Jon1553552729 Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 For those of you who have the horn itch and want to scratch it... Go here for complete plans and recommendations. I am seriously considering building the Frugal horn, high waf and ridiculously cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Y Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Gidday Jon, Yup, good ideas. Some are quite complex tho, internally! Some good data on the Fostex (& other high sensitivity drivers) can be found on Nelson Pass's www.firstwatt.com site...go to 'Articles" & read the one on 'Current Source Amplifiers & Sensitive Drivers'. Look forward to hearing of your progress with this :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross F Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Jon, I hope you will keep us posted on progress and as a "local" I'd be very interested to hear the finished result. As Owen says, some of the internal partioning looks quite complex. A friend built a pair of the Chris Rogers TM line speakers in the mid 1970s which also has some fancy internals. A bucket of two of bitumen and a few kilos of good Kiwi sheeps wool covered the walls and interior For the Frugal Horn the trick will be to get the curvature of the back correct given that it will need to quite thick. A bit of boat building knowhow could be handy. Were I bit more able in this department I'd be into it as a retirement project. Have fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon1553552729 Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 Well, if I do build it I will let you know! The curve is relatively simple to do, in fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Y Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Gidday Jon, Which Frugalhorn variation appeals to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon1553552729 Posted January 16, 2009 Author Share Posted January 16, 2009 Funnily enough I was thinking of doing the Austin A166. This gives me a lot of choice as far as full range drivers are concerned - and the ability to chop and change without a lot of trouble. Want to hear a Lowther... or a Supravox... or a Fostex? Pop it in and away we go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Y Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Yah, that's a proven formula...rear horn loading, the rear mouth gives opportunity to vary rear wall augmentation of LF resp too. If you wish, you can search out David McBean's free HornResponse prgramme to model the horn. It also allows you to model the driver compression chamber size/shape to suit different drivers (input diff parameters). eg. Maybe you could oversize the chamber & design it so that you can later add in volume reduction as experimentation or if changing drivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon1553552729 Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 Its a Windows product, and I am a linux user... Looks like I will have to dust off Wine and have a look! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little blue penguin Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Hi Jon, that Frugel horn is a very elegant design, and I'm interested in building a set myself. My router has had a lazy time of late. I see that Madisound have the Fostex FE126E driver for USD43 which seems reasonable. Would this be a good place to buy them or are there better suppliers that anyone could recommend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon1553552729 Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 I would have no idea, I did a cursory spot check, and that seems to be about the price. Don't forget that is for 1! Too small for me given my room size; I shall be building the Austin II! If anyone can get them cheaper why not post here and let us know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Y Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Hi Guys, With a basshorn or TQWPipe cabinet, I would look for a driver with smooth & extended (unless you plan to add a tweeter) top end togther with gently falling midbass downward...from below about 500~200hz. When the bass cabinet lifts the LFs, then driver rolloff will avoid a severe midbass resp hump. (See Spacies' earlier thread...http://www.audioenz.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=6576&page=13 ) Looking at Nelson Pass's data (on the page mentioned above), it looks like the Fostex FE166E or FE206E might be good candidates. In fact, the Cain & Cain style Pipe cabinet (shown with FE166E) , may be a good design & a lot less work than a horn! OTOH horn style bass is very tonally 'informative' & natural...but will have limitations simply due to limited mouth size. Madisound are hard to beat for Fostex & for quick service. (I've built a couple of Lowther cabinets but hard to recommend Lowther due to cost & driver peculiarities.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon1553552729 Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 Owen Y;81448 wrote: Hi Guys, With a basshorn or TQWPipe cabinet, I would look for a driver with smooth & extended (unless you plan to add a tweeter) top end togther with gently falling midbass downward...from below about 500~200hz. When the bass cabinet lifts the LFs, then driver rolloff will avoid a severe midbass resp hump. (See Spacies' earlier thread... http://www.audioenz.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=6576&page=13 ) Yes, can be reduced by proper work but best to avoid completely! Looking at Nelson Pass's data (on the page mentioned above), it looks like the Fostex FE166E or FE206E might be good candidates. I was looking at the FE166E for this. The 206 means a larger cabinet (and thus lowered WAF) In fact, the Cain & Cain style Pipe cabinet (shown with FE166E) , may be a good design & a lot less work than a horn! OTOH horn style bass is very tonally 'informative' & natural...but will have limitations simply due to limited mouth size. Playing with a deflector can help here but in general I agree. Madisound are hard to beat for Fostex & for quick service. (I've built a couple of Lowther cabinets but hard to recommend Lowther due to cost & driver peculiarities.) Never used Madisound (or Lowthers) since this is my first foray into loudspeaker building. So interesting and I may well order off them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevo5 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Hi guys this thread