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Sub Sonic

Waveguide/horn & Compression Driver Suggestions Wanted

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Recently I’ve been playing with some large (12”) wide range drivers in sealed cabinets. Sometimes I love what the large wide range drivers do, particularly when sitting on axis, but one of the downsides of a larger driver is the narrowing dispersion at higher frequencies, which is definitely noticeable when relaxing, lying on the couch with my head to one side of “centre”.

Part of the beauty of DIY is being able to play with designs and modify them. Currently I am thinking about adding a horn and compression driver with a lowish XO point (1KHz?) and seeing what differences there are to the sound. One of the goals are to have a flatter power response, i.e. flatter on and also off axis, while keeping the sensitivity of the original 12” drivers, which is in the high 90’s. Another goal is to have a somewhat “relaxed” sound, without the off axis response characteristics of larger wide range drivers.

 

So… the plan is to try and identify a compression driver/horn combination that would work with the Fane 12-250TC driver:

https://www.fane-international.com/downloads/FANE-SOVEREIGN-12250TC-DS141117.pdf

 

Size of the horn is not too critical I can fit one that is 12” x 12” and a little larger if necessary. The Dayton unit below has come to my attention:

 

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-h110-1-constant-directivity-horn-90x40-1-3-8-18-tpi--270-300

 

And possibly one of the  drivers below:

https://www.parts-express.com/eminence-psd-2002s-8-1-titanium-driver-8-ohm-1-3-8-18--290-446

 

https://www.parts-express.com/bc-de250-8-1-polyimide-horn-driver-8-ohm-2-3-bolt--294-605

 

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-d250p-8-1-polyimide-compression-horn-driver--270-402

 

Cost is a consideration, I’d be inclined to go for a less expensive option if it were a reasonable one.

 

It's my first real play in the HE sandpit, so any suggestions would be appreciated, both about hardware and the application I have in mind. I have MiniDSP available but would like to eventually end up with a passive crossover.

 

Cheers,

 

SS

Edited by Sub Sonic

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This driver:

https://www.parts-express.com/peerless-by-tymphany-dfm-2535r00-08-1-compression-horn-driver-2-4-bolt-8-ohm--264-1420

 

This horn:

https://www.parts-express.com/b-52-phrn-1014-1-horn-10-x-14-bolt-on--299-2303

 

You typically want to avoid diffraction slots in the throat. This horn will need some EQ, but you can do it passively too (usually a parallel cap + resistor, in series with the driver)

 

The combination will play down to 1khz, you can cross higher too, but the smaller decent horns on partsexpress are expensive

Edited by oohms

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These are also another option:

https://www.parts-express.com/selenium-st200-super-tweeter--264-348

 

I would order these together with the large horn + compression driver. The large horn will cross much lower and has wider dispersion, whereas the supertweeter crosses higher (think 4-5khz) and has a narrower overall dispersion of about 40 degrees

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2 hours ago, Sub Sonic said:

Size of the horn is not too critical

The size of the horn is almost the most critical thing.    The size of the horn will dominate the off-axis response (and how that blends in with the off-axis response of the 12")

 

Using a horn which is the same width as your woofer, or a horn which is slightly larger, will keep you safe there.

 

2 hours ago, Sub Sonic said:

I can fit one that is 12” x 12” and a little larger if necessary. The Dayton unit below has come to my attention:

Use this one:

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-h6512-6-1-2-x-12-waveguide-1-3-8--18-tpi--270-318

 

Or, if you can find one (Part Express don't carry them any longer) a "SEOS" 12" waveguide.

 

 

The DE250 driver is well liked, if it fits your budget  (and will work well on that horn).

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My father is in the process of making a 2 way with the dayton dt250p and dayton h812 horn. He hasn't finished but on a trial run he said that he was very happy (i was not there) both very cheap and easily accessible in Australia.

As Dave said you will want to set your xo to where the directivity od you 12" matches the dispersion of the horn.

For r my father that's at roughly 1200 hz with a 12" peerless sls

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I've ordered a pair of Dayton D250P-8 drivers and a pair of Dayton H812 horns, looking forward to having a play with them :-)

 

https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/270-402s.pdf

 

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-h812-1-exponential-horn-100x60-2-bolt--270-304

 

Regards,

 

SS

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If it's not too late, wagneronline have both of those locally

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2 hours ago, oohms said:

If it's not too late, wagneronline have both of those locally

Thanks oohms, that’s actually where I purchased them, we have an account there 🙂 it was cheaper buying there than Parts Express although spare diaphragms are cheap at PE so I purchased some diaphragms  there. Just in case I damage anything or want to modify anything 🙂

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7 hours ago, Sub Sonic said:

and a pair of Dayton H812 horns

I would have stuck with the recommendation(s) for a horn with constant directivity

 

EDIT:  Ah, but if it's just local and cheap for a play, then (y)

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3 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

I would have stuck with the recommendation(s) for a horn with constant directivity

 

EDIT:  Ah, but if it's just local and cheap for a play, then (y)

Which ones were CD Dave? (Edit: the 6512?) More than happy to consider recommendations from someone who’s played with horns.

