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Hi

 

I have a dedicated room that i am trying to improve the sound in

 

AVR: Yamaha RX-A2050
FRONT: Aaron ATS-5
CENTRE: Aaron CC-240 
ATMOS: 4x Yamaha NS-IC800
REAR: 2x Polk V-85 In Walls
SUBWOOFER: 2x SVS PB-3000
 

Issues

  • Bass is really boomy, lacks the authoritative smack int eh chest type feel
  • Mid range is quite lacking, plenty of lows from the subs, plenty of highs

 

The Room

  • The room is not ideally sized, it was the best i could do when i built the place. It measures 4.7m deep x 4.5m wide, the ceilings are 3.39m high.
  • The seating is at the rear of the room set 150mm off the ground on a "stage"
  • The doors are (unfortunately) hollow cavity sliders, and there is a window at the rear of the room.
  • The rest of the room has standard Pink acoustitherm R1.5 insulation fitted inside all walls and R2.5 in the ceiling

 

Photos of the room - https://imgur.com/a/WczrdpB

Room Layout - https://imgur.com/2gfBB5M

Proposed Treatment -   https://imgur.com/rjfycMm (red would be the panels and green would be the bass traps)

 

 Im considering the purchased of a miniDSP setup with REW, but learning first how to use all that 

 

Options

 

Is it worth doing this, just how much difference should i see?

 

thanks in advance

Edited by ttv6
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Move the couch forward as much as you can; every inch forward away from the rear wall will make a difference and should be an improvement.

 

Room treatments and EQ via a miniDSP will help.

You need to start measuring first with something like REW as you've suggested.

Only then you'll know what can and should be done.

Edited by Satanica
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hmm just some things i noticed.

 

ats5 and cc240 need to be further from the walls. these speakers produce a bit of bass anyway and you have 2xpb3000 in a small room= a lot of bass.

 

the centre should be angled up so the tweeter is pointing at your ears when seated, it seems to point at the bottom of the couch, the fronts could also be tilted a little. black rubber door wedges from bunnings can be used.

 

those 2 subs stuck in corners may not be the best position. i would try one in the left/right front stage and 1 on the opposite rear wall on either side of the couch (opposite or on the diagonal)

 

i would NOT be spending bucks on acoustic stuff until you have tried a few repositioning options.

 

from readings yammy avrs before the '80series have poor bass auto setup (my older '30 series definitely did and i doubt yours is any different.)

 

def get that couch off the wall

 

Edited by hopefullguy
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Further to Satanica and hopefullGuys excellent posts.........

 

ALL front speakers are too low for listening position........especially Centre.

Don't tilt Mains as it will ruin time alignment.......sit on pavers or similar instead.

 

Tweeters should be around ear height.

 

ALL speakers should be set to small with subs doing around 80 Hz and below and not set with vol too loud.

Corners for subs should be OK with proper Room EQ.

 

Run YPAO again after any changes........then fine tune manually.

 

Still look at room treatments once you properly identify all frequency areas that may need  attention.

 

GOOD LUCK

Edited by JohnL
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Thanks all, ill start with that!

 

Started sub crawl and determined that i get a significant gain in output if both subwoofers are at the rear of the room

 

Is this ideal? will involve me running some more cabling and wall plates, but the difference is so much that i had to pull the gains back from -5db each to -15db each

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Thanks all, ill start with that!
 
Started sub crawl and determined that i get a significant gain in output if both subwoofers are at the rear of the room
 
Is this ideal? will involve me running some more cabling and wall plates, but the difference is so much that i had to pull the gains back from -5db each to -15db each
Did you first move the couch?
The listening position determines the rest.
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15 hours ago, ttv6 said:

Started sub crawl and determined that i get a significant gain in output if both subwoofers are at the rear of the room

That makes sense because they are much closer to you.

 

15 hours ago, ttv6 said:

Is this ideal? will involve me running some more cabling and wall plates, but the difference is so much that i had to pull the gains back from -5db each to -15db each

It's ideal as far as the closer they are to you the less hard they have to work.

But probably not ideal in terms of overall frequency response.

If you can, placing one at the front of the room and one at the back will most likely provide the best overall frequency response.

