cafe latte 211 Posted November 16, 2020 Share Posted November 16, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Warren Jones said: I know how to measure runout it was spinning the platter on the motor that sent me measuring to determine what caused the vertical runout. I also measured TIR of the motor and spindle in the lathe. I posted because I thought people might be interested. That is an AA grade granite surface plate with the motor sitting on precision blocks accurate to 0.005mm. Look at the measurement of the motor mounting flange compared to the platter mounting face. Platter is not mine it's made for someone else which is why I needed to determine the cause, as when I indicated the platter in the lathe it measured less than 0.02mm TIR. Looking at your precision surface there seems from the pic to be sand or bits all over it which is what I saw. If measuring like this even a tiny bit of grit gives a massive error, but I am sure it is just a trick of the light. This way to measure a flat you need to be really careful. Anyway nice project, did you find the problem. Chris Edited November 16, 2020 by cafe latte Link to post Share on other sites
Warren Jones 288 Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 There are 2 issues with the motor, 1 - is the platter mounting face has runout, 2 - I think the interface where the spindle is pressed into the rotor is flexing and the bearing is flexing. Mounting the motor in the lathe and indicating in the spindle bore I can get 0.02mm deflection with my finger. It's not slop in the lathe, I checked that. I am planning to machine a new motor housing with a larger bearing now I have finished my Stainless platter. Link to post Share on other sites
Warren Jones 288 Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 I read a post that Wayne Colburn from Pass Labs made a few years ago about a Stainless Steel platter for an SP10 mk2 they had made. Pass Labs evaluation the SS plattered mk2 performed as well as a mk3. This sent me down the path of making a SS platter for my mk2. This is platter is made to stock dimensions, so it fits in a stock SP10 mk2 chassis. Pic 3 shows it mounted in my spare test mule mk2. In these pics I hadn't milled the platter mounting bolt recess. I'll add the measurements in the next post. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Warren Jones 288 Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 Being a trained electronics tech and metrologist I'm not into subjective evaluation. I believe if I can hear a difference I can measure it, so that out of the way. Here are the impulse response measurements of the the stock and SS platters. Pic 1 - Stock platter and rubber mat no clamp. I did the same test with the clamp and there was no difference in the response plot. Pic 2 - Stock platter diy acrylic mat with reflex clamp. Pic 3 - SS platter acrylic mat and reflex clamp. Breaking the measurements down 1 - 200mv P-P and decay takes 12 cycles 2 - 80mv P-P and decay takes 12 cycles 3 - 80mv P-P and decay takes 4 cycles Platter resonant frequency - OEM 40Hz and Stainless 16Hz. Not only does the SS damp resonance faster it also lowers the Fr to 16Hz. Is this audible in the music............YOU BET......... 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites
palexsia 847 Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 On 22/03/2019 at 11:47 AM, Peter_F said: Without a doubt the BEST spinner on the planet for the money. Idlers and belt drives are mere toys and farming machinery by comparison IME. Unfortunately the SP10 MKII is often the victim of audiophools who poorly implement them and blame the deck. There is no limit on their potential as they can be mated with arms and carts of the absolute highest calibre. I've owned well over 250 turntables and still have about 20, but the SP10 MKII is still my reference. My only 'upgrade' would be to a MKIII. Your tonearm is worth 3 0r 4 times more than your sp10 . Link to post Share on other sites
advanced concepts 3 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 Hello everybody , you all have very nice and different SP10 turntables , I just love it , for my everyday turntable I have a SP10 Mk2 and it has the obsidian volcanic glass base and looks and sounds good , It came with a EPA 100 arm and a denon dl103 MC cartridge . I also run a ortofon mc20 MC cartridge . when i got this turntable for joe ridiger at the audio connection it came with a EPA500 and 1 x epa-a501H and 2 x epa-a501L arms , he said it was special but I have never used them. I sold 1 x epa-501l arm and kept the rest . I am not sure what to do with these arms and I seek your counsel about this . I also have a Michelle gyrodeck and this is what I use as a reference turntable because it has a accuphase ac-2 MC cartridge . regatrds ivan Link to post Share on other sites
metal beat 20,549 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 On 02/12/2020 at 2:07 PM, palexsia said: Your tonearm is worth 3 0r 4 times more than your sp10 . and the SP10 mk2 can handle it easily. My SP10mk3 has a Thales Simplicity II tonearm fitted and it raised the SQ more than I could ever have hoped for. No real desire to look at more expensive tables anymore. YMMV 1 Link to post Share on other sites
palexsia 847 Posted December 3, 2020 Share Posted December 3, 2020 41 minutes ago, metal beat said: and the SP10 mk2 can handle it easily. My SP10mk3 has a Thales Simplicity II tonearm fitted and it raised the SQ more than I could ever have hoped for. No real desire to look at more expensive tables anymore. YMMV My original SP10 MKii , sold this to Max head room ‘ Jason . Keep it and love it never let me down. , very faithful TT . Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Thorens 529 Posted December 26, 2020 Author Share Posted December 26, 2020 Found an interesting review from a professional magazine in 1977. Sharing it here. 5 Link to post Share on other sites
