DAC vs Amp . . . which provides biggest bang for buck when upgrading

[aechmea]

It's important to have an amp that can cope with your speakers.  Many speakers have low sensitivity and/or low impedance and/or have wildly fluctuating impedance.  Most people underestimate the grunt needed to reproduce music at realistic levels via naughty speakers.  Choice of amp is dictated by your speakers.  It may take several iterations to find a suitable amp.  If your choice is between two amps that are both "suitable" then they should both be operating within their safe limits and should be pretty much indistinguishable.  Amps pushed beyond their comfort zone don't sound nice.  That's when they really start to sound different.

 

In my experience the differences between DACs is also pretty minimal.

 

Lets not forget the elephant of hifi.  Positioning within the room of speakers and chair, and the room geometry and its acoustics are even more important to get right than equipment.  Easier to buy a bright new shiny box though.

 

 

 

[A J]

4 hours ago, Aengel said:

Surely the DAC is more important provided your Amp is linked to your speaker set up.

You mean plugged in with chords?

[sir sanders zingmore]

15 minutes ago, A J said:

You mean plugged in with chords?

power chords?

[buddyev]

6 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

power chords?

What’s Pete Townsend got to do with this?

 

Upgrade the amp, biggest BFB for sure.

 

Edited February 23, 2019 by buddyev

[emesbee]

I agree that matching an amplifier to your speakers would be the first priority, to get the most bang for your buck. Having done that, upgrading your DAC would be more of an incremental improvement, if chosen well.

 

[sir sanders zingmore]

3 hours ago, two fold said:

It is hard to get this info at Harbeth com

This is an interesting point. The designer of the speaker himself says that amps pretty much don't matter on his speakers. Clearly that is not a widely accepted view, but just throwing it out there… if he's right then maybe your next upgrade step is speakers rather than anything else (to be clear, I personally don't agree with his view)

 

 

[barn door]

This is an interesting point. The designer of the speaker himself says that amps pretty much don't matter on his speakers. Clearly that is not a widely accepted view, but just throwing it out there… if he's right then maybe your next upgrade step is speakers rather than anything else (to be clear, I personally don't agree with his view)
 
 

Here is Alan Shaw himself discussing that “the more power you have available, the more exciting, dynamic, involving the performance becomes”.

Looks like he wasn’t expecting to be blown away by how power hungry the 40’s are.

[Jventer]

IMO in most cases it will be the amp.

As some have alluded - all systems need synergy.

The amp should suit the speakers and then the chain beforehand should suit as well.

IME I have had the best results by ensuring the amps and speakers work well before I would change the source equipment.

[two fold]

2 hours ago, barn door said:

Here is Alan Shaw himself discussing that “the more power you have available, the more exciting, dynamic, involving the performance becomes”.

 

 

 

 

Looks like he wasn’t expecting to be blown away by how power hungry the 40’s are.

 

That could be your answer

The sound difference between the m3 and the m6 is huge

Shaw hates big expensive amps and continually says 100 watts is enough. Is the M3 is close to 100 watts?

[barn door]

That could be your answer[emoji848]

The sound difference between the m3 and the m6 is huge

Shaw hates big expensive amps and continually says 100 watts is enough. Is the M3 is close to 100 watts?

Yep, very true, with the M3si being 85wpc, I wonder what the extra grunt of the M6si (220wpc) would open up in terms of SQ.

[two fold]

Best if you hear for yourself. 

I have compared M3 and m6 with compact 7,  obviously better bass,  the rest is better but going on memory hard for me to qualify.

The Harbeth pitch is that they are an easy load and any decent amp will suffice.

Edited February 24, 2019 by two fold

[woolltmoof]

I've A/B tested, using the Sescom RCA A/B switch, a range of difference DACs, and seriously can't tell the difference between any. At first I thought there was something wrong with the switch, and then used the jack on my laptop as one of the sources. There was definitely nothing wrong with the switch. For the DACs we're talking price ranges from the Khadas toneboard to the SMSL D1. I did A/B testing with headphone amps, so not really relevant here, but I'm guessing given the power involved the power amp is where you would see a difference. 

[Assisi]

There is no simple answer to this question.  All systems should start with the quality of the speakers.  To me, the better the better because that is what you are going to judge the everything else from.  Many posters in this thread have suggested the Amps Vs the DAC.  Because of finances, none or most of us cannot implement all the appropriate components in the context of relative quality in a system at the same time.  Therefore, you need a strategic perspective.  My Logic, intuition and experience tells me that it is best to go with source first after the speakers.

 

If the source is relatively lower quality to the rest of the components in terms of quality/performance, they are not going to compensate or improve upon what comes from the source.  I would rather know that the start and the finish of my system are right in the first instance and I can fix the middle later as finances allow.  It is about the potential over time.