 

I was thinking about getting a couple of different horns to play with as they’re quite cheap, but WES didn’t have a suitable adapter for threaded horns. PE only had somewhat more expensive adapters so I haven’t gotten any as yet.

Edited by Sub Sonic

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I would have stuck with the recommendation(s) for a horn with constant directivity
 
EDIT:  Ah, but if it's just local and cheap for a play, then (y)
'all' horns CD or exponential etc beam. A CD will just start to beam later on (for a 1" driver around 8-9k).

Either the h812 or 6512 are both well designed, affordable and locally available (both through wagner and loudspeaker kit)

My advice, buy both and choose the one you prefer

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6 minutes ago, Wozza_Lee said:

'all' horns CD or exponential etc beam. A CD will just start to beam later on (for a 1" driver around 8-9k).

While truly perfect "constant directivity"  (or truly perfect anything) isn't happening ..... the name "CD" is intended to refer to a horn which has "constant directivity" ... ie. one which doesn't beam.

 

For example, this 12" horn.

 

seos12_horiz_map.jpg

 

 

 

The top octave(s) is very sensitive to horn geometry and driver match to the horn.   So sometimes you will see many horns which someone has claimed to be "CD", not providing CD performance due to incorrect driver choice, etc.

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22 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

 

seos12_horiz_map.jpg

 

 

I wish! 😄

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1 hour ago, Sub Sonic said:

 

I wish! 😄

Yea, I know right.  Suddenly they got hard to get (?!?)

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I have seen that particular chart before, it is measured at 0 degrees. No horn maintains CD.

Its physics, and (even if only using the limited human hearing range) simply not possible

a 20khz wave is 17mm in diameter so the small end of the horn would have to be of that diameter or less to be CD

As I said, even a perfect CD horn (as stated by Dave not possible) will only be CD until 8-9k

This is another one of those times in the audio world that the science gets replaced by marketing and opinion

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1 minute ago, Wozza_Lee said:

it is measured at 0 degrees

Eh?   It's measured across 90 degrees

 

1 minute ago, Wozza_Lee said:

a 20khz wave is 17mm in diameter so the small end of the horn would have to be of that diameter or less to be CD

Yes, in theory.

 

... but the waveguide/phaseplug that continues inside the compression driver becomes part of the horn .... so the horn does get smaller than the diameter at the horn throat.

 

 

The "step" we see about 16khz, is very likely the effect of a sharp discontinuity around the area the horn mates to the CD.

 

1 minute ago, Wozza_Lee said:

As I said, even a perfect CD horn (as stated by Dave not possible) will only be CD until 8-9k

I think you misunderstand something.    Chart posted is very CD right up to ~16khz.     There are even better examples - I was just in a rush.

 

1 minute ago, Wozza_Lee said:

This is another one of those times in the audio world that the science gets replaced by marketing and opinion

..... go on.

 

As I said.  What isn't CD about this horn (up to ~16khz, or so)?     The chart shows it IS.   Where is the "opinion" or "marketing"?

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17 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

There are even better examples

The JBL Ewave WG is even better. Only problem is it uses a screw on 1 3/8" CD which limits your options, some. I have a somewhat different design coming up next year with mine.

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28 minutes ago, A9X said:

The JBL Ewave WG is even better. Only problem is it uses a screw on 1 3/8" CD which limits your options, some. I have a somewhat different design coming up next year with mine.

Would you have any links to the JBL Ewave? A quick Google search didn’t turn up anything for me.

 

Cheers.

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Not right now. I can't VPN into my server at the moment for some reason. The JBL PN is 330088 from memory. Dayton, Pyle and another have done clones. They're as cheap as, maybe $30 ea locally.

I'm going to be away for most of the W/e. Remind me next week if I haven't gotten back to you.

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1 hour ago, A9X said:

Not right now. I can't VPN into my server at the moment for some reason. The JBL PN is 330088 from memory. Dayton, Pyle and another have done clones. They're as cheap as, maybe $30 ea locally.

I'm going to be away for most of the W/e. Remind me next week if I haven't gotten back to you.

 

Sure, and thanks.

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The horns and drivers arrived today, I’ll have a play with them over the weekend and see how they go.

 

5537A740-CA7F-4106-AEAB-DC48D84DFB9C.thumb.jpeg.15e6398322d1b01c69eb78ede600f694.jpeg

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