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Is there anything intrinsically wrong with bare-wire speaker connection?


Bronal

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22 minutes ago, Muon N' said:

Advancements for one reason or another, I can never go back to those horrid spring terminals, and I hate bare stranded wire, too easy for some to get a stray strand that bridges between terminals in some cases.

No need having an opinion then if thats the case. If termination isnt correct, one way or another, the babys been thrown out with the bath water.

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56 minutes ago, Ittaku said:

The point was purely to point out what is relevant about silver coated wires which was mentioned earlier.

Sorry... I'm not sure I understand (and am honestly not trying to be obtuse).

 

Silver oxide is not relevant to silver coated wires..... because in practise silver oxide does not form on silver coated wires.

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52 minutes ago, Bronal said:

why did it take so long for spades, bananas and fancy cables to come into use?

Lots of reasons.

 

Manufacturing ease/cost

Lack of market/consumerism

Relatively higher power amplifiers (kw+)

Cable termination (while probably the most important bit about a cable) is a relatively small factor in overall system performance

 

 

Back to reality.... If you're OK with snipping the end of your cable every year or so (to nuke the 'tarnish'), and have a reasonably good binding post .... then go for it.   All will be well.

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54 minutes ago, Bronal said:

I don't remember amp/speaker binding posts and spades/bananas being around until the early 1980s.  Also, until then, people seemed perfectly happy with various types of copper wiring.  Presumably all the science behind amp/speaker connection was known about long before then, so, question: why did it take so long for spades, bananas and fancy cables to come into use?

This was relative to the best time in Audiophilea. The 80's. Magical period of HiFi with out all the science crap. Even though a bit was thrown in now and then to satisfy the boring.

People started using their ears.

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Guest Muon N'
7 minutes ago, Wimbo said:

Lol, I love ya bro:yes:

Statement was relative to the stray strand.

Got ya', I was just messing about in my reply, I need more fun :thumb:

 

Things can get so serious round these parts.

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6 minutes ago, emesbee said:

Possibly silly question. If the tarnish that forms on silver is not silver oxide, then what is it?

Mostly silver sulphide... it is relatively not very conductive (at room temperature about 10,000x the resistance of copper)

 

Because they are very soft compounds (silver and the sulphide form) .... simply plugging it and unplugging can be enough to fix it as the silver kind of "smears around" at a microscopic level.

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1 hour ago, acg said:

thus making a better connection than either a spade or banana it would seem

I don't really see how.... although, I don't think it's the biggest issue out either ;) 

 

If you put wire through the hole, and do it up tight.... there's contact at the points where the wire touches (which is not everywhere).... if the wire deforms, then it i still unlikely to touch everywhere, unless it is the identical size to the hole.    Stranded wire, is a jump worse.    OTOH, a larger non-deforming connector (eg. a spade) which it up in there, has more contacting surface area, can be done up tighter (without deformation), and can be cleaned better (due to the flat, hard surface).

 

... but then of course, you have the wire to connector interface to consider.   This requires tools (crimping, welding, etc.) to be really good...  I don't see how 'diy' could cut it there.

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1 hour ago, Muon N' said:

Advancements for one reason or another, I can never go back to those horrid spring terminals, and I hate bare stranded wire, too easy for some to get a stray strand that bridges between terminals in some cases.

Spring terminals is not a bad idea.   Think about it, consistent pressure at the contact points,   You will never worry about having to check for lose terminals.  Unlike leaf spring like some banana plug.  Infact some quality plugs actually have spring type contact to ensure the connection is made, unlike certain old type spade connectors or even what the IEC connector uses.

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28 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

Air (from dead things and pollution)

I can see a new line of audiophile products here. Some sort of noble gas filled enclosure that seals over your cable connection points to prevent all forms of corrosive sound decay. 

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Guest Muon N'
Just now, Addicted to music said:

Spring terminals is not a bad idea.   Think about it, consistent pressure at the contact points,   You will never worry about having to check for lose terminals.  Unlike leaf spring like some banana plug.  Infact some quality plugs actually have spring type contact to ensure the connection is made, unlike certain old type spade connectors or even what the IEC connector uses.

Easily yanked out if the cable is caught by a foot or vac ect', they also don't grip that hard in a lot of the old amps, and the holes are so small so limit the wire gauge you can use without trimming.

 

Each to their own, I see no advantage for myself.

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25 minutes ago, Muon N' said:

Easily yanked out if the cable is caught by a foot or vac ect', they also don't grip that hard in a lot of the old amps, and the holes are so small so limit the wire gauge you can use without trimming.

