Leo Veto Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 In my experience,the most important part of the crossover is finding the correct value resistor for the tweeter and I believe it is critical to within 5 decimal places past the ohm.For example: 3.3 ohm may be too loud while 3.4 ohm may be too soft and the actual value could be 3.38511 as I have discovered .Has anyone else discovered just how critical fine tuning the resistor is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 No? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwhouston Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-Lpad.htm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Probably worth bearing in mind every single driver will have slightly different characteristics as well, and if you find extreme accuracy is required for your resistor value, then you should be doing the same sort of extreme measurements on each driver and find the resistance that's perfect for each driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanArn Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 "L" pad attenuation as shown in the reference from mwhouston from the previous post, is the best method of correcting the sensitivity level of a tweeter. A series resistor reduces damping and is not effective in reducing impedance variations. The human ear can just detect pressure level changes of around 1dB under controlled conditions at the mid-range frequencies and given the normal manufacturing tolerances of speakers, a resistance variation of 0.1 ohm is unlikely to be noticed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 10 minutes ago, VanArn said: A series resistor reduces damping and is not effective in reducing impedance variations. Doesn't an L pad still reduce damping? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanArn Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 (edited) A valid question, Ittaku. A - 3dB pad is a common value and the series resistor would be around 2.3 ohms for an 8 ohm impedance tweeter; (the // resistor being 19.4 ohm). The xover network design should be one with an inductor connected from the input to the 2.3 ohm resistor and the opposite terminal of the tweeter. This indicates the use of a series first order network or a parallel second order network to ensure that the tweeter is damped below the crossover frequency. This is an effective design method and it is better than trying to tame the resonant frequency of a tweeter with an LCR network that invariably will be out of whack given that the tweeters Fs will vary with temperature and ageing. Edited February 13, 2019 by VanArn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 1 hour ago, VanArn said: A valid question, Ittaku. A - 3dB pad is a common value and the series resistor would be around 2.3 ohms for an 8 ohm impedance tweeter; (the // resistor being 19.4 ohm). The xover network design should be one with an inductor connected from the input to the 2.3 ohm resistor and the opposite terminal of the tweeter. This indicates the use of a series first order network or a parallel second order network to ensure that the tweeter is damped below the crossover frequency. This is an effective design method and it is better than trying to tame the resonant frequency of a tweeter with an LCR network that invariably will be out of whack given that the tweeters Fs will vary with temperature and ageing. Thanks but you didn't answer my question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanArn Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 The point I wanted to make is that a L pad in conjunction with the appropriate crossover network will allow electrical damping of a tweeters Fs which is so often neglected by the majority of designers. The simple answer is that the series resistor in an L pad will be lower for the same attenuation level than a series only resistor. If for example a -6 dB pad were required to adjust a dome tweeter with a 92 dB sensitivity to a bass/mid speaker of 86 dB sens. then the pad alone would provide a damping factor of 1 in the working range of the tweeter ( and considerably more at the Fs of the tweeter). For this case, the // resistor will equal the tweeters nominal impedance and the series resistor would be half of the nominal impedance. A series resistor, only would equal the tweeters' impedance and result in twice the impedance being presented to the xover network, which is an added complication. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A9X Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 On 13/02/2019 at 3:51 PM, Leo Veto said: In my experience,the most important part of the crossover is finding the correct value resistor for the tweeter and I believe it is critical to within 5 decimal places past the ohm.For example: 3.3 ohm may be too loud while 3.4 ohm may be too soft and the actual value could be 3.38511 as I have discovered .Has anyone else discovered just how critical fine tuning the resistor is? No, because it's nowhere near that sensitive. Besides, where are you going to get that exact a value? I have an excellent LCR meter that will measure to microohms but it's a $20k unit and you would have to buy hundreds of resistors and measure them in a temp controlled room to get that sort of accuracy. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BioBrian Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 On 13/02/2019 at 3:51 PM, Leo Veto said: Has anyone else discovered I recently changed some Jantzen Superior-Z caps to their (superior!) Alumen caps, and found the purer sound of the tweeter to need more volume. I changed the attenuation resistors to 0.2 Ohms lower, and got a better balance. This indicates to me that any artifacts/distortions of a lesser capacitor relates to diminished tolerance to the listener, but that's a separate issue. The 0.2 Ohms difference (just as a series resistor, not an L-pad) made a clearly audible difference for me. Of course, if you rob Peter you pay Paul; in this case there is less energy going to the mid and woofer, so the change can be in sound colour, not just tweeter volume. My point being that in this, and many other cases, I have heard a difference in attenuation changes as small as 0.2 to 0.5 Ohms. Smaller than that, I would be exercising my corrugator supercilii muscles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al.M Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 (edited) I think I have noticed similar to what the OP is saying but not to the fine decimal resistance points he is claiming. For example, without using an L-pad arrangement changing from 3.2 to 3.3 or 3.4 ohm there seem to be an change in SPL. However, I put this down to what I understand that incremental changes of 0.1 ohm do not result in similar or even incremental dB change, it can jump more