has tweaked my interest.Ive never heard a diy horn running [or any for that matter]before and looking at those links has started my mind imagining what may become of the loads of Rimu and mdf sitting under my house. Whats the main sonic differance/advantage to horns? Less drivers? Theres a lot more construction involed compaired to conventional speakers so Im picking there must be attraction to many. Owen,I recall seeing some hansome looking half completed ply horns you once posted,Im not sure if you ever posted a completed pic [sorry if you did and Ive missed them] but they looked as if they took a lot of time and effort. Im currently involed in building power amps so wont be diving in any time soon,but Ive think I may be getting the early signs of 'Horn Fever' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon1553552729 Posted January 18, 2009 Author Share Posted January 18, 2009 steven bilbee;81467 wrote: Hi guys this thread has tweaked my interest.Ive never heard a diy horn running [or any for that matter]before and looking at those links has started my mind imagining what may become of the loads of Rimu and mdf sitting under my house. Whats the main sonic differance/advantage to horns? Less drivers? Theres a lot more construction involed compaired to conventional speakers so Im picking there must be attraction to many. Owen,I recall seeing some hansome looking half completed ply horns you once posted,Im not sure if you ever posted a completed pic [sorry if you did and Ive missed them] but they looked as if they took a lot of time and effort. Im currently involed in building power amps so wont be diving in any time soon,but Ive think I may be getting the early signs of 'Horn Fever' I nicked this off another website... Lower distortion at a given SPL: For an equivalent SPL, horns require a smaller diaphragm, and since distortion is directly proportional to the size of the diaphragm, a large diaphragm electromechanical transducer (conventional driver) has to move much more than a horned diaphragm in order to create the same SPL (sound pressure level). The larger the excursion, the worse the distortion. So, for a given SPL, a horn loaded system will generate much lower distortion than an electromechanical transducer. Faster transient response: Since the diaphragm is smaller, it is lighter and thus it accelerates and decelerates faster. This, in the real world means superb, fast snappy transients. As the excursion of the diaphragm is very small as compared to an electromechanical transducer, the voice coil is much smaller and again, this translates to a lower moving mass and again, results in fast transients. Higher SPL's with a given input wattage: Small voice coils also take full advantage of the flux in the pole piece gap. This increases the efficiency of the transducer allowing the amplifier to work with greater ease. Since the amplifier has more headroom and the driver handles peaks and high outputs more efficiently, horns are able to produce much higher SPL's before they distort. Thus, in the normal operating range, horn designs are faster, more dynamic, have a better transient response, have less distortion, and are easier for an amplifier to drive than conventional driver designs. Horns have impact! You feel the music, you become part of the music, and the music becomes part of you. The full-range phase coherent wave front of horns produces a lifelike presentation with tremendous dynamic range, as opposed to "polite", compressed presentation of low efficiency conventional driver designs. Horns will never sound veiled or compressed. Due to their inherent benefits of low distortion, high efficiency, fast and accurate transient response, and wide dynamic range, horn loudspeakers provide a pure, unadulterated musical presentation, a more organic and natural recreation of the acoustic event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Y Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 steven bilbee;81467 wrote: Owen,I recall seeing some hansome looking half completed ply horns you once posted,Im not sure if you ever posted a completed pic [sorry if you did and Ive missed them] but they looked as if they took a lot of time and effort. Gidday Steven, Yes, yes & yes... to those Q's! Jon is proposing a rear-horn loaded driver, for increased bass. It is also possible to front-horn load the driver. Hornloading essentially increases the SPL with the same watts input... or IOW, same SPL with much less watts. This is done by gradually matching of the driver air pressure to the room air through a horn 'flare'... rather than a sudden pressure drop/gradient of sound pressure coming off a regular driver on a flat baffle, ie. much more 'efficiency'. The trade off is much bigger cabinets or space req'd. Distortion depends mostly on the driver design IMO. The biggest advantage of horn spkrs IMO, is that they allow you to use simple, low power amplification...together with the clarity of a single driver, xoverless system (or very little xover at least). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon1553552729 Posted January 18, 2009 Author Share Posted January 18, 2009 Owen Y;81484 wrote: Jon is proposing a rear-horn loaded driver, for increased bass. It is also possible to front-horn load the driver. Exactly... The advantage is that you then get room interactions, you basically end up tuning the room! So therefore you can use smaller drivers for a given bass response because of the proximity of the wall (or other reflecting surface). If you use a front-loaded horn you don't get that (for obvious reasons). Owen is right, basically you will get an amazing live sound, with plenty of snap in transients, and a very high efficiency. This means that you can plug in a very low output amp - say on the order of the Yamamoto 45s (<2.5W) - and get a reasonable sound level. On the two previous occasions that I have owned horns I remember an amazing mid-range (totally fabulous, really), coupled with an extended treble, but not a lot of bass. Now with modern full-range drivers capable of going fairly low with treble going up to 22K I hope to recreate my old horn sound coupled with a better bass than previous efforts. On a side note, for the costs involved (~$500) I should get a huge amount of fun and satisfaction out of building them, improve my virtually non-existent wood-working skills, further my understanding of things loud-speakerish, and if they don't measure up to my KLS3's I