads on various forums where David has slammed Green Glue relative to "Quiet Glue" (which he sold at the time) and he now sells the former! Ha! Hilarious (good price too) - these guys are another option

 

Acoustica sell the floor underlay you'll want 

 

We used Tullipan about 10 years ago - back then they were excellent (Edit: no cutting corners - that house is rock solid and when we sold it 7 years later it looked like new (gardens aside) - and you're dealing with a family, each brother takes control of a part of the build)

Edited May 8, 2019 by Peter the Greek

[Zinzan]

6 hours ago, Peter the Greek said:

Oh now this is funny. I can probably find 20+ threads on various forums where David has slammed Green Glue relative to "Quiet Glue" (which he sold at the time) and he now sells the former! Ha! Hilarious (good price too) - these guys are another option

 

Acoustica sell the floor underlay you'll want 

 

We used Tullipan about 10 years ago - back then they were excellent (Edit: no cutting corners - that house is rock solid and when we sold it 7 years later it looked like new (gardens aside) - and you're dealing with a family, each brother takes control of a part of the build)

Haha I knew someone was going to bring up the green glue vs quiet glue history.  Would make for some good reading but think a fair bit got lost in the conversion from DTV.  David has got his reasons for having changed.  

 

Our last house was Tullipan and also found it to be of excellent quality, good family run business.  I thought about talking to them for our new build but equally knew they’d be pricier again. 

[Guest Peter the Greek]

41 minutes ago, Zinzan said:

 green glue vs quiet glue history.  

LOL. He had it out on SNA with Ted White. I can't find the thread - it got pretty hostile. Talk about backflip....well better late than never

[betty boop]

38 minutes ago, Peter the Greek said:

LOL. He had it out on SNA with Ted White. I can't find the thread - it got pretty hostile. Talk about backflip....well better late than never

its all still there can just search for ted white content  anyways no point digging up old baggage. but if looking its all still there  

[Red Spade Audio]

On 08/05/2019 at 10:09 AM, Javs said:

The depth of the void is about 55cm. I don't see in your post where they put a limit on that?

Also. There is a hard wall behind it, if there is nothing there, it's going to reflect, if there is something there and it goes through 1ft or so then reflects, I don't get the issue here? This is similar to superchunk bass traps in the corners, the depth is relatively similar ?

By having something there I end up with absorbtion in some way rather than none at all.

Intuition tells us that if a thick absorber is better and density helps, then we want more of both. But it's slightly more complex. For any given absorber, there is a point where it becomes thicker than optimal and this effect varies with frequency. You can end up with an absorber that might perform poorly in either bass, low midrange or even both, in comparison to one with less material and a smarter design. The worst case scenario (aside from doing nothing at all), is a very high density absorber filling the entire area.

 

There isn't an easy to define limit here because there are several variables.

 

If there is no front reflective baffle, it's not a baffle wall but rather a very large absorber. Both are very desirable.

[Javs]

Those of you who have done clip and channel rooms.... Do you remember the specs on the furring channels used? Namely the channel height.

 

I found these 237 clips from Rondo, which are identical to IB1 clips from overseas.  Only $0.90c each. They perform very nearly as good as Whisper clips all said and done, and they are about 8x cheaper per clip... Deep in the documentation from Rondo they say these can be used for clip and channel in walls for acoustic purposes, and studying the images, they appear to be totally identical to the overseas version of the IB1.

 

IB-1 Testing vs Whisper Clips and others.

 

 

Thats without Green Glue mind you, this is with Green Glue:

 

 

Now this clip can use either the Rondo 308 or 129 furring channel. The 308 is only 16mm high, and the 129 is 26mm high.

 

In the US, they tell you to use 22mm high furring channel, which is 25 guage. Also, does anybody know what gauge these furring channels are?

 

For space concerns, I wouldn mind using the 16mm channel, but if its quite a bit less effective than the 26mm (129) then obviously I would use that.

 

Thoughts?

 

The clip

 

The US 237 Clip which is actually the reccomended by the AVS guys and Soundproofingcompany.com for the fact that its performance/cost ratio is excellent.

 

 

The AU Furring specs.

 

 

https://www.networkbuilding.com.au/product_direct-fixing-clips_237-clip-anchor-furring-channel-direct-fix-to-concrete_1171.html

 

https://www.networkbuilding.com.au/product_furring-channel-and-battens_308-furring-channel-16mm-6000mm_1147.html

 

https://www.networkbuilding.com.au/product_furring-channel-and-battens_129-furring-channel-28mm-3600mm_1136.html

 

The STWC Clip is 8x the price as the 237... And identical to the RSIC Clip in the above testing plots. Not worth 8x the price...

 

https://www.networkbuilding.com.au/product_sound-isolation-products_stwc-wall-and-ceiling-sound-isolation-assy-for-fc-screw-fix_4631.html

[Guest Peter the Greek]

If memory serves me correctly, the thicker (taller) channel has a higher weight carrying capacity? Its been ages since I've used that, but I'm pretty sure I've only used the larger stuff

[br0d0]

On 03/05/2019 at 11:48 AM, Javs said:

My only other concern which the builders probably wont get is I need to build a pretty hectic AC In / Out system and deadvent thing, that needs to be completely soundproof too.