 

Each to their own, I see no advantage for myself.

Yes, that’s the biggest gripe, the size of that hole that limits the gauge wire...  However if you trip, it would yank the wire clear off and that’s the least of the damage, if you trip over a screwed on wire, I’d hate to think what else it can damage  and I’m not thinking of stereo gear, more towards OHS and self preservation...

 

 

 

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I'm thinking of dispensing with spades or banana plugs for the speaker cable connections for my second system.  I'll use bare wires instead - just like the old days.
 
I'm wondering what the downside of this method of connection is (if any), and if there is one whether I'd hear it anyway.  After all, it is the most direct method of connection between cable and amp/speaker.


only downside is if you like to change speakers or amps a lot-like A/B testing. It’s a lot easier doing it with banana plugs.

i don’t i hear a difference with or without plugs. Take the less is more approach if it will help you sleep better at night.
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  • 2 weeks later...

Someone mentioned Pro-Gold - brilliant stuff. Lot's of 'received wisdom' in hi-fi is actually unscientific b/s. I always use Pro-Gold - 5 parts isopropyl alcohol to 1 part Pro-Gold - it is very expensive but this way you will only need to buy the one small bottle ever. 

 

When the wife/girlfriend has used up the little bottle that nail varnish comes in, clean it with alcohol and you have the perfect vehicle to store your wire protection juice in because the nail varnish always comes with a small applicator brush. 

 

The best connector is no connector - bare wire is fine, before fitting just brush the wire with the brush, the alcohol will evaporate leaving a micron fine coating. When I make i/connects I always use this method before fitting the connector shell of the RCA/XLR plug. 

 

As someone said with bare wire just make sure after a few weeks to make sure that the whole thing is tight, it's a good idea to tighten all your power plugs at least once a year as well.

 

 

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Guest Muon N'

Go one further and hard wire the lot, do away with RCA sockets/plugs and binding posts completely.

 

Edited by Muon N'
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Guest scumbag

5 pages of opinions. But I actually tried what the op is asking about. First day it was great but over the next few days the treble really rolled off. Not acceptable. So I then bought some quite well priced solid copper spades on ebay. Stripped the tin off the exposed ends with alcohol and abrasion, coated in pro-gold and then put on my spades tightly. The result was a sound that did not deteriorate over time. So no, I cannot recommend bare terminations on the dueland cable from my own experience. 

Edited by scumbag
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Guest Muon N'

That's interesting what you found with a bare connection in relation to the plated copper.

 

Damn! looking at properties of tin I came across a little fact, that Tin Chloride (Pure tin(II) chloride SnCl2) is added to some foods. (Sorry off topic)

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10 minutes ago, Muon N' said:

That's interesting what you found with a bare connection in relation to the plated copper.

 

Damn! looking at properties of tin I came across a little fact, that Tin Chloride (Pure tin(II) chloride SnCl2) is added to some foods. (Sorry off topic)

Tin is quite low in electrical conductivity too. That might have some effect on the way that electrons behave on the surface of a conductor and that might have a affect on sound. There are lots of rave reviews about the "vintage tone" of the Dueland cables so take that for what you will.  Having the insulating material around each strand could be a good thing but not IMO on the ends of the cable where you want to form as large and conductive an interface (not to mention stable) between the cable and the speaker / amplifier. 

Edited by scumbag
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Guest Muon N'
On 12/03/2019 at 8:39 AM, scumbag said:

Tin is quite low in electrical conductivity too. That might have some effect on the way that electrons behave on the surface of a conductor and that might have a affect on sound. There are lots of rave reviews about the "vintage tone" of the Dueland cables so take that for what you will.  Having the insulating material around each strand could be a good thing but not IMO on the ends of the cable where you want to form as large and conductive an interface (not to mention stable) between the cable and the speaker / amplifier. 

I haven't used the Duelund stuff and bare ends, only some original WE stuff, have always used the multi contact bananas with the Duelund wire.

 

Not sure if or how electron behaviour might come into play, as the signal transfer is transmitted outside the wire in the EMF created by the charge in the wire, it does my head in a little thinking about what's happening on that scale.

 

Someone posted this a while ago *(I think it was Eltech), at the time I was searching the Feynman Lectures where he hypothesises similar and explains that the actual electron movement in the conductor is at a snails pace (less) through a conductor.

 

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2014/02/05/3937083.htm

Edited by Muon N'
Added reference to member*
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