can sell them and recoup some of my investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross F Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Jon;81488 wrote: Exactly... The advantage is that you then get room interactions, you basically end up tuning the room! So therefore you can use smaller drivers for a given bass response because of the proximity of the wall (or other reflecting surface). If you use a front-loaded horn you don't get that (for obvious reasons). Owen is right, basically you will get an amazing live sound, with plenty of snap in transients, and a very high efficiency. This means that you can plug in a very low output amp - say on the order of the Yamamoto 45s (<2.5W) - and get a reasonable sound level. I can remember back in the 1970s when there were a number of designs floating around using KEF drivers incl. the (in)famous Chris Rogers TM line speaker which I guess is what we are calling a front loaded horn. There was also a rear loaded folded horn desgn that used a single KEF B110 buried in the bowels of the enclosure. The B110 wasn't a high power speaker (15W) with a lower frequency of about 55 Hz but relied on the horn loading for bass extension and good quality sound with very little power as Jon says, although I never had the pleasure of hearing one. The commercial horn spoken of in hushed tones at the time was the Klipsch horn. Norm Williams (decd.) here in Wellington owned a pair and drove them with a small valve amp, as I recall. It was a very impressive sound. Incidentally what we are discussing here (I think) is a "folded horn" An unfolded would be one that filled most of the average room - and probably part of the garage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross F Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 I presume you Horn fans know about this guy http://www.thehornshoppe.com/index.html Apparently if you want "natural" this is the answer. Vocals a specialty but add a sub if you need floor rattling bass. Reviews are worth a read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon1553552729 Posted January 18, 2009 Author Share Posted January 18, 2009 Ross F;81493 wrote: I presume you Horn fans know about this guy http://www.thehornshoppe.com/index.html Apparently if you want "natural" this is the answer. Vocals a specialty but add a sub if you need floor rattling bass. Reviews are worth a read. Correct and in fact the frugal horn web site places a nod in their direction: By using a smallish driver (Fostex FE126), setting realistic bass targets, and by using a corner (which multiplies the effective mouth size by 8 times), just such a beast has been created. This is not the 1st time this has been done -- little in audio is and one of the more recent notable examples is Ed Schilling's justifiably famous Hornshoppe Horn. Its stellar performance has earned it a Stereophile Class C ranking. The genesis of the Frugel-Horn, arose from someone on an audio forum asking the question "DIY design similar to hornshoppe?". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon1553552729 Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 So I took the wife over what I was proposing to do, and from her it was pretty much ho-hum... Then she pointed at Curvy Chang and said what about that one!:eek: I pointed out it was 6 feet tall and she said I like it! So it looks like I might be building a BVR instead of a back loaded horn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Y Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 steven bilbee;81467 wrote: Owen,I recall seeing some hansome looking half completed ply horns you once posted,Im not sure if you ever posted a completed pic [sorry if you did and Ive missed them] but they looked as if they took a lot of time and effort. Will be offering them for sale sometime soon... I need the space around here! Pics & info are down this page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon1553552729 Posted January 20, 2009 Author Share Posted January 20, 2009 So after my conversation with my wife I had a look again and I think I shall be doing the Hiro. This features the Fostex 166E and has a power handling of 65W which I think is a suitable compromise given that I am bi-amping with my Quad 405-2s. I am also very aware of the costs since to get 200mm drivers is very expensive and the 166E are currently going for US$65 (Madisound). AT the moment I need to complete my Lenco PTP3 turntable conversion first and then I can get started on this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little blue penguin Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Madisound quoted me USD60 for postage on the 2 drivers that I was going to order from them which would have made the total cost NZ$277. I eventually stumbled across an Australian distributor which worked out much cheaper overall at NZ$216. The drivers were a few dollars dearer but the shipping was much much cheaper. So as long as they turn up I'll be a happy camper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon1553552729 Posted January 20, 2009 Author Share Posted January 20, 2009 Thanks for the tip... I shall do a comparison in due course. ($60 is a little steep!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundnut1553552715 Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 Jon;81598 wrote: So after my conversation with my wife I had a look again and I think I shall be doing the Hiro. This features the Fostex 166E and has a power handling of 65W which I think is a suitable compromise given that I am bi-amping with my Quad 405-2s. I am also very aware of the costs since to get 200mm drivers is very expensive and the 166E are currently going for US$65 (Madisound). AT the moment I need to complete my Lenco PTP3 turntable conversion first and then I can get started on this! i have been working on a pair of Hiro's for a we while. I have completed one and initial listening has been favourable. i will post pictures shortly. Must finish the other one as i am inclined to leave projects half finished as my attention wonders. They are heavy. I used 18mm ply, Imagine the weight with MDF. in retrospec maybe i should have chosen something smaller as they are imposing and i don't think my wife will let me install them permentantly in the lounge. But then i have always thought horns were meant to dominate a room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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