Warren Jones 288 Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 Interesting reviews. 40years on the SP10mk2 is still amongst the best TT ever made. I had the opportunity recently to hear the SP10R back to back with a modified mk2 and the 10R was not an order of magnitude better, the 10R was also on a MinusK. The mk2 was a motor mounted in a resin/bentonite plinth with electronics housed separate. A better platter on the mk2 and I suspect it will be equal to the 10R Link to post Share on other sites
Warren Jones 288 Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 This platter is destined for the modified mk2 in my last post. The impulse response is about as good as gets. First trace is the OEM second is the Stainless/Delrin platter. Testing was done in the plinth in the first pic with different setup to the previous plots so these will differ, it's the relative measurement between the 2 platters that we are interested in. Damping of the SS/Delrin is far superior. The ringing before and after is an artifact of tonearm resonance I did these measurements with tonearm damping off. This platter doesn't fit a stock SP10 so I couldn't do the measurements in the previous setup. 5 Link to post Share on other sites
Warren Jones 288 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 My spare SP10 motor died. Found the FG, which are the coils that provide the feedback to the PLL had a broken wire. The solution was to dismantle and rewind the coils. Took a few attempts to get it right as I broke the very thin 0.1mm wire a couple of times. Adjust it and now my spare SP10 is working again. Motor dismantled, this thing rings like a bell, I think some sound deadening is in order next time I pull it apart. FG coils ready to be assembled. FG assembled ready to be soldered back in place. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites
metal beat 20,549 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 On 29/12/2020 at 7:45 AM, Warren Jones said: Interesting reviews. 40years on the SP10mk2 is still amongst the best TT ever made. I had the opportunity recently to hear the SP10R back to back with a modified mk2 and the 10R was not an order of magnitude better, the 10R was also on a MinusK. The mk2 was a motor mounted in a resin/bentonite plinth with electronics housed separate. A better platter on the mk2 and I suspect it will be equal to the 10R Interesting. A decent tonearm and the SP10R would go ahead quite a bit I would think. Link to post Share on other sites
Warren Jones 288 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Both the SP10R and mk2 have SME IV arms. From my measurements the stock mk2 platter resonates, the SS/Delrin dampens this resonance far better than just the SS platter alone which is better than the OEM. Technics made a point of showing platter resonance test results in 10R blurb. The 10R platter is extremely well damped. Once I get the platter to the user I will get him to do impulse tests between the 10R and the SS/Delrin mk2, this will be interesting. Nelson Pass uses an SP10mk2 with a stainless Steel platter as their reference TT at shows over their mk3. Wayne Corburn from NP piped in on the DIY forum about their SS plattered mk2, this is what sent me down the road of making a SS platter. Next plan is to have a gunmetal blank cast and I'll machine this up and see how it performs against the SS 2 Link to post Share on other sites
mloutfie 1,035 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) Testing the lead plinth with acrylic armboard from Warren. Loving the sleeker looks Edited January 6 by mloutfie 2 Link to post Share on other sites
ianjackson1969 19 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Hi everyone, Just thought I'd join in on this SP10 Mk2 appreciation thread. I've attached pictures of my rig as well as some of the cartridges I've collected. Cheers, Ian Jackson. 7 Link to post Share on other sites
advanced concepts 3 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 awsome setup love the cartridge arrangement . 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Warren Jones 288 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Nice rig and great cartridge lineup the EPC P205mk4 I would love one of them. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
ianjackson1969 19 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Hi Warren, I scored this cartridge off ebay and then got lucky when there was a NOS stylus offered for auction on Buyee, the EPS-P205ED4. Sounds exquisite. I must say my introduction to MC carts was the 310. I'd never heard one before and then I partnered it up with my SUT and was amazed. I made the analogy to a friend, that a quality MM is like a razor sharp blade, whilst a MC is like that same blade sparkling in the sunlight. Cheers, Ian. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Warren Jones 288 Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 You need to upgrade the platter on the SP10, you will astounded at how this will improve the sound. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Warren Jones 288 Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 SP10 Gunmetal platter. This turned out a little undersize (317mm) so I didn't put the chamfer on the edge to keep mass as high as possible. I need to adjust the OD of the mold plug. It looks great on the black SP10. 7 Link to post Share on other sites
Owen Y 718 Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 (edited) On 02/12/2020 at 10:59 AM, Warren Jones said: Being a trained electronics tech and metrologist I'm not into subjective evaluation. I believe if I can hear a difference I can measure it, so that out of the way. Observe (eg listen) first, measure second - is the basis of good scientific methodology. Cheers, Owen Dark Lantern blog - http://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/ Edited January 26 by Owen Y Link to post Share on other sites