 

I know that @Sir Sanders Zingmore  Trevor,  likes to be able to negate my references to wine and wine making.  Nevertheless, an analogy to me is that you cannot make a good or excellent wine out of bad grapes.  It all starts in the vineyard, the source.  Mind you, you can make a poor wine out good grapes with poor skills.

 

@woolltmoof

I am not aware at all of the DACs that you mention that provided no audible difference.  I did a search and discovered that they received positive comments.  They may be fine at a price point.  As well I note that the OP may be in the market for something that you mention given the rest of his system.   I do wonder what your reaction would be if you tried DACs that cost 10X. 20X, or even 50X the price, as to what your perception would be.  You may be surprised just may be able to hear differences between various high quality DAC sources.

 

John

Edited February 24, 2019 by Assisi

[woolltmoof]

53 minutes ago, Assisi said:

There is no simple answer to this question.  All systems should start with the quality of the speakers.  To me, the better the better because that is what you are going to judge the everything else from.  Many posters in this thread have suggested the Amps Vs the DAC.  Because of finances, none or most of us cannot implement all the appropriate components in the context of relative quality in a system at the same time.  Therefore, you need a strategic perspective.  My Logic, intuition and experience tells me that it is best to go with source first after the speakers.

 

If the source is relatively lower quality to the rest of the components in terms of quality/performance, they are not going to compensate or improve upon what comes from the source.  I would rather know that the start and the finish of my system are right in the first instance and I can fix the middle later as finances allow.  It is about the potential over time.

 

I know that @Sir Sanders Zingmore  Trevor,  likes to be able to negate my references to wine and wine making.  Nevertheless, an analogy to me is that you cannot make a good or excellent wine out of bad grapes.  It all starts in the vineyard, the source.  Mind you, you can make a poor wine out good grapes with poor skills.

 

@woolltmoof

I am not aware at all of the DACs that you mention that provided no audible difference.  I did a search and discovered that they received positive comments.  They may be fine at a price point.  As well I note that the OP may be in the market for something that you mention given the rest of his system.   I do wonder what your reaction would be if you tried DACs that cost 10X. 20X, or even 50X the price, as to what your perception would be.  You may be surprised just may be able to hear differences between various high quality DAC sources.

 

John

@Assisi

I said that I can't hear the difference, not that there was no audible difference, and I didn't say they were bad so I'm not surprised you came across positive reviews. Note the SMSL D1 was the most expensive I tested and Audio Science Review ranked it top 2 or 3, at least with respect to SINAD. The Khadas toneboard wasn't that far behind at 1/10 the price. The differences were there, but they weren't audible - both were in the -110dB range. The D1 cost 1200-1300 - how many can afford a DAC 10X that price comfortably? The 12k DAC may sound better, or it may just sound different (and I would jump at the opportunity to listen). A friend of mine says (with respect to a separate topic that is much more objective), "what does good look like?". Replace "look" with "sound" and I ask you, what does good sound like? Can something sound 10X better? If so, how do you measure, or even describe 10X better? Or 2X better?

 

What I found great about Audio Science Review is that it showed the Mojo performed pretty significantly worse than the Oppo HA-2SE, well after I tested. I couldn't hear a difference at the time I tested, yet everyone was salivating over the Mojo. I chose the Oppo because it was cheaper, prettier, easier to use, had better functionality and didn't feel like it was going to melt a hole in my pocket.

 

I was testing for the purposes of headphones, not speakers, and for clarity, once I moved away from a basic audio jack from a laptop or phone to a DAC/AMP with sufficient grunt to push the headphones, which wasn't hard, by far the biggest difference was the headphones. Not necessarily good or bad, but different, and I simply had a preference for one of the other, whereas another may have a different preference. Of the many factors that change with a change in headphones,  how many can be objectively measured? Looking at a frequency response chart is not going to tell me anything about sound stage. Now over to speakers and the complexity of room dynamics. Yeah, source matters, but during my testing my ear said the law of diminishing returns kicks in hard and fast for the equipment the financially average Joe would purchase. And finally, what do you mean by "source"? Everything excluding speakers, the DAC, the media, other?

 

Anywho, over and out

Kirk

[sir sanders zingmore]

2 hours ago, Assisi said:

My Logic, intuition and experience tells me that it is best to go with source first after the speakers.

I completely agree. The source - that is the recording - is far more important than pretty much any other component. 

[frednork]

Amp needs to complement speakers electrically and sonically. Amps can make a big differrnce as you go up the chain and can turn an average sounding system into something stellar.

