Ideas for room treatment

[Pipezzo]

 

Hi there,

 

We recently moved to an apartment so I wonder about possible room treatment. The attached picture shows the room that includes the living and dinings spaces + kitchen and hall. Ceiling height is approximately 3m. After trying different speaker positions I found that about 3m space between them gives the best sound. The glass walls have curtains. I have tried both with and without them. The difference is subtle. Without the curtains the sound is a bit more krispy which my wife and I actually liked more. We both listen to mostly classical music and some jazz. There is carpet on the floor and some pictures on the walls. I read that room treatment is one of the biggest contributors to getting the best out of the stereo gear. Given the information about my room, what room treatment would you recommend me to try? Thank you

[Hydrology]

The thing is, you haven’t indicated you are unhappy with the sound, so making recommendations would be tricky.

Would probably help to know what the equipment is you are using.

Boomy bass? Some bass traps would help.

Closed in sound? Some diffusion would help.

[Pipezzo]

Thanks Hydrology, my interest is not coming out of a clear problem. I cannot say that something is definitely wrong with the sound. My intention is more about experimentation in the specific room environment.

The gear I am using Raidho Emilie speakers, YBA Passion amplifier and CD, Scheu Analog turntable and Lehmann Audio Silver Cube phono stage.

[Guest Peter the Greek]

There's not much you can do in a space like that. EQ will be your friend. Get yourself a sub and play with its positioning.

 

I'd typically suggest putting absorbers behind the sofa given how close it is to the wall, but you can't do that with the window there

 

[Pipezzo]

Thanks Peter, I never thought about a sub for classical music. For some reason I believed they were more for home theatre. Do many people use sub just to listen to stereo music? It maybe a stupid question. 

Cheers

[Hydrology]

1 hour ago, Pipezzo said:

Thanks Peter, I never thought about a sub for classical music. For some reason I believed they were more for home theatre. Do many people use sub just to listen to stereo music? It maybe a stupid question. 

Cheers

People do, but it is a matter of taste. Peter's idea of room EQ is correct. Have a look at the MiniDSP products, such as the SHD:-

https://www.minidsp.com/products/streaming-hd-series/shd

 

This has analog as well as digital inputs.

[Guest Peter the Greek]

2 hours ago, Pipezzo said:

Thanks Peter, I never thought about a sub for classical music. For some reason I believed they were more for home theatre. Do many people use sub just to listen to stereo music? It maybe a stupid question. 

Cheers

Yep, used properly you shouldn't notice it (as in negatively notice it). Given the quality of your gear, maybe look at DEQX for EQ and calibration.

 

The thing with a sub....you can place it it the room where it'll sound best for bass. This is "never" (very rarely) the same location you want your left and right.

[Pipezzo]

Thank you guys. Looks like something worth exploring!

[Hipper]

Room treatment requires a fair amount of study. It is generally not attractive to look at and to do it properly you need large items, particularly bass traps which can be 40cm square and fill all four corners of a room and more. It's suitable for a dedicated room but less so for a living room.

 

The real issue is bass and how it behaves in the room - that applies for all genres of music. Generally in an untreated room you will get some bass frequencies sound louder then others at your listening position, and many frequencies will resonate - thudddddd instead of thud. Once you get 'thud' for all bass frequencies the higher frequencies are more noticeable and enjoyable. These higher frequencies also need treatment but that is easier, with smaller panels.

 

It's true that you can go a long way to treating bass and the rest with DEQX, MiniDSP etc., and also with muiltiple subs, but it still requires a lot of learning. DEQX is particularly complicated. MiniDSP has been designed to be as easy as possible but it's still not simple.

 

If you are really interested you should read further before committing to anything. My view, learnt in my domestic situation over fourteen years, is:

 

1. Positioning of speakers and chair.

2. Room Treatment.

3. Careful use of EQ to complete the job.

 

All done with copious measurements to see what is going on.

 

Some further reading if you wish:

 

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/monitoring.htm

 

http://realtraps.com/

 

https://gikacoustics.co.uk/

 

 

 

 

[Pipezzo]

4 hours ago, Hipper said:

Room treatment requires a fair amount of study. It is generally not attractive to look at and to do it properly you need large items, particularly bass traps which can be 40cm square and fill all four corners of a room and more. It's suitable for a dedicated room but less so for a living room.