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Thanks for that! Moved them around some more tonight (god they are heavy)

 

I got one at front left of room and one rear right, diagonally, re ran ypao and adjusted - it sounds like ****

 

I tried different phases, flattening out the EQ as baseline nothing i get really large amounts of low, as in i just hear room rattles like no tomorrow, but no impact or punch

 

Running them both at the rear of the room facing toward the front gets me the best results from an impact point but WHY

 

ideally i want them both at the front, next test is to move them in at the front so they not corner loaded, so swap with the speakers

 

Going to order a UMIK-1 to use with REW too

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why at the rear do they sound better?... well they dont actually care where they are in the room. to them you are facing the wrong way haha. anyway yes try swapping with the fronts as this has recently been done by a w.p. user with pb2000's and it worked.

 

room acoustics dont care about how a room looks and if wanting good sound neither should you.

 

lights out/movie playing/great sound= win.

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14 hours ago, ttv6 said:

Thanks for that! Moved them around some more tonight (god they are heavy)

 

I got one at front left of room and one rear right, diagonally, re ran ypao and adjusted - it sounds like ****

 

I tried different phases, flattening out the EQ as baseline nothing i get really large amounts of low, as in i just hear room rattles like no tomorrow, but no impact or punch

 

Running them both at the rear of the room facing toward the front gets me the best results from an impact point but WHY

 

ideally i want them both at the front, next test is to move them in at the front so they not corner loaded, so swap with the speakers

 

Going to order a UMIK-1 to use with REW too

This whitepaper is definitely worth a read.

https://www.harman.com/sites/default/files/multsubs_0.pdf

 

If you can make them fit having one at the front and one at the back in the middle of the wall or something similar is probably overall the best overall.

You can turn your subwoofers sideways if that helps fit them better.

 

A UMIK-1 and REW is a good move.

 

Do you have your speakers set to LARGE or SMALL and what are the crossover settings?

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There's so many variables when it comes to subwoofer positioning and subsequent integration that you really are flying blind without the ability to take baseline measurements and re-measure as you make changes.

 

I would start by buying the umik-1 and doing some initial sweeps. Test one sub by itself, then the other, then both combined and start to get an understanding of the interaction. At this point you can experiment with positioning, with the goal to find positions that are as flat as possible, but also compensate for the shortcomings of each placement. By that I mean, if one sub has a big dip at 50hz, that you ensure the other sub is measuring a good output in this range.

 

At this point unless you get really lucky with placement or your AVR can do a decent job of integration, some form stand alone bass management/EQ will likely be required for multiple subs. There's some affordable solutions out there, like the mini DSP 2x4, and most have guides online about the integration process.

 

Room treatments are definitely still something to pursue, but probably not for this particular issue. The broadband suff you've proposed is mainly used to clean up mid bass, mid range and top end reverb. If your goal is to address problem frequencies that are sub 80hz, you'll need some seriously large corner traps or a diaphrammatic solution tailored for for your specific problem frequency range. Depending on construction method you could also investigate converting your seating riser into a big trap.

 

Otherwise, what you're proposing will likely make the bass even more prominent, as the rest of the reverberations will be killed off, giving you that "dead" top end characteristic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Satanica said:

This whitepaper is definitely worth a read.

https://www.harman.com/sites/default/files/multsubs_0.pdf

 

If you can make them fit having one at the front and one at the back in the middle of the wall or something similar is probably overall the best overall.

You can turn your subwoofers sideways if that helps fit them better.

 

A UMIK-1 and REW is a good move.

 

Do you have your speakers set to LARGE or SMALL and what are the crossover settings?

Thanks for that, will have a good read, the UMIK is on its way!

 

Speakers are SMALL @ 80hz all around

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  • 3 weeks later...

G'day @ttv6

 

How is the room setup moving along?

Just wondering if you have adjusted the Subwoofer crossover frequency/ volume outputs or sought support at https://www.svsound.com/pages/customer-service  Highly recommended, I read.

There is also an SVS Subwoofer Smartphone App if that appeals.

 

Hoping for your best outcome.

Les

Edited by Uncle Seth
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If you’re sitting in the centre seat you’re right in the middle of the room and may be sitting in a null, hence the bass lacking authority.  The original plan with 4 seats is better because then you’re off centre.  Move seats forward off the wall, min 70cm if possible.   

 

One sub middle centre and one back centre might work better. 

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  • 9 months later...

Hey ttv6,

 

Nice setup you have there. Lot of us are just glad to have a dedicated room to play with.

 

Personally, I don't like Subs in corner as they become very boomy, I would swap the Front speakers with the Sub in both sides. This way you will have wider soundstage and sub away from the corner.

 

Other things to try for cleaner sound and tight bass that I personally found were best bang for buck for my own setup and experience.