 

https://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing_101/the-dead-vent

That dead-vent design has always confused me. Is a dead-vent required when you have the AC supply/return leading directly to/from the AC system? I imagine that if I build a theatre with 2 supply ducts coming from the AC system (in its own zone) to the front of the room and 2 return ducts leading back to the AC system in the back of the room, that I don't require dead-vents. Is that correct?

 

Edit: Thinking about it, I suppose if the AC is not on you'd need at least 2 vents (one out, one in) to exchange air regardless, as it'll be so air tight? 

 

Aren't they only required when the supply/return is in an adjacent room and the air needs to be exchanged with that room through the vents? I suppose the dead-vent method would be more sound proof as the sound is less likely to get into the AC ducts to the rest of the house? Would love to know a bit more about your plan here.

Edited August 7, 2019 by br0d0

[br0d0]

Regarding AV racks this is the one I'm thinking of getting: https://www.snapav.com/shop/en/snapav/strong-trade%3B-fs-series-rack-system-with-dc-fans-sr-fs-system-dc

It only has 18.25" usable depth so won't fit the XPA-7 by the looks. That's a beast!

 

Wanted a Middle Atlantic RCS but they are more expensive and harder to get it seems.

Edit: they do have a usable depth of 20.1" apparently but will cost ~$3.5K here: https://www.middleatlantic.com/products/racks-enclosures/stand-alone-floor-standing-enclosures/essex-rcs-series-pre-configured-rack-system/ircs-4224.aspx

 

Edited August 7, 2019 by br0d0

[Javs]

That dead-vent design has always confused me. Is a dead-vent required when you have the AC supply/return leading directly to/from the AC system? I imagine that if I build a theatre with 2 supply ducts coming from the AC system (in its own zone) to the front of the room and 2 return ducts leading back to the AC system in the back of the room, that I don't require dead-vents. Is that correct?
 
Edit: Thinking about it, I suppose if the AC is not on you'd need at least 2 vents (one out, one in) to exchange air regardless, as it'll be so air tight? 
 
Aren't they only required when the supply/return is in an adjacent room and the air needs to be exchanged with that room through the vents? I suppose the dead-vent method would be more sound proof as the sound is less likely to get into the AC ducts to the rest of the house? Would love to know a bit more about your plan here.

The dead vent helps stop sound traveling back through the AC system and exiting into every other room in the house.

I will need to do something to address that.

[Javs]

Regarding AV racks this is the one I'm thinking of getting: https://www.snapav.com/shop/en/snapav/strong-trade%3B-fs-series-rack-system-with-dc-fans-sr-fs-system-dc
It only has 18.25" usable depth so won't fit the XPA-7 by the looks. That's a beast!
 
Wanted a Middle Atlantic RCS but they are more expensive and harder to get it seems.
Edit: they do have a usable depth of 20.1" apparently but will cost ~$3.5K here: https://www.middleatlantic.com/products/racks-enclosures/stand-alone-floor-standing-enclosures/essex-rcs-series-pre-configured-rack-system/ircs-4224.aspx
 

This one looks good for me.

https://www.4cabling.com.au/42ru-600mm-wide-x-800mm-deep-server-rack.html

[Guest Peter the Greek]

18 hours ago, br0d0 said:

That dead-vent design has always confused me. Is a dead-vent required when you have the AC supply/return leading directly to/from the AC system? I imagine that if I build a theatre with 2 supply ducts coming from the AC system (in its own zone) to the front of the room and 2 return ducts leading back to the AC system in the back of the room, that I don't require dead-vents. Is that correct?

 

Edit: Thinking about it, I suppose if the AC is not on you'd need at least 2 vents (one out, one in) to exchange air regardless, as it'll be so air tight? 

 

Aren't they only required when the supply/return is in an adjacent room and the air needs to be exchanged with that room through the vents? I suppose the dead-vent method would be more sound proof as the sound is less likely to get into the AC ducts to the rest of the house? Would love to know a bit more about your plan here.

In my opinion, using an energy recover ventilator 24/7 is the gold standard. That will have its own supplies and return. I put the return in the hush box/wherever the projector vent is so that has its own dedicated exhaust. Airchange make a good one

 

Regarding dead vents....again, gold standard is to have every vent (supplies and returns) with one. However, you can just run larger, longer flex duct and run it through soffits and that is pretty much just as good. Basically turn the soffit into the dead vent of sorts. 2 lays of GG etc etc

 

I didn't have the room for that in my last room, so I made custom ducts that straddled the isolated ceiling joists. They were ply, then GG, then gyprock, then bitkote, then 25mm HD polyester, then 3mil plastic, then 25mm HD polyester. You couldn't hear the fan/machine noise with your head in the duct, let alone at the seating position.....sort of unnecessary.