 

The real issue is bass and how it behaves in the room - that applies for all genres of music. Generally in an untreated room you will get some bass frequencies sound louder then others at your listening position, and many frequencies will resonate - thudddddd instead of thud. Once you get 'thud' for all bass frequencies the higher frequencies are more noticeable and enjoyable. These higher frequencies also need treatment but that is easier, with smaller panels.

 

It's true that you can go a long way to treating bass and the rest with DEQX, MiniDSP etc., and also with muiltiple subs, but it still requires a lot of learning. DEQX is particularly complicated. MiniDSP has been designed to be as easy as possible but it's still not simple.

 

If you are really interested you should read further before committing to anything. My view, learnt in my domestic situation over fourteen years, is:

 

1. Positioning of speakers and chair.

2. Room Treatment.

3. Careful use of EQ to complete the job.

 

All done with copious measurements to see what is going on.

 

Some further reading if you wish:

 

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/monitoring.htm

 

http://realtraps.com/

 

https://gikacoustics.co.uk/

 

 

 

 

Thanks Michael,

 

By way of experimenting, I think I have found the optimum positioning of my speakers (see the pictures). The sound is transparent/detailed and wide (what I like). I think the soundstage is a bit shifted to the right but this must be due to the asymmetry of the room layout. Any suggestions about how to deal with this? As you can see in the pictures the wall behind the left speaker is curved glass and there is much more space behind the other speaker. The only corner in the room is in front of the left speaker. On the positive side, the curtains that you can see in the pictures can hide some room treatment materials.

 

Also, where would you put a subwoofer in the ranking that you have provided? I guess, together with EQ?

What do you think about Vandersteen 2Wq subwoofer? I read that this subwoofer integrates well into stereo systems.

 

Cheers

[Snoopy8]

4 minutes ago, Pipezzo said:

I think the soundstage is a bit shifted to the right but this must be due to the asymmetry of the room layout. 

Soundstage should not be affected by asymmetry of room, more likely positioning of speakers and sitting position. Try adjusting toe in of speakers.  Ideally, distance of left and right to listening spot should be identical.

[Hydrology]

Looking at your floor plan again, I would probably shift the listening position further back into the room ( where the dining table on the plan is). It will give you a more “symmetrical” space to work with and having walls front/back allows for room treatment placement. That piano deserves to be in the daylight!

As for treatment looking unattractive, take a look at the Artnovion range. Beautiful product. For a fee, they will even come back to you with a substantial assessment of the space. I’ve used them before with amazing results.

[Pipezzo]

5 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

Soundstage should not be affected by asymmetry of room, more likely positioning of speakers and sitting position. Try adjusting toe in of speakers.  Ideally, distance of left and right to listening spot should be identical.

Thanks Snoop, I will try

[Pipezzo]

2 hours ago, Hydrology said:

Looking at your floor plan again, I would probably shift the listening position further back into the room ( where the dining table on the plan is). It will give you a more “symmetrical” space to work with and having walls front/back allows for room treatment placement. That piano deserves to be in the daylight!

As for treatment looking unattractive, take a look at the Artnovion range. Beautiful product. For a fee, they will even come back to you with a substantial assessment of the space. I’ve used them before with amazing results.

Thank you. Their products do look beautiful

[sir sanders zingmore]

4 hours ago, Hydrology said:

Artnovion range. Beautiful product. For a fee, they will even come back to you with a substantial assessment of the space. I’ve used them before with amazing results.

 

Interested. How did they assess your space? Did they actually come over and do measurements ?

[allthumbs]

I know people are trying to be helpful but you started off with the speakers sounding good and a discernable change in the sound was apparent with the curtains drawn and open and your preferred one over the other. From the photos you have an appreciable collection of records, equipment and a rather nice looking piano so I would assume you have an ear that appreciates good sound and good music and can tell the difference when either are not.

 

Within the space of a few minutes you are now contemplating room treatments, subwoofer(s) and EQ.

 

An hour or so longer on this forum and you will be moving from your apartment to a spacious dedicated music room in a country house probably interstate.

 

 

[Hipper]

I've no experience of subs - I've just seen in my internet travels that some have success with using multiple subs, and it makes sense to me. Here's such an idea:

 

http://www.audiokinesis.com/the-swarm-subwoofer-system-1.html

 

Looking at the pictures of your room, there could be a lot of things going on that will affect the image position. These would be to do with the behaviour of the higher frequencies. There could be strange reflections of various items in the room - the piano, that round green table, and of course the curved window. You could try and draw a ray diagram to see what is going on. Imagine the sound coming from your speaker in a straight line, bouncing off some object so that it arrives at your ear. Normally the object would be the wall but you have none on one side and a curved one on the other.