 

1.  Couple (Spikes) or decouple your speakers, personally I go with decouple as it is easy and cheap to do.

Get some of these (https://www.bunnings.com.au/whites-50-x-50-x-12mm-anti-vibration-squares-8-pack_p3961977) from bunnings, and put them under all of your speaker's four corners. It was surprising how much difference in audio clarity and cleaner and tighter bass I had after using these.

 

2.  SVS Soundpath isolation feet for SUBs

https://www.amazon.com.au/SoundPath-Subwoofer-Isolation-System-4-Pack/dp/B00NCSQ5GK/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3PTNITCK6LCSJ&keywords=svs+soundpath+subwoofer+isolation+system&qid=1581636286&sprefix=svs+sound%2Caps%2C307&sr=8-1

Bit expensive but are really good for SVS subs and very effective at decoupling subs. A must have for subs.

 

3.  Acoustic panels

I went with frameless DIY panels, just screwed these panels (Option 2 for me) to piece of wood (https://www.bunnings.com.au/42-x-19mm-x-2-4m-tasmanian-oak-dressed-all-round-dar-select-grade_p0070217) and used 3m double sided tapes to hang them. This way, panels also have air gap and hang nicely. You could cover it with fabric (https://www.lincraft.com.au/muslin-natural) if you like. Cut them up in size and treat all walls or side and back wall at the minimum.

 

Option 1: https://pricewiseinsulation.com.au/product/32kg-autex-acoustic-panel/ (This one you can buy per pack in black, others have minimum order quantity).

Option 2: https://www.actfoam.com.au/collections/acoustics/products/martini-absorb-hd-acoustic-panel-2400x1200x50mm (This one comes in white and can buy individual panels instead of pack)

Option 3: https://www.newlinewhiteboards.com.au/acoustic-solutions/acoustic-wall-panels/autex-quietspace-wall-ceiling-panels-nude (This one comes in white and black and can be purchased individually instead of pack. This are very rigid so would be better for frameless hanging, but expensive.)

 

 

4.  REW/MiniDSP

Others have mentioned doing room measurements and applying EQ filter for your subs, This is really great tool to time align your multi sub and tame down any peaks. Don't forget to set your speakers to small and having a crossover at around 80hz. 

 

I had very high peak around 41hz due to the room mode and was not able to have sub volume any higher as that one peak overwhelmed it and overall bass lacked any punch. After REW/miniDSP, I was able to tame the peak down and had the overall sub volume up with room curve and now the sub sounds amazing with authority and punch and I have only one SVS-SB2000.

 

Also, manually increasing the distance of SUB on AVR by 4 to 8 feet is another trick, I learned from countless youtube video that improved the bass a little. Idea is to have bass play tiny bit earlier so they arrive at your listening position tad early. 

 

 

5.  Bass traps.

I am not so sure about this. As most of the professional and more experienced individual suggests that for any frequency below 100hz the bass traps needs to be in massive size and bulky. I found the REW/MiniDSP and decoupling were better alternatives for cleaner bass and also taming down certain frequency. For any dips in bass frequency, sub placement is the only way to go. I have those exact same foam bass traps from eBat and they don't do anything at all, waste of money. If you want to go with Bass traps, just stay away from foams and go with poly insulations. 

 

After all 4 points above, I am in love with my theatre room and comfortably play some movies close to reference level without any ear fatigues with clean dialogue in any scene in the movie. Also music listening in that room has become addictive and my system isn't any expensive or high end.

 

P.S. I went with polyester for acoustic panels and also made a suggestion of poly insulation for bass traps as it is safer to work with would be better to have in room instead of glass-wool or fibreglass insulations.

 

 

Edit: Just realised, I responded to almost a year old thread and may not be relevant anymore.

Edited by bluehalk
Responded to old thread clarification.
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On 20/04/2019 at 4:22 PM, Satanica said:

Move the couch forward as much as you can; every inch forward away from the rear wall will make a difference and should be an improvement.

 

Agreed. Also having owned the ATS4/ATS3/CC240/SUB240 if you can move a little further forward and get them off the ground a little more; spike the ATS5/CC240 and try and get 2-4cm clearance under them.

 

On 23/04/2019 at 4:11 PM, ttv6 said:

Speakers are SMALL @ 80hz all around

You need to set them to LARGE and change the crossover to 40hz on the AVR. Let the ATS5s work their magic. 

 

Edited by audiohippo
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