 

An amazing dac will lift a system with less than stellar components also.

 

However the lifespan of a great amp in my view is likely to be much longer that of a dac that is considered at the time great. The life cycle of dacs is pretty quick at the moment and reminds me of how computers are contstantly getting faster and more powerful and cheaper. ie Dac are in the high growth phase of development. Amps have a much slower level of development.

 

Also in terms of absolute biggest improvement I have experienced, is with amp. But in the end everything is important

[Anthony1]

As you have good well matched gear to start with, I’d be talking with your HiFi shop to arrange to borrow the best interconnects and speaker cables they can get their hands on.
Just to check there’s not a bottle neck.
People that own power regenerators such as PSAUDIO, Gigawatt, claim it’s like adding a new amp, so that’s worth pursuing for sure.

[Mike13]

Amp for sure. I was stunned at how much moving from a Marantz AVR powering paradigm speakers to a Consonance tube amp improved the speakers.

 

Then I got an Elektra amp and it even made some small bookshelves sound excellent.

 

DACs I went from Bluesound Node 2, which I see you have,  to a Chord 2 Qute then to the Qutest. First step noticeable, 2nd step not as noticeable. But nothing like the amp upgrades. 

[Assisi]

On 24/02/2019 at 6:53 PM, woolltmoof said:

Yeah, source matters, but during my testing my ear said the law of diminishing returns kicks in hard and fast for the equipment the financially average Joe would purchase. And finally, what do you mean by "source"? Everything excluding speakers, the DAC, the media, other?

@woolltmoof  Hi Kirk,

 

The thread to me is about

“Which has provided the biggest positive impact in your setup . . . DAC upgrades or Amplifier upgrades”?

 

The person who asked the question noted later that the system included speakers (not headphones nor the headphone amp that you were using.)

You noted in your post that with headphones that you

“…..seriously can't tell the difference between any…..” of the DACS that you tested.

 

Difference is one thing benefit is another.  If you did not detect a difference than you probably did not perceive a benefit.  I am really talking about a benefit to the SQ.  My point was that there will be a or should be a differential benefit if there is a variation in the relative quality of DAC.  Mind you, to me price is an indicator but no an absolute of quality and not just In DACs.  As one does up the food chain you should get benefits.  It is definitely not a doubling or tripling etc of improvement though.  As you note, the law of diminishing returns always prevails.  I am certain that there will be a noticeable differential benefit between a $1k and a $20K DAC as long as everything in the chain is appropriate.

 

I mentioned source and in the context of this thread the DAC is the source.  The perception of what comprises the source can vary.  Before the DAC I consider that the quality of the power is fundamental to the final outcome.  To it comes before everything else.  That is a matter for another thread though.

 

I still would recommend the DAC as first step before the amplifier.  There is no vinyl in my system.  My sources are a mix of NAS, server, network player and a DAC.

 

It may not be possible to get something sounding 10X better or even higher.  You will know though what sounds seriously better when you hear a system comprising well-matched hiend expensive components properly setup in the right environment.  Unfortunately, it is only something that most of us can only aspire to and dream about

John

Edited February 27, 2019 by Assisi
spacing

[MattyW]

Depends on which is the weakest link in your system. Without a sufficiently revealing amp and speakers a great DAC may sound much the same as a far worse one. Likewise, a great amp and speakers will sound bad with a poor DAC up front.

 

In my experience every link in the chain is equally important and requires careful matching for the best results.

 

I find it easiest to get the right amp and speakers and work backwards from there

Edited March 8, 2019 by MattyW

[lemarquis]

In your situation It might be worth upgrading the DAC first. Your amp seems good but having had the M1 DAC myself (with a MF A 3.2 amp) upgrading to a Klein DAC (version 1) made a huge difference over the M1 DAC. 

 

A used Klein could set you back $400-600 (Klein I - Klein II) which would presumably cost less than an upgrade on the amp side.

Edited March 14, 2019 by lemarquis

[MattyW]

I've a Gieseler GroB + Kraftwerk PSU in my main system and love it.  Recieved this beast today though which I'm looking forward to trying in my second system, a Muji Studio DAC II, which is a Phillips TDA1541A-R1 based DAC with ECC88 tube output stage. My second system seems to get along well with these old Phillips based DAC chips.

 

[Guest Muon N']

Just had a look at that Muji inside, looks interesting

 

Edit: Tubes are just a buffer?

Edited March 14, 2019 by Muon N'

[MattyW]

2 hours ago, Muon N' said:

Just had a look at that Muji inside, looks interesting

 

Edit: Tubes are just a buffer?

The tubes can be switched off so I believe they are just a buffer,  yes.

[powerav]

Software as in HQplayer