Owen Y 718 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 Chaps - just a progress update on my SP-10 MkII journey... Now fitted with: - Terminator Linear tracking, Air-bearing tonearm - London Decca Super Gold with Decapod cartridge - Fidelity Research FR-64 arm - Koetsu Rosewood Signature cartridge I've had the latter 2 for many years, but never tried them together as a combo ? Cheers, Owen Dark Lantern blog - http://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/ 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Warren Jones 288 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Another platter upgrade, this time I bonded Derlin to the top of the gunmetal and machined it flat. This makes the gunmetal totally inert, hit it with a hammer and all you get is a dull thud. The 1kHz spectrum for the Delrin/GM is incredibly clean compared to the last plot which is the stock platter. The span is different but the sidebands on the OEM platter plot are obvious. Both plots were done using the same setup and the Ultimate Analog test LP. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
mattb 5 Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 I'm also a big fan of the SP10. With some help from Owen (in thread above) I built a stacked plywood, MDF with lead/resin loading, layered plinth and installed two tonearms - the Transfi Terminator with AT33EV cart, and an SME3012 with a Ortofon SL15 ELL in SPU headshell. Setup sounds excellent and compares favourably to my Luxman PD444 rig. Thanks to Owen for his assistance in laying out the plinth and tips on setting up the Terminator! 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Cammyboy0_0 78 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 On 29/09/2020 at 10:02 PM, Mr Thorens said: Dear SNA Technics team members. I’m looking into plinths. On eBay there is a seller of these. Has anyone experience with this model? TECHNICS SP-10 MK2 PLINTH ONLY IN 2X20MM.ACRYLIC PLUS 3MM. COMPOSITE ALUMINIU https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com.au%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F264610424911 Hi, I have recently become an SP10 mk2 owner and have one of these plinths. I can't tell you how it compares to other plinth types, but can tell you it sounds amazing. It is susceptible to condensation (can see it in the photos - could be the Qld summer) but apart from that it sounds amazing (previously owned two Linn LP 12's). Very impressed and totally understand how these turntables have their reputation - a source component of the highest quality. A keeper Link to post Share on other sites
Warren Jones 288 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 Welcome to the club, I was also an LP12 owner for many years, and you're correct the SP10 has huge potential. Link to post Share on other sites
Peter_F 1,777 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 My very nice SL1000 MKII... 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Cammyboy0_0 78 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 21 minutes ago, Warren Jones said: Welcome to the club, I was also an LP12 owner for many years, and you're correct the SP10 has huge potential. Hi Warren, thanks for your response - your SP10's look awesome - the parallel tracking arm is of interest to me as I also own an SL10 and whilst it is not in the same league as an SP10 - it does many things incredibly well and I can't help feeling that the parallel tracking arm is contributing significantly to this. Your work seems to be bearing this out ; also the new platter material /construction you are trying. Very interesting and so glad that someone is exploring the the boundaries. cheers Cameron Link to post Share on other sites
Cammyboy0_0 78 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 3 minutes ago, Peter_F said: My very nice SL1000 MKII... Hi Peter, Lovely SP10 - what platter mat are you using? cheers Cameron Link to post Share on other sites
Warren Jones 288 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 Here is my latest creation, my SP10mk2 Platinum with an extensive list of modifications. I have gone to great lengths to reduce and isolate vibration as much as possible. How does it sound - lets put it this way I am hearing detail in familiar music I have never heard before. And yes my EPA100 is modified too with a new CW stub SS CW and locking ring, with variable viscous damping. Resin Bentonite plinth. Remote mounted motor separate electronics Lower bearing brace Motor modified for 3 bolt mount Motor dismantled and internally damped Gunmetal platter with 20mm Delrin bonded to top Secondary spindle isolated from motor spindle 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Peter_F 1,777 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 1 hour ago, Cammyboy0_0 said: Hi Peter, Lovely SP10 - what platter mat are you using? cheers Cameron Hi Cameron It's an Audioquest sorbothane mat. I was quite skeptical when I got it but it grips the platter and record, and provides more platter dampening than that the original mat, which is twice as thick. Pete Link to post Share on other sites
Max Headroom 350 Posted March 1 Share Posted March 1 16 hours ago, Warren Jones said: Here is my latest creation, my SP10mk2 Platinum with an extensive list of modifications. I have gone to great lengths to reduce and isolate vibration as much as possible. How does it sound - lets put it this way I am hearing detail in familiar music I have never heard before. And yes my EPA100 is modified too with a new CW stub SS CW and locking ring, with variable viscous damping. Resin Bentonite plinth. Remote mounted motor separate electronics Lower bearing brace Motor modified for 3 bolt mount Motor dismantled and internally damped Gunmetal platter with 20mm Delrin bonded to top Secondary spindle isolated from motor spindle Superb work! Precision... Link to post Share on other sites
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