 

 

 

 

[Javs]

Ok so the volume builder just got back to me. It's now certain they can't do any of the soundproofing I want during the house construction, I'm going to have to have them drywall the room with one layer and handover the house like that, and then I will need to rip it down and start over.

Hmm, that's not really a big deal when I sit there and think about it, surely a couple grand wasted there, but reading some of the theatres on this forum I can see that to really do it right I kinda need total oversight. Which I suppose is saving me from potential headache by them doing it wrong in the first place.

Also they are not keen on the AC return since the theatre is downstairs and the house return is upstairs, so will probably have to sort something else there too, perhaps I can draw in fresh air from adjoining room, the study, or the hallway for eg.

First and foremost this is our first house, so priority one is actually getting the house built in the first place, so I gotta work with what I've got. I don't really have another 200 grand to go with a custom house builder to get the same sized house.

All good, moving on!

[Guest Peter the Greek]

1 hour ago, Javs said:

 I'm going to have to have them drywall the room with one layer and handover the house like that,

Builders can be such dicks at times......I recall something similar. I had to fight tooth and nail to get two layers of gyprock for our master bedroom...

 

Presumably they wont leave that room entirely bare? PITA ripping it down

 

[Javs]

Builders can be such dicks at times......I recall something similar. I had to fight tooth and nail to get two layers of gyprock for our master bedroom...
 
Presumably they wont leave that room entirely bare? PITA ripping it down
 

Yeah they have to drywall it. Though I'm going to try and make sure they don't mud and tape it. If I can see the screw holes it should be a bit easier

[Guest Peter the Greek]

4 minutes ago, Javs said:

11 minutes ago, Peter the Greek said:

Builders can be such dicks at times......I recall something similar. I had to fight tooth and nail to get two layers of gyprock for our master bedroom...
 
Presumably they wont leave that room entirely bare? PITA ripping it down
 

Yeah they have to drywall it. Though I'm going to try and make sure they don't mud and tape it. If I can see the screw holes it should be a bit easier

Don't worry about that, its really easy to take it out. Just messy. 

[mik_m]

10 hours ago, Javs said:

Ok so the volume builder just got back to me. It's now certain they can't do any of the soundproofing I want during the house construction, I'm going to have to have them drywall the room with one layer and handover the house like that, and then I will need to rip it down and start over.

Hmm, that's not really a big deal when I sit there and think about it, surely a couple grand wasted there, but reading some of the theatres on this forum I can see that to really do it right I kinda need total oversight. Which I suppose is saving me from potential headache by them doing it wrong in the first place.

Also they are not keen on the AC return since the theatre is downstairs and the house return is upstairs, so will probably have to sort something else there too, perhaps I can draw in fresh air from adjoining room, the study, or the hallway for eg.

First and foremost this is our first house, so priority one is actually getting the house built in the first place, so I gotta work with what I've got. I don't really have another 200 grand to go with a custom house builder to get the same sized house.

All good, moving on!

Hi Javs

 

I don't know if its an option but have you considered a mini-split for the A/C? I'm still researching my HT design and at the moment I'm thinking that could be an option (I was going to post to the forums for people's thoughts ). The unit I'm looking at is the Daikin US7 because its one of the few that I've found that can draw fresh air in from outside rather than just circulate a closed system. And, both the 2.5kW and 3.5kW units only run at 19dB in quiet mode. Just a thought...

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Javs]

Hi Javs
 
I don't know if its an option but have you considered a mini-split for the A/C? I'm still researching my HT design and at the moment I'm thinking that could be an option (I was going to post to the forums for people's thoughts [emoji2]). The unit I'm looking at is the Daikin US7 because its one of the few that I've found that can draw fresh air in from outside rather than just circulate a closed system. And, both the 2.5kW and 3.5kW units only run at 19dB in quiet mode. Just a thought...
 
Cheers, Mike.

Hey Mike.

Not really keen on a minisplit hey, the AC we are installing into the house is pretty hectic, really don't want to double dip on that.

There is no problem getting a supply there, I will just have to figure out the return, or a way to get old air out, the AC will always be on when we are in there. I'll have a think about it.

[Guest Peter the Greek]

Unless you leave the door open, you really want something 24/7 exchanging air. These are sealed boxes after all.....think a fridge that has been left turned off for a while with the door closed 

[Javs]

Unless you leave the door open, you really want something 24/7 exchanging air. These are sealed boxes after all.....think a fridge that has been left turned off for a while with the door closed 

I'm not sure if you genuinely mean 24/7, but if so that's a waste of power. I would only need something operating when it's in use. Door will probably be open when not in use. I don't like closing up my whole house unless I'm in the room and want privacy.

It could be as simple as a vent fan set up to a relay linked to the AC gear, not sure yet. 4-5 air exchanges per hour is heaps.

The exhaust vent would not be sealed either really. Sound isolated, yes, but air will be able to move through it, if it were truly sealed it wouldn't function.