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Improve midrange vocals


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Hi - I would like to improve the midrange and vocals, make them a bit weightier.

 

Replacing the amp and speakers are out of the question.

 

is there anything that can be done with interconnects ?.

 

My Amp is a musical fidelity m6i, speakers are DALI Rubicon 8's , source is Bluesound Node 2i connected to AMP via RCA Atlas Equator cables.

 

Any recommendation of brand / type of cable will be much appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

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Guest Muon N'
6 minutes ago, rocky500 said:

I would try and get hold of a R2R ladder dac if you can.

Definitely gave me more body to the vocals and midrange to my music.

Something like a TDA1541 based dac with a tube buffer or output stage :thumb:

 

Edit: maybe PCM1704.

Edited by Muon N'
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Trying to voice a system that much with cables is the wrong approach and can only lead to expensive frustration and disappointment. Unfortunately you're going to have to look at the electronics (or speakers) as suggested by others.

Edited by Ittaku
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Agree, it’s a tough thing to voice a system through cables. Minor adjustments to suit individual preference - sure. Changing timbre and sonic signature - unlikely. 

 

Might sound crazy, but you could try adding a sub. Amazing what a good sub can do for the entire spectrum not just bottom end. Other options 

 

1. Get an external dac to sit between node and amp. Although the dac in the node is actually pretty good 

 

2. Get a minidsp or something and adjust eq to preference. 

 

3. Speaker positioning - free and highly effective. I would start here. 

 

4. Setup a roon server - I have no idea why but I always found that roon had fleshier/more weighty vocals then bluos. 

 

Im not familiar with the speakers but the rest of the gear is OK, so I would encourage you to start with speaker positioning and room treatment. 

 

What source material are you using?

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Seems more like a speaker problem to me.

 

Cables can and do help improve a given system,but they should not be used as tone controls and cannot change the fundamentals of speaker reproduction, if there is a perceived /subjective deficiency in the system.

 

It certainly isn't your amplifier that is the problem. However ,for a cable recommendation I highly recommend Aurealis Litz speaker and IC cables. They are the best cables I have ever used and Geoff will allow you a 100%  obligation free trial in your own system.

https://www.aurealisaudio.com.au/

Edited by rantan
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2 hours ago, Ozflyer said:

Bluesound Node 2i connected to AMP via RCA Atlas Equator cables.

while this is a good streamer and source... I dont personally think built in dac/analog stage is upto quality of amp and speakers. would consider a good dac to partner ... something good  in the midrange.... I run some pretty old dacs so won't comment to suitable alternatives....

 

6 minutes ago, rantan said:

It certainly isn't your amplifier that is the problem. However ,for a cable recommendation I highly recommend Auralis Litz speaker and IC cables. They are the best cables I have ever used and Geoff will allow you a no obligation free trial in your own system with zero pressure.

yes certainly not amplifier... if anything mf is very strong in the mid range rendering vocals beautifully....

 

6 minutes ago, rantan said:

Seems more like a speaker problem to me.

could be the case... not enough experience with them to comment...but if a speaker deficiency its going to take a bit to overcome elsewhere in the chain! to point changing speakers will be just as easy... more midrange focussed speakers that mate well with mf are b&W, focal, pmc, monitor audio to name a few am familiar with :)

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I tend to agree with Betty above. If you’re discounting speakers then look at quality of your source - it’s not really up to the other elements. Can you borrow a few different Dacs to try?

Also, are you streaming your own files from a computer - what type of file?

Or a service like Tidal - what quality?

 

The other consideration, as mentioned above, is how speakers are positioned in the room.

 

Edited by buddyev
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Are you able to provide a sketch and photo of your system in the room?  Different positions, toe in, bringing in speakers from the wall etc.  are things to try.

 

After that different DAC, measuring and equalisation, a preamp.

 

Agree with the others that changing cables are not likely to give much improvement...

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Guest jakeyb77

See if you can borrow a Klein DAC to run the BS into. 

You’ll get a great analogue sound for the best price around. 

Best option to try first. 

Also moving your speakers around is the cheapest and sometimes most effective 

 

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Speakers at $8k rrp 2.5 way crossover design look quite decent at doing the job. Perhaps try thinning out the bass to pronounce the mids by plugging the bass ports, bring out more into the room, away from corners, toe them into listening triangle and seat your ears between upper woofer and tweeters.

 

Amp tone controls set to flat etc.

 

Edit: room may be too boomy itself so do something there, don’t sit next to walls etc.

1FE632A2-CBB6-4A8D-B9B4-A3906300A8ED.jpeg

Edited by Al.M
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  • 3 weeks later...

As well as the speaker placement experimentation, mounting them on spikes or on a paver or other speaker isolation devices may also bring an improvement. 

Check the positioning so you don't create standing waves, there are guides on the internet to help  you with this. 

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I auditioned the Dali Rubicon 2 on a couple of different systems from Rotel, Creek, and Electrocompaniet.

These speakers had a soft mid range with more focus on treble and bass, so that could be the reason for what you hear.