 

One solution could be small absorbent panels on both sides, perhaps on feet so they could be moved when not in use. They can be made to look reasonably attractive with artwork on them, or some colours. They would be placed where the first reflection points would be. In that way the sound would be equally absorbed on both sides. You could experiment by using cushions somehow put in the right place temporarily.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hydrology]

9 hours ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

 

Interested. How did they assess your space? Did they actually come over and do measurements ?

Not my space. For clients.

[TerryO]

8 hours ago, allthumbs said:

I know people are trying to be helpful but you started off with the speakers sounding good and a discernable change in the sound was apparent with the curtains drawn and open and your preferred one over the other. From the photos you have an appreciable collection of records, equipment and a rather nice looking piano so I would assume you have an ear that appreciates good sound and good music and can tell the difference when either are not.

 

Within the space of a few minutes you are now contemplating room treatments, subwoofer(s) and EQ.

 

An hour or so longer on this forum and you will be moving from your apartment to a spacious dedicated music room in a country house probably interstate.

 

 

After reading your original post and the various comments after I would have to agree with allthumbs.

 

cheers Terry

[Pipezzo]

12 hours ago, allthumbs said:

I know people are trying to be helpful but you started off with the speakers sounding good and a discernable change in the sound was apparent with the curtains drawn and open and your preferred one over the other. From the photos you have an appreciable collection of records, equipment and a rather nice looking piano so I would assume you have an ear that appreciates good sound and good music and can tell the difference when either are not.

 

Within the space of a few minutes you are now contemplating room treatments, subwoofer(s) and EQ.

 

An hour or so longer on this forum and you will be moving from your apartment to a spacious dedicated music room in a country house probably interstate.

 

 

Aside from your ability to draw conclusions based on limited information, what should I take from your post? Am I right that you suggest that I should not contemplate room treatment, subwoofers and EQ? Sorry, but it is not clear to me in what way your post was helpful

[AudioGeek]

Was it a challenge to get the piano into an apartment of that size?

 

I like the previous suggestion of switching the piano and listening positions. But I think your space is too small for room treatments and subwoofers, in the sense the space may feel cluttered and it can be hit and miss without being based on measurement etc. I would suggest considering simplifying your system with some compact active speakers. I have heard Kii three set up in a small apartment and sounding wonderful - they have lots of flexibility with set up and tuning the bass is very easy, they go low. There are cheaper solutions from genelec as well. I have also seen second hand Adam speakers quite cheap on this forum.

Anyway, just another thought to consider a system that would integrate better in the space you have.

[allthumbs]

3 hours ago, Pipezzo said:

Aside from your ability to draw conclusions based on limited information, what should I take from your post? Am I right that you suggest that I should not contemplate room treatment, subwoofers and EQ? Sorry, but it is not clear to me in what way your post was helpful

@Pipezzo I didn't mean to be unhelpful, I was working with the same limited information that lead others to propose shifting furniture, room treatments of various kinds and quantity, room correction software and adding subwoofers.

 

But at no stage did you mention what you don't like about the sound of your current set up or what you want to improve.

 

But to each their own.

 

 

[TerryO]

13 hours ago, Pipezzo said:

Aside from your ability to draw conclusions based on limited information, what should I take from your post? Am I right that you suggest that I should not contemplate room treatment, subwoofers and EQ? Sorry, but it is not clear to me in what way your post was helpful

Some what ironically the contributors post that you thought was meant to be unhelpful is the one post in the thread that has more ‘likes’ by other members than all other posts in this thread combined.  ... 

 

Regards Terry

Edited March 18, 2019 by TerryO

[Pipezzo]

20 hours ago, Hipper said:

One solution could be small absorbent panels on both sides, perhaps on feet so they could be moved when not in use. They can be made to look reasonably attractive with artwork on them, or some colours. They would be placed where the first reflection points would be. In that way the sound would be equally absorbed on both sides. You could experiment by using cushions somehow put in the right place temporarily.

Thanks Hipper, I did think about experimenting with mobile panels

[Pipezzo]

13 hours ago, AudioGeek said:

Was it a challenge to get the piano into an apartment of that siz

Not at all )) the piano guys know their job extremely well. Grand pianos are transported on a side so they fit pretty much anywhere. This one has seen 5 houses since we bought it...