than you think and that is why it seems to be audible. For example, jumping by 0.1phm doesn’t result in an even 1dB decrease, it might be more or less. Edited February 16, 2019 by Al.M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scumbag Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 (edited) On 13/02/2019 at 2:51 PM, Leo Veto said: In my experience,the most important part of the crossover is finding the correct value resistor for the tweeter and I believe it is critical to within 5 decimal places past the ohm.For example: 3.3 ohm may be too loud while 3.4 ohm may be too soft and the actual value could be 3.38511 as I have discovered .Has anyone else discovered just how critical fine tuning the resistor is? Do you test the sensitivity and impedance of your drivers to those tolerances? Edited February 17, 2019 by scumbag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ittaku Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 On 17/02/2019 at 12:17 AM, Al.M said: I think I have noticed similar to what the OP is saying but not to the fine decimal resistance points he is claiming. For example, without using an L-pad arrangement changing from 3.2 to 3.3 or 3.4 ohm there seem to be an change in SPL. However, I put this down to what I understand that incremental changes of 0.1 ohm do not result in similar or even incremental dB change, it can jump more than you think and that is why it seems to be audible. For example, jumping by 0.1phm doesn’t result in an even 1dB decrease, it might be more or less. Be aware that changing a resistor in series can change the crossover behaviour and alter the phase response at or close to the crossover point. That is likely having just as much if not more effect than the subtle change in amplitude. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al.M Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Ittaku said: Be aware that changing a resistor in series can change the crossover behaviour and alter the phase response at or close to the crossover point. That is likely having just as much if not more effect than the subtle change in amplitude. Good point, and that issue is also likely to what the OP may be hearing in small changes to the resistor value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scumbag Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, Al.M said: Good point, and that issue is also likely to what the OP may be hearing in small changes to the resistor value. Which begs the question, is the op measuring the frequency response or is he tuning the design by ear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 On 13/02/2019 at 3:51 PM, Leo Veto said: Has anyone else discovered just how critical Definitely. Driver levels, down fractions of a dB are very important in a speaker design. On 13/02/2019 at 3:51 PM, Leo Veto said: fine tuning the resistor is? Resistance to 5 decimal places is fantasy on multiple levels (that you need it, that you can measure it, that the ambient temperature does drift is unacceptably, etc.) Sure, the tweeter level to fractions of a dB is quite important..... but show me the circuit diagram where the resistor value to get such tight dB tolerances is so sensitive (?!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Veto Posted February 27, 2019 Author Share Posted February 27, 2019 I thought the resistor value of 3.37724 was extremely close,but after living with and listening to the speakers for close to a week I knew the tweeter was still too loud.After more series/parallel combinations I have arrived at 3.41339 and have lived with this now for over 2 weeks.This was the Eureka value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 In your circuit, how many dB change does the 0.04 ohm cause? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_m_54 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 I'd love to see a picture of the crossover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Veto Posted February 28, 2019 Author Share Posted February 28, 2019 13 hours ago, davewantsmoore said: In your circuit, how many dB change does the 0.04 ohm cause? I don`t know but easily perceptible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Veto Posted February 28, 2019 Author Share Posted February 28, 2019 10 hours ago, bob_m_54 said: I'd love to see a picture of the crossover. No need,it`s an ordinary LR network with 4 components plus the necessary resistors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Veto Posted February 28, 2019 Author Share Posted February 28, 2019 On 16/02/2019 at 6:41 PM, BioBrian said: I recently changed some Jantzen Superior-Z caps to their (superior!) Alumen caps, and found the purer sound of the tweeter to need more volume. I changed the attenuation resistors to 0.2 Ohms lower, and got a better balance. This indicates to me that any artifacts/distortions of a lesser capacitor relates to diminished tolerance to the listener, but that's a separate issue. The 0.2 Ohms difference (just as a series resistor, not an L-pad) made a clearly audible difference for me. Of course, if you rob Peter you pay Paul; in this case there is less energy going to the mid and woofer, so the change can be in sound colour, not just tweeter volume. My point being that in this, and many other cases, I have heard a difference in attenuation changes as small as 0.2 to 0.5 Ohms. Smaller than that, I would be exercising my corrugator supercilii muscles. Pleased to see others can detect differences as low as 0.2 Ohms but that`s only a starting point.You can discern much lower than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 5 hours ago, Leo Veto said: I don`t know but easily perceptible. 5 hours ago, Leo Veto said: Pleased to see others can detect differences as low as 0.2 Ohms but that`s only a starting point.You can discern much lower than that. We cannot say that someone will be able to detect X ohms .... it depends on the circuit, and how much dB difference the specific resistance causes in that circuit. Your circuit must be "strange", if 0.2ohm causes enough dB difference (>>0.1dB) to be audible) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Veto Posted February 28, 2019 Author Share Posted February 28, 2019 It isin`t strange It is a basic 2nd order LR 2 way network with 4 components and the resistor which I chose to the value needed by the tweeter to within 5 decimal places past the Ohm.After narrowing the value down to be between 3.3 and slightly higher,much trial and error brought me to the final and perfectly correct value of 3.41339 Ohms..As the tweeters were a matched pair bought from Parts Express,the only variable was the woofers and they were spot on which saved doing it all again for the second time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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