The problem was much less apparent on the Electrocompaniet.

 

If you don't want to change speakers or amplifier, then your best options are room treatment or equalization. I don't think a DAC or cables are going to be enough. Then again you never know, you can always try.

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How much "weighter" would you like the midrange and vocals to be, a smidgeon or a lot more?

 

Atkinson gives measurement for a review set up here:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/dali-rubicon-8-loudspeaker

 

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I hope this does not offend anybody but every Dali speaker I have heard is slightly blurred and thin throughout the midrange and upper midrange.

I don't think changing a dac or moving them around will be much help.

Room positioning affects mid bass more so than mid range, although it is certainly worth trying.

If the magic still isn't there, you may need different speakers.

 

I understand that you mentioned this was not a possibility but I think what you have is  a pair of speakers that have certain characteristics of their own and because of this may also lack synergy with the rest of the system.

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5 hours ago, allthumbs said:

How much "weighter" would you like the midrange and vocals to be, a smidgeon or a lot more?

 

Atkinson gives measurement for a review set up here:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/dali-rubicon-8-loudspeaker

 

This review is very revealing about why there isn't much midrange; there's almost a -10dB difference in the midrange compared to the peaks in bass and treble!

Edited by Ittaku
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On 27/04/2019 at 2:06 PM, pond44 said:

Yep, first up is to move your speakers around. Don’t forget to mark the floor where the speakers are now, then try new positions, that part is free.

Yep maybe a room or placement within the room issue.  At least worth a try moving the speakers around.  Will only cost your time

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these are some excerpts from reviews,

In room
Bi-wire connected with Crystal Cable Speak Reference cables, the Rubicon’s 8 were placed on damped rubber feet rather than 8mm spikes also included, both to save my wooden floor and decouple the cabinet for optimum bass.  The best position in my room is 2.3m apart with a listening distance of almost three meters. The space between the back of the cabinet and the rear wall was only 35cm, enough to obtain an even response with even bass. DALI speakers are designed to have the flattest response off axis, so I did not toe them in.

The CEO of DALI is very fond of Class A amplifiers with little or no feedback, which is exactly what my Audia Flight 50 is, so it should be a good match

AT A GLANCE 
Plus 
Open, airy highs
Clean, tight bass
Big, generous soundstage 
Minus 
Setup takes patience for best results
Treble can be unforgiving

 

The pride of team DALI, however, is its dome/planar tweeter combination. It’s something of a mixed bag since it can be revealing of a bright or harsh recording, particularly when played back at high volume. A prime example of this was the alarm clock cut “Time” on the rock classic Dark Side of the Moon. I suspected the speaker’s on-axis response was somewhat tipped up, which may be why the company recommends the speakers be set up to fire straight ahead, placing a centered listener well off axis. DALI confirmed this, noting that the slightly rising on-axis response aids overall dispersion and linearity when the speakers are pointing straight ahead, but can indeed be slightly bright if you're sitting directly in front of the speakers. Again, in their words: "The benefit comes when you are off axis with the speaker. While the narrow 5 degrees on axis [window] is a little brighter, the other 175 degrees is much more even and detailed than would be with a traditional design. DALI recommends either a straight ahead orientation or a very slight toe-in of less than a few degrees." (The company also recommends spiking the feet when possible, which they say can generate a smoother overall response.)

i feel the earlier MF gear to sound warmer? meatier?, hard to describe but a fuller sound

i agree with previous posts, and from the above info, placement may be the easiest place to start

Edited by wen
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12 hours ago, Ittaku said:

This review is very revealing about why there isn't much midrange; there's almost a -10dB difference in the midrange compared to the peaks in bass and treble!

Yep. That quasi anechoic response "Figure 5" shows a very broad dip throughout the midrange area. This is why the reviews of this speaker generally show excellent favouritism towards bass and treble areas and is what Dali were probably going for. Unfortunately this is at the demise of midrange. This is similar to a loudness button that has been inbuilt into the speaker design and would sound better at lower volume levels . 

315DAR8fig05.jpg

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Are you running Roon thru your bluesound? It has HEAPS of DSP/Eq settings which are frankly beyond my knowledge base, but I'm sure some use of those settings by someone that knows what they are doing would be the easiest answer.

 

However I also agree even a moderately priced DAC will probably get you better clarity as well. I have heard Chord DACs are a bit lean sounding so maybe not the best to try. I've found Audiolab DACs to be excellent but just like the reputation of Chord, I found mine a bit on the lean side, but excellent for detail.

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@Ozflyer Looks like your bluesond product has basic bass/treble equalizer functionality. As this is midrange deficiency is a speaker issue, The cheapest option is to use an equaliser to increase the midrange, or in your case decrease the bass and treble a bit to make the mids more prominent. 

     Changing cables and dacs etc will change the sonic signature and quality of sound you hear and buying a DAC with a greater midrange signature will help "to an extent" and I hope that it does if you choose this path.

This is a link on how to use the Tone control funtion of bluesound products https://support1.bluesound.com/hc/en-us/articles/204